As one final hurrah, Dhoni should bat in the top 3

[Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

2005-2006

I just gave you an example. After the dismal 07 wc, he went into the Dhoni mode that we make fun of even today. His focus was on targetting 1s and 2s and maintaining a run a ball SR without taking risks and target the weakest bowler in the end overs. BTW show me one instance of anyone else who scored 100 runs in 10 overs. In fact scoring these runs were more tougher in 2006 than today.

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Real McCoy said:

I just gave you an example. After the dismal 07 wc, he went into the Dhoni mode that we make fun of even today. His focus was on targetting 1s and 2s and maintaining a run a ball SR without taking risks and target the weakest bowler in the end overs. BTW show me one instance of anyone else who scored 100 runs in 10 overs. In fact scoring these runs were more tougher in 2006 than today.

Dhoni’s biggest problem was not captaincy, captain cool/finisher image or hand eye coordination due to age etc, his biggest villain was the change in odi rules which forced teams to have attacking fields in the middle overs. He couldn’t do the sneaky 1-2 regularly against spinners to settle in before unleashing. That’s what actually enables the lunge specialist Dhoni we saw later on.

 

In T20 he might have 2-3 overs to settle in if he bats at 3, so that he can unleash more in the Rohit/Kohli/Dhawan/Rahul mould 

[Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Dhoni’s biggest problem was not captaincy, captain cool/finisher image or hand eye coordination due to age etc, his biggest villain was the change in odi rules which forced teams to have attacking fields in the middle overs. He couldn’t do the sneaky 1-2 regularly against spinners to settle in before unleashing. That’s what actually enables the lunge specialist Dhoni we saw later on.

 

In T20 he might have 2-3 overs to settle in if he bats at 3, so that he can unleash more in the Rohit/Kohli/Dhawan/Rahul mould 

Prime Dhoni would take sneaky singles even with more fielders in the inner circle. Its mainly his hand eye coordination and wrist work that failed. A drop and run turned into hitting straight to the fielder. Today there was a mid wicket fielder on the on side and no other fielders near him. He could have taken an easy single but he hit it straight to the man and the next ball he was dismissed.

Your logic is excellent according to you, attacking fields deny him singles. but you want him to bat at 3 when there is more chances of field being in. explain that one

[maniac]

24 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Prime Dhoni would take sneaky singles even with more fielders in the inner circle. Its mainly his hand eye coordination and wrist work that failed. A drop and run turned into hitting straight to the fielder. Today there was a mid wicket fielder on the on side and no other fielders near him. He could have taken an easy single but he hit it straight to the man and the next ball he was dismissed.

Your logic is excellent according to you, attacking fields deny him singles. but you want him to bat at 3 when there is more chances of field being in. explain that one

In T20 he is forced to hit out anyways. So if he takes some time to get Set, might as well do that in the first few overs and be ready for the later overs. That’s the point I am making.

[Rasgulla]

53 minutes ago, maniac said:

In T20 he is forced to hit out anyways. So if he takes some time to get Set, might as well do that in the first few overs and be ready for the later overs. That’s the point I am making.

Dude stop posting **** 

[SK_IH]

Would love to see him bat at 4 atleast, if next season gonna be his last. More brawns than brains would be cherry on top. It has been sad to see him being hurried & get out cheaply last few games. Hopefully he retires on a high next year, some helicopters & vintage jabs for sixes to sign off for one of the greatest heroes of Indian cricket 

[Real McCoy]

12 hours ago, maniac said:

In T20 he is forced to hit out anyways. So if he takes some time to get Set, might as well do that in the first few overs and be ready for the later overs. That’s the point I am making.

Maybe its your wish but Dhoni of today is not capable to play a 70 off 40 balls at the top of the innings. Thats the sad reality and Dhoni knows it. Judging by his small city in the 80s, he may be well into his early 40s by now not 39. He should play the cameos at the end of the innings from ball one. Maybe he will entertain maybe he won't. We have seen Watson in his prime making a mockery of Indian bowlers and pitches with both bat and ball. But look at him now. He does his best and shows his class on rare matches but his success is not consistent. Watson may well play his last match in a few days and so should Dhoni if not this year maybe next season.

BTW you haven't answered my questions.

