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All Rounders Do Not Exist Part - II


Khota

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3 hours ago, Sooda said:

 

Was Botham that good with the bat , that he was delivering consistent match winning performances with it? I 

 

average of 33 , 14 tons in 103 tests ... 383 wickets...Definitely a bowling all rounder...all the 80's greats were...

 

I would suggest Hadlee was not good enough a bat to be called an all rounder, the rest were

 

In my opinion: NO PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF TEST CRICKET WAS EVER GOOD ENOUGH TO GET INTO THE TEAM ON EITHER DISCIPLINE. Not Botham, Kapil , Imran as batsmen, Sobers and Kallis as bowlers... and those are the top 5 ARs in history

 

Maybe they had "purple patches" when they were very good at either/both disciplines, or magic innings'... but Botham for eg. would not have cemented a place in the 11, purely as a batter,  if he could not bowl. 

 

In the first 6 years of his career Botham had 13 test centuries. That's more than what some specialist batsmen make in their entire careers. But after this, he played for 9 more years and scored only one century, finishing his career with 14. 

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How badly India needs an all rounder like Kapil. It's been almost 25 years since he has retired. How time flies.

 

During this 25 years we have seen Manoj Prabhkar, Robin Singh, Irfan Pathan, Hardik Pandya. Some of them faltered while taking the workload of all rounders and some just could not get above a certain level. I remember the print media also tried selling Laxmi Ratan Shukla as an all rounder to Indian cricket fans.

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Not entering the all-rounders existing part of this discussion it is a futile one. But Indian team needs some of its batters to roll its arms and take few wickets. Consider the previous generation where

 

Yuvraj used to bowl and take wickets. He was the MOTS in WC 2011

Tendulkar is a match winner on his day with his bowling arm. He has taken 5 fers against Aussies and Pakistan

Ganguly is the same as above. He is a regular partnership breaker.


Heck even Sehwag used to roll his arm over to ease bowlers workload. On any day captains like Gannguly, Dhoni and Dravid used to easily squeeze 10+ overs thereby reducing other bowlers workload and taking wickets.

 

Now compare that to the present generation of IPL multi million $ Bratty princes who can do only one job (i.e; batting and that too not adequately). No one can from the top order or the middle order can even bowl even 5 overs. Forget taking wickets they can't even stem the flow of runs.

 

Somewhere in between BCCI lost the plot or cricketers have started milking the system. I'm pretty sure this is done to lengthen their careers.

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25 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Not entering the all-rounders existing part of this discussion it is a futile one. But Indian team needs some of its batters to roll its arms and take few wickets. Consider the previous generation where

 

Yuvraj used to bowl and take wickets. He was the MOTS in WC 2011

Tendulkar is a match winner on his day with his bowling arm. He has taken 5 fers against Aussies and Pakistan

Ganguly is the same as above. He is a regular partnership breaker.


Heck even Sehwag used to roll his arm over to ease bowlers workload. On any day captains like Gannguly, Dhoni and Dravid used to easily squeeze 10+ overs thereby reducing other bowlers workload and taking wickets.

 

Now compare that to the present generation of IPL multi million $ Bratty princes who can do only one job (i.e; batting and that too not adequately). No one can from the top order or the middle order can even bowl even 5 overs. Forget taking wickets they can't even stem the flow of runs.

 

Somewhere in between BCCI lost the plot or cricketers have started milking the system. I'm pretty sure this is done to lengthen their careers.

Yes, at times some players at their peak, have punched above their strength in their secondary skill. For example the achieve ments of Yuvraj Singh in 2011 WC which you mentioned. 

 

Iyer is one bowler I remember having bowled in domestic matches, but he does not even bowls in IPL now. 

 

Jadhav experiment did not work out. He bowled 10 overs spell against Kiwis iirc. 

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7 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

How badly India needs an all rounder like Kapil. It's been almost 25 years since he has retired. How time flies.

 

During this 25 years we have seen Manoj Prabhkar, Robin Singh, Irfan Pathan, Hardik Pandya. Some of them faltered while taking the workload of all rounders and some just could not get above a certain level. I remember the print media also tried selling Laxmi Ratan Shukla as an all rounder to Indian cricket fans.

The reality is you don't need one because there is no one out there. Reality is Bats need to score and Bolwers need to take wkts. If there has not been one in last 25 years odds of getting one are non-existent in next 25 years.

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6 hours ago, Stan AF said:

Not entering the all-rounders existing part of this discussion it is a futile one. But Indian team needs some of its batters to roll its arms and take few wickets. Consider the previous generation where

 

Yuvraj used to bowl and take wickets. He was the MOTS in WC 2011

Tendulkar is a match winner on his day with his bowling arm. He has taken 5 fers against Aussies and Pakistan

Ganguly is the same as above. He is a regular partnership breaker.


