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Why isn’t Clive Lloyd rated as a batsman alone?

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13 hours ago, nevada said:

For a very long time, Lloyd held the record for the fastest century in the ODI WC, scored off 75 balls. It was broken only in 2003 by Richardson of Canada IIRC. When he started his career, legends like Kanhai and Sobers will still around. As he hit his prime, the more dashing Richards and Greenidge came along. In his youth, Lloyd was a very good fielder earning the nickname super cat but as he aged, his stooped shoulders, dour expression and spectacled schoolmaster face didnt win him many fans. Shiv Chanderpaul was a Whisker's distance away from being the highest run getter for WI. Would anyone rate him or pick him in an all time X1? Numbers are not everything.

 

Also, Lloyd the captain massively overshadows Lloyd the batsman.

Moreover, gora writers must not have been happy with him unleashing the most fearsome pace battery on their teams for the better part of a decade, inflicting one beat down after another in the literal