1. Why do you think Dhoni is not a match winner?

2. Which other player do you know of that has come down the order in ODIs and scored 100 runs in 9/10 overs?

Kuch bhi

Edited October 30, 2020 by Real McCoy

[maniac]

3 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Maybe its your wish but Dhoni of today is not capable to play a 70 off 40 balls at the top of the innings. Thats the sad reality and Dhoni knows it. Judging by his small city in the 80s, he may be well into his early 40s by now not 39. He should play the cameos at the end of the innings from ball one. Maybe he will entertain maybe he won't. We have seen Watson in his prime making a mockery of Indian bowlers and pitches with both bat and ball. But look at him now. He does his best and shows his class on rare matches but his success is not consistent. Watson may well play his last match in a few days and so should Dhoni if not this year maybe next season.

BTW you haven't answered my questions.

1. Why do you think Dhoni is not a match winner?

2. Which other player do you know of that has come down the order in ODIs and scored 100 runs in 9/10 overs?

Kuch bhi

if you ask me what are Dhoni’s greatest knocks, 

 

I would say WC final (yes that was a finisher knock I will give him that)

140 odd vs Pak - batted in top 3

180 odd vs SL - batted in top 3

100 vs Pak in Chennai- the top order collapsed, so Dhoni had to play like a top order bat to build the innings and then go beserk

In T20??? Well I guess the knock vs Aus in WT20 semis but guess who was the star of that game?

 

The trend of chasing and finishing for India started big time in 2002 nat west with Kaif-Yuvraj partnership.

 

I still think Dravid-Yuvraj partnership in 2003 WC was what proved that even if Sachin is out after a battle, the rest can still can get the job done.

 

In WT20 2007 it was Rohit Sharma’s finshing in the final along with Gambhir’s knock

 

Yuvraj-Raina partnership vs Aus Qf 2011

 

Raina Knock vs Pak Asia cup 2009

 

Raina knock vs Pak WC 2011

 

 

CT2013,CT 2017,WC 2007,WC 2015 and 2019- don’t think there will be any knocks that will help your argument.

 

In fact I remember his batting in the end without other capable finishers costing more games than winning games like vs WI 2017, Eng 2018 and Eng WC 2019 and many more.

 

In recent Aus series it took Jadhav and DK to ease pressure while Dhoni was tuktuking at the other end.

 

Indias trend in recent times has been top 3 or kaput who have ended games on their own.

 

If you want to point to some bilaterals vs SL,Bangladesh then I remember Pathan bros pulling of an impossible win vs SL and obviously DK’s legendary knock vs Bangladesh in Nidhihaas.

 

This is what happens if you watch and absorb most of your cricket from IPL lol.

 

Real cricket fans have long caught Dhoni’s bluff.
 

Also not sure what’s touching your nerve, did I call Dhoni a useless player? I am

saying he is a better top order bat than a finisher relatively speaking and he is not India’s greatest finisher Yuvraj and Raina are.

[Real McCoy]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

if you ask me what are Dhoni’s greatest knocks, 

 

I would say WC final (yes that was a finisher knock I will give him that)

140 odd vs Pak - batted in top 3

180 odd vs SL - batted in top 3

100 vs Pak in Chennai- the top order collapsed, so Dhoni had to play like a top order bat to build the innings and then go beserk

In T20??? Well I guess the knock vs Aus in WT20 semis but guess who was the star of that game?

 

The trend of chasing and finishing for India started big time in 2002 nat west with Kaif-Yuvraj partnership.

 

I still think Dravid-Yuvraj partnership in 2003 WC was what proved that even if Sachin is out after a battle, the rest can still can get the job done.

 

In WT20 2007 it was Rohit Sharma’s finshing in the final along with Gambhir’s knock

 

Yuvraj-Raina partnership vs Aus Qf 2011

 

Raina Knock vs Pak Asia cup 2009

 

Raina knock vs Pak WC 2011

 

 

CT2013,CT 2017,WC 2007,WC 2015 and 2019- don’t think there will be any knocks that will help your argument.

 

In fact I remember his batting in the end without other capable finishers costing more games than winning games like vs WI 2017, Eng 2018 and Eng WC 2019 and many more.

 

In recent Aus series it took Jadhav and DK to ease pressure while Dhoni was tuktuking at the other end.