Heck even Sehwag used to roll his arm over to ease bowlers workload. On any day captains like Gannguly, Dhoni and Dravid used to easily squeeze 10+ overs thereby reducing other bowlers workload and taking wickets.

 

Now compare that to the present generation of IPL multi million $ Bratty princes who can do only one job (i.e; batting and that too not adequately). No one can from the top order or the middle order can even bowl even 5 overs. Forget taking wickets they can't even stem the flow of runs.

 

Somewhere in between BCCI lost the plot or cricketers have started milking the system. I'm pretty sure this is done to lengthen their careers.

And ocassionaly they will come thru like you have mentioned. Day in day out it is the job of a specialist at that level.

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7 hours ago, Stan AF said:

Not entering the all-rounders existing part of this discussion it is a futile one. But Indian team needs some of its batters to roll its arms and take few wickets. Consider the previous generation where

 

Yuvraj used to bowl and take wickets. He was the MOTS in WC 2011

Tendulkar is a match winner on his day with his bowling arm. He has taken 5 fers against Aussies and Pakistan

Ganguly is the same as above. He is a regular partnership breaker.

 

Everyone can roll their arm over problem is it isnt easy for part timers anymore unless u do something diff like root or jadhav. Gill , shaw, iyer can roll arm over but they shud be kept max use of 1-2 overs. IF they have to do it regulalry then they shud bowl regulalry to gain control. These days u can put part timers on just like that with big bats , batsman like russell, pollard, 4 fielder , flat pitches and short boundaries. Maxwell also bowls regularly 

 

Game has changed massively now 

 

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48 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Everyone can roll their arm over problem is it isnt easy for part timers anymore unless u do something diff like root or jadhav. Gill , shaw, iyer can roll arm over but they shud be kept max use of 1-2 overs. IF they have to do it regulalry then they shud bowl regulalry to gain control. These days u can put part timers on just like that with big bats , batsman like russell, pollard, 4 fielder , flat pitches and short boundaries. Maxwell also bowls regularly 

 

Game has changed massively now 

 


Pandya gives me confidence when he needs to get quick runs but I don’t trust him in a 50-50 type situation or in a crisis situation.

 

 Now I don’t trust Iyer,Pandey etc either but they are in as specialist bats, if they don’t take responsibility and flop in such situations then they will and should be rightfully replaced.

 

Then the argument is but Pandya can bowl and they can’t.

 

Now will I trust Pandya to run through batting line ups on flat tracks or defend 5-6 runs in the last over or take top order wickets? I don’t think so.

 

Again I may not trust someone like Umesh Yadav or even Bhuvi Kumar but if they don’t again same as above they will be replaced but then the argument seems to be but Pandya can hit a couple of 6’s.

 

Sorry but Pandya is bits and pieces player right now. I have no problem admitting that he has some attributes that make him a great prospect for the modern game but still he needs to make a slot either as a bat or w bowler. Watson was an opener, Stokes is the no.4- no.5 is better bat than Pandey-Iyer at this stage,Shakib is a top 3 bat for his side and the strike bowler. What exactly is Pandya? A guy who can hit a couple of 6’s at death but even if he doesn’t he is in a thankless position or can bowl 5 overs on a bad day and 8-10

on a good? Seriously?

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6 minutes ago, maniac said:


Pandya gives me confidence when he needs to get quick runs but I don’t trust him in a 50-50 type situation or in a crisis situation.

 

Nobody playing his role wont, coz their game is high risk ....risk means there wud be failures to 

I hve seen enough to say that he ll try atleast.....ppl forget he was putting price on his wkt in england test series but with that much swing and heavy bottom hand it was always going to be a matter of time 

 

and why do u always think of crisis as if that happens to us 9 out of 10 games , what happens in 9 out of 10 games is need for quick runs 

when it has happened like ct 2013 or Wc 2019, Sa or eng atleast he has tried 

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

 Now I don’t trust Iyer,Pandey etc either but they are in as specialist bats, if they don’t take responsibility and flop in such situations then they will and should be rightfully replaced.

 

yea coz their game is not high risk which is why they bat up , its their job to build and pandya to expand ...

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Then the argument is but Pandya can bowl and they can’t.

 

Now will I trust Pandya to run through batting line ups on flat tracks or defend 5-6 runs in the last over or take top order wickets? I don’t think so.

 

5-6 runs these days to i wont even trust bhuvi or shami , 11 around both shankar n pandya have 

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

Again I may not trust someone like Umesh Yadav or even Bhuvi Kumar but if they don’t again same as above they will be replaced but then the argument seems to be but Pandya can hit a couple of 6’s.