 

Indias trend in recent times has been top 3 or kaput who have ended games on their own.

 

If you want to point to some bilaterals vs SL,Bangladesh then I remember Pathan bros pulling of an impossible win vs SL and obviously DK’s legendary knock vs Bangladesh in Nidhihaas.

 

This is what happens if you watch and absorb most of your cricket from IPL lol.

 

Real cricket fans have long caught Dhoni’s bluff.
 

Also not sure what’s touching your nerve, did I call Dhoni a useless player? I am

saying he is a better top order bat than a finisher relatively speaking and he is not India’s greatest finisher Yuvraj and Raina are.

what a long post without answering 2 questions I asked twice. you should play for the LA Dodgers

[zen]

32 minutes ago, maniac said:

140 odd vs Pak - batted in top 3

180 odd vs SL - batted in top 3

100 vs Pak in Chennai- the top order collapsed, so Dhoni had to play like a top order bat to build the innings and then go beserk

Best in terms of what? It appears as if you try to judge every batsman as if they all play in the top order without considering their actual batting position 

 

For e.g. If Saha gets a 80+ batting in top 3, you make a comment like when will Dhoni get that when Dhoni plays in the lower middle order most of the time and as if Dhoni has to get 80+ too batting in the lower middle order

Even if a lower middle order batsman plays a match winning 50 off 30, you probably think “oh he only scored a 50 so how is that a good knock” - a miopic view! 

 

Here too you have started a thread on Dhoni batting at 3 as if him getting a 30 off 12 at the end  to take his side to above par score is not an important contribution for his side (and with the implication that he needs to play in the top order for his contribution to be important)  

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by zen

[maniac]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Best in terms of what? It appears as if you try to judge every batsman as if they all play in the top order without considering their actual batting position 

 

For e.g. If Saha gets a 80+ batting in top 3, you make a comment like when will Dhoni get that when Dhoni plays in the lower middle order most of the time and as if Dhoni has to get 80+ too batting in the lower middle order

Even if a lower middle order batsman plays a match winning 50 off 30, you probably think oh he only scored a 50 so how is that a good knock 

 

you only picked the first half of my post, I gave plenty of examples of great finishing knock by others who were actual finishers  by the way I am praising Dhoni as a top order bat

[zen]

8 minutes ago, maniac said:

you only picked the first half of my post, I gave plenty of examples of great finishing knock by others who were actual finishers  by the way I am praising Dhoni as a top order bat

 

What is an actual finisher? 

[maniac]

Just now, zen said:

 

What is an actual finisher? 

Thanks now we are getting somewhere. there is nothing called a specialist “finisher”. It is cut for roles and Dhoni is better cut for the role of a top 3

[Real McCoy]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

Best in terms of what? It appears as if you try to judge every batsman as if they all play in the top order without considering their actual batting position 

 

For e.g. If Saha gets a 80+ batting in top 3, you make a comment like when will Dhoni get that when Dhoni plays in the lower middle order most of the time and as if Dhoni has to get 80+ too batting in the lower middle order

Even if a lower middle order batsman plays a match winning 50 off 30, you probably think “oh he only scored a 50 so how is that a good knock” - a miopic view! 

 

Here too you have started a thread on Dhoni batting at 3 as if him getting a 30 off 12 at the end  to take his side to above par score is not an important contribution for his side (and with the implication that he needs to play in the top order for his contribution to be important)  

 

According to manaic, bevan and hussey should open to prove their worth to australian fans. aussie fans are more result oriented thats why they win all the time or atleast go for it. There is kind of a role for every position in the batting order and they should stick to these roles for success. bevan cant bat like ponting and hussey cant bat like mark waugh. thats why they batted at their respective positions. chappell mentioned dhoni as a result oriented player who has shown promise in his early days as captain and has gone off to old indian ways of complacency in the 2011-12 aus series. anything chappell says must be taken with a grain of salt but this snippet rang true to me. Dean Jones said Dhoni is the one who can make it to the Australian team of old back in 2011 wc.

[zen]

26 minutes ago, maniac said:

Thanks now we are getting somewhere. there is nothing called a specialist “finisher”. It is cut for roles and Dhoni is better cut for the role of a top 3

 

If you think there is no such thing as specialist finisher (or do not even know what it means), why were you going on and on about this? .... Btw, a finisher is a batsman who is usually slotted to bat in the last 20-33% of the overs - most often covering the batting positions of 5 to 7 (ideally 6 & 7 -> the lower middle order). 