 

isnt that needed ? what is this 1960s 

do u realise that scores have reached 350. what do u mean couple of sixes as if he hasnt scored a 50 ...btw he has a 100 in SL which rohit doesnt and almost a 100 in SA now dare u say it was a fluke ill show u the video when greatest talent cudnt even touch the ball in those conditon

 

Do u realise how much time our batsman waste , which is pandya becomes more important

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

Sorry but Pandya is bits and pieces player right now.

 

Like manju even u dnt the knw meaning of bits n pieces

he is a hitter and thats a specialist job in modern cricket , anyone who can bowl 8 plus over isnt bits n pieces anymore

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

I have no problem admitting that he has some attributes that make him a great prospect for the modern game but still he needs to make a slot either as a bat or w bowler.

 

doesnt he own 6-7 slot...find me a better option then him in those slots , sorry but even rohit kohli cant take slot number 7 ahead of it

u just fall for names that it ...role kya hota hai samajh hi nhin

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Watson was an opener, Stokes is the no.4- no.5 is better bat than Pandey-Iyer at this stage,Shakib is a top 3 bat for his side and the strike bowler. What exactly is Pandya? A guy who can hit a couple of 6’s at death but even if he doesn’t he is in a thankless position or can bowl 5 overs on a bad day and 8-10

on a good? Seriously?

 

so thats their role, isnt 6-7 a role

 

1,3, 5 are batsman and rest u dnt need batting or what ......srsly what accuman are u talking of if u dnt consider batting position post 5 . 

 

the minute u have doubts start remmbering those days when we had jaddu at 7 and dnt forget we still had dhoni n raina at 5-6 and yet got screwed up so every position matters

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Khota said:

The reality is you don't need one because there is no one out there. Reality is Bats need to score and Bolwers need to take wkts. If there has not been one in last 25 years odds of getting one are non-existent in next 25 years.

We did have Irfan Pathan, Prabhakar, Robin Singh and Hardik Pandya in between. Although none of them are certain starters in all formats and not in class of Dev, they were handy payers to an extent .

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Just now, maniac said:


can Pandya hit 16 6’s against Australia attack even if he opens?  I don’t think he can do that even if he gets 2-3 lives because on his best day he can get away 2-3 6’s max :hysterical:

 

0 6s (when batsmen go for such hits) at #6-7 by Rohit :hello:

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14 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Nobody playing his role wont, coz their game is high risk ....risk means there wud be failures to 

I hve seen enough to say that he ll try atleast.....ppl forget he was putting price on his wkt in england test series but with that much swing and heavy bottom hand it was always going to be a matter of time 

 

and why do u always think of crisis as if that happens to us 9 out of 10 games , what happens in 9 out of 10 games is need for quick runs 

when it has happened like ct 2013 or Wc 2019, Sa or eng atleast he has tried 

 

 

yea coz their game is not high risk which is why they bat up , its their job to build and pandya to expand ...

 

 

5-6 runs these days to i wont even trust bhuvi or shami , 11 around both shankar n pandya have 

 

 

isnt that needed ? what is this 1960s 

do u realise that scores have reached 350. what do u mean couple of sixes as if he hasnt scored a 50 ...btw he has a 100 in SL which rohit doesnt and almost a 100 in SA now dare u say it was a fluke ill show u the video when greatest talent cudnt even touch the ball in those conditon

 

Do u realise how much time our batsman waste , which is pandya becomes more important

 

 

Like manju even u dnt the knw meaning of bits n pieces

he is a hitter and thats a specialist job in modern cricket , anyone who can bowl 8 plus over isnt bits n pieces anymore

 

 

doesnt he own 6-7 slot...find me a better option then him in those slots , sorry but even rohit kohli cant take slot number 7 ahead of it

u just fall for names that it ...role kya hota hai samajh hi nhin

 

 

so thats their role, isnt 6-7 a role

 

1,3, 5 are batsman and rest u dnt need batting or what ......srsly what accuman are u talking of if u dnt consider batting position post 5 . 

 

the minute u have doubts start remmbering those days when we had jaddu at 7 and dnt forget we still had dhoni n raina at 5-6 and yet got screwed up so every position matters

 

 

 


There is no such role as 6-7. Cricket 101 you expect your top 5 to win the game or set up the game with the bat, you expect 4 bowlers to take 10/20 wickets and then you expect a wicket keeper to catch everything.

 

You expect that extra man to strengthen your bowling or batting by having a batsmen who can bowl or bowler who can bat. That person can score a 100 like a top 5 and give some support to bowlers when they are tired, if he is competent enough that is a bonus, Similarly if he is a bowler, you expect him to take wickets like a frontline bowler and may be can add some valuable runs. If he can score 100’s that is a bonus. That is the basic principle on which a person is called an allrounder.