 

2nd, most batsmen (including Dhoni) can do a better job batting in the top order where you get time to settle down. Why Dhoni bats (and performs) in the lower middle order is because Ind has had batsmen who can bat in the top order but were not effective enough lower down the order. Dhoni's greatness is in the fact that he could be effective in the lower middle order (a relatively difficult job) too.

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Batting position between 5 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 800

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Showing 1 - 14 of 14

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
MS Dhoni	2005-2019	266	225	66	7550	139*	47.48	8885	84.97	5	51	5
R Dravid	1996-2007	73	67	16	2257	103*	44.25	2999	75.25	1	21	2
KM Jadhav	2014-2020	57	42	15	1123	120	41.59	1070	104.95	1	5	2
RG Sharma	2007-2012	47	43	13	1128	95	37.60	1390	81.15	0	9	3
Yuvraj Singh	2000-2017	142	128	18	3756	139	34.14	4528	82.95	5	24	11
SK Raina	2005-2018	157	138	23	3758	106	32.67	4104	91.56	2	22	12
M Azharuddin	1985-2000	111	101	21	2607	111*	32.58	3580	72.82	2	11	1
A Jadeja	1992-2000	107	95	19	2475	119	32.56	3292	75.18	2	11	5
RA Jadeja	2009-2020	110	80	29	1511	87	29.62	1798	84.03	0	7	6
SR Tendulkar	1989-1997	37	37	7	873	82*	29.10	1058	82.51	0	5	3
RJ Shastri	1982-1992	79	67	15	1468	73*	28.23	1966	74.66	0	8	2
N Kapil Dev	1978-1994	196	176	34	3310	87	23.30	3566	92.82	0	12	13
RR Singh	1989-2001	97	84	17	1559	75	23.26	2173	71.74	0	7	4
M Kaif	2002-2006	77	65	12	1224	87*	23.09	1696	72.16	0	7	6

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by zen

[maniac]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

 

If you think there is no such thing as specialist finisher (or do not even know what it means), why were you going on and on about this? .... Btw, a finisher is a batsman who is usually slotted to bat in the last 20-33% of the overs - most often covering the batting positions of 5 to 7 (ideally 6 & 7 -> the lower middle order). 

 

2nd, most batsmen (including Dhoni) can do a better job batting in the top order where you get time to settle down. Why Dhoni bats (and performs) in the lower middle order is because Ind has had batsmen who can bat in the top order but were not effective enough lower down the order. Dhoni's greatness is in the fact that he could be effective in the lower middle order (a relatively difficult job) too.

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Batting position between 5 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 800

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 14 of 14

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
MS Dhoni	2005-2019	266	225	66	7550	139*	47.48	8885	84.97	5	51	5
R Dravid	1996-2007	73	67	16	2257	103*	44.25	2999	75.25	1	21	2
KM Jadhav	2014-2020	57	42	15	1123	120	41.59	1070	104.95	1	5	2
RG Sharma	2007-2012	47	43	13	1128	95	37.60	1390	81.15	0	9	3
Yuvraj Singh	2000-2017	142	128	18	3756	139	34.14	4528	82.95	5	24	11
SK Raina	2005-2018	157	138	23	3758	106	32.67	4104	91.56	2	22	12
M Azharuddin	1985-2000	111	101	21	2607	111*	32.58	3580	72.82	2	11	1
A Jadeja	1992-2000	107	95	19	2475	119	32.56	3292	75.18	2	11	5
RA Jadeja	2009-2020	110	80	29	1511	87	29.62	1798	84.03	0	7	6
SR Tendulkar	1989-1997	37	37	7	873	82*	29.10	1058	82.51	0	5	3
RJ Shastri	1982-1992	79	67	15	1468	73*	28.23	1966	74.66	0	8	2
N Kapil Dev	1978-1994	196	176	34	3310	87	23.30	3566	92.82	0	12	13
RR Singh	1989-2001	97	84	17	1559	75	23.26	2173	71.74	0	7	4
M Kaif	2002-2006	77	65	12	1224	87*	23.09	1696	72.16	0	7	6

 

Chasing a score of 400+ openers shouldn’t come with a mindset of oh we will get it to 200 and then let the “finishers” finish it. You still have to believe that you will get the 400+ target yourself. Similarly a guy in the middle order/ lower middle order should not have an attitude that top order failed so I will he irresponsible (my complaint against a few dons ;) ). Even if you are no.10 and no.11 you play according to situation. That is basic cricket etiquette  101.

 

Now Sure Dhoni is a decent bat and I don’t deny he has contributed well even in the lower/middle order along with other more or equally capable player and also being a keeper his utility was a lot more there and batting was a huge bonus.
 

However in fact this thread is pro Dhoni and not anti Dhoni as I always believed that he was good enough to be a top 3 bat. His best success proves that and since he has been a subject of ridicule with his so called finishing may be time to go back to basics. Not sure what is so confusing or why people are getting offended

[zen]

12 minutes ago, maniac said:

Chasing a score of 400+ openers shouldn’t come with a mindset of oh we will get it to 200 and then let the “finishers” finish it. You still have to believe that you will get the 400+ target yourself. Similarly a guy in the middle order/ lower middle order should not have an attitude that top order failed so I will he irresponsible (my complaint against a few dons ;) ). Even if you are no.10 and no.11 you play according to situation. That is basic cricket etiquette  101.

 

Now Sure Dhoni is a decent bat and I don’t deny he has contributed well even in the lower/middle order along with other more or equally capable player and also being a keeper his utility was a lot more there and batting was a huge bonus.
 

However in fact this thread is pro Dhoni and not anti Dhoni as I always believed that he was good enough to be a top 3 bat. His best success proves that and since he has been a subject of ridicule with his so called finishing may be time to go back to basics. Not sure what is so confusing or why people are getting offended

 

A post beginning with "Chasing a score of 400+ ...." merits the question - is it worth reading further? 

 

Batting in the top order requires no special qualifications apart from being a good batsman. Guys who have struggled to open in tests have opened in LOIs. Pinch hitters have taken up that role too. 

 

So again you are trying to make it sound as if batting in top order is a special skill and those who are actually performing a more difficult task of batting in the lower middle order are not as good as top order batsmen. And that Dhoni has to bat in the top order to make it appear as if he contributed - a myopic view of judging every batsman as if they were playing in the top order without accounting for batting positions. 

 

Dhoni does not need to bat in top order to contribute. He can do so by making the most of last 3-4 overs as well. And a inning of 30 off 12 in the lower middle order can be as good if not better than someone scoring 60 off 42 in the top order. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by zen

[maniac]

Just now, zen said:

 

A post beginning with "Chasing a score of 400+ ...." merits the question - is it worth reading further? 

 

Batting in the top order requires on special qualifications apart from being a good batsman. Guys who have struggled to open in tests have opened in LOIs. Pinch hitters have taken up that role too. 

 

So again you are trying to make it sound as if batting in top order is a special skill and those who are actually performing a more difficult task of batting in the lower middle order are not as good as top order batsmen - a myopic view of judging every batsman as if they were playing in the top order without accounting for batting positions. 

 

Dhoni does not need to bat in top order to contribute. He can do so by making the most of last 3-4 overs as well. And a inning of 30 off 12 in the lower middle order can be as good if not better than someone scoring 56 off 42 in the top order. 

it is called setting up a premise or an analogy which a writer like you is familiar with.

 

i never said lower order or middle order is not as important as top order. It was judging where a player will fit. For what it’s worth I don’t think Kohli would be good at no.6 either.

[zen]

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

it is called setting up a premise or an analogy which a writer like you is familiar with.

 

i never said lower order or middle order is not as important as top order. It was judging where a player will fit. For what it’s worth I don’t think Kohli would be good at no.6 either.

 

Unlike many Ind batsmen who have only been successful in the top order, Dhoni is good enough to bat anywhere 

 

As discussed an inning of 30 off 12 in the later stages of the inning w/ pitch slowed down, relatively old ball, bowlers seeking to hit yorkers, reverse swing, etc., can be better than a 60 off 42 in the top order. Dhoni can play both types of knock. It is just that there are many in the team who can hit 60 off 42 batting in the top 3-4. Dhoni's inning of a few 6s can bring greater joy and game changing success to his team!