Not someone who can hit a couple of 6’s which again is not a guaranteed thing, such high risk positions have a very small probability of coming of every game, which means on most day if that player cannot do anything else he will be useless  

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6 minutes ago, maniac said:


There is no such role as 6-7. Cricket 101 you expect your top 5 to win the game or set up the game with the bat, you expect 4 bowlers to take 10/20 wickets and then you expect a wicket keeper to catch everything.

 

:hysterical:

 

congrats ur basically saying 5 batsman and 4 bowler matter that means 9 players and 2 dont in cricket.....but its a game of 11 men . 

No in modern LOI cricket wk cant just only keep they have to get in as batsman to 

 

6-7 is specialist job which top order bat cant do and vice versa is the case 

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Not someone who can hit a couple of 6’s which again is not a guaranteed thing, such high risk positions have a very small probability of coming of every game, which means on most day if that player cannot do anything else he will be useless  

 

thats why its high risk there is nothing called 100 % success in anything, even rohit  game of slow start dont work on every day and the day it doesnt it ends up as debt on others . The other day it works coz it risk free but when u bat up u can afford it batsman batting low cant coz they dont have time specially with our top order who dnt leave time . To break simply.

All it takes is one ball for any specialist to be useless atleast pandya on that front also has other aspects to keep contributing 

 

rest i hve broken down on other thread 

 

 

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Ok let me approach it this way @Ankit_sharma03 @zen, let’s say you pick a guy to hit some 6’s, fair enough argument.

 

Now let’s say out of 10 games sample against the best bowling attacks, how many times will India be in a 250/1 or 275/2 type situation? Also bear in mind on those kind of pitches anyone can hit but that’s a different debate.

 

Now after you filter that out, out of those instances, how many times does a person having a high risk approach come off?

 

Since you guys have such love for numbers, calculate the risk-reward.

 

Keep in mind that this high risk player cannot even bowl or can only give you 4-5 overs on these pitches where hitting is relatively easier.

 

Lets see what you guys come up with :phehe:

Edited by maniac
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@maniac worries about collapses because the players he supports have hardly every performed in important matches v strong teams

 

Kapil - just one 50 in a KO game (v NZ in 1985 SF chasing a low total) in a career spanning multiple years and events 

Sachin - enough has been written about his performances v strong teams in WC F

Rohit - failures in 2015 SF v Aus, 2017 CT F v Pak and 2019 WC SF v NZ

 

Then we have SDP already averaging 50 in ODI knock out games :hatsoff: 

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2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Ok let me approach it this way @Ankit_sharma03 @zen, let’s say you pick a guy to hit some 6’s, fair enough argument.

 

Now let’s say out of 10 games sample against the best bowling attacks, how many times will India be in a 250/1 or 275/2 type situation? Also bear in mind on those kind of pitches anyone can hit but that’s a different debate.

 

7 times coz if we are not problem is at top and those 3 times well even ur top failed 

pandya atleast scored more then top 3 in both CT 2017 and 2019 Wc and in one occasion was highest scorer 

 

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Now after you filter that out, out of those instances, how many times does a person having a high risk approach come off?

 

there is always a 50-50 chances

how many times do u think Rohit slow starter apporach works 50-50 , that to he is at his peak but when he declines then ?

 

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Since you guys have such love for numbers, calculate the risk-reward.

 

Keep in mind that this high risk player cannot even bowl or can only give you 4-5 overs on these pitches where hitting is relatively easier.

 

ur saying as if he ll never ball 

 

I hve already given u numbers n shown u think like a pakistani setup whereas our goal is to beat england

 

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Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

7 times coz if we are not problem is at top and those 3 times well even ur top failed 

pandya atleast scored more then top 3 in both CT 2017 and 2019 Wc and in one occasion was highest scorer 

 

 

there is always a 50-50 chances

how many times do u think Rohit slow starter apporach works 50-50 , that to he is at his peak but when he declines then ?

 

 

ur saying as if he ll never ball 

 

I hve already given u numbers n shown u think like a pakistani setup whereas our goal is to beat england

 


so basically you are saying 3.5 out of 10, challo Pandya pass ho gaya. At least during my time that was the passing percentage, I think it is 40 or 50 % now :phehe:

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7 minutes ago, maniac said:


so basically you are saying 3.5 out of 10, challo Pandya pass ho gaya. At least during my time that was the passing percentage, I think it is 40 or 50 % now :phehe:

 

and those 7 games that teamw ill score big u wnt need pandya to score quickly , ofcourse u will 

 

Even rohit hit ratio is 5 out of times with less risk so 3.5 out of 10 when a guy hasnt even hit a peak isnt bad then add 1-2 with bowling/fielding as well so he goes past 5 now 

 

 

 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03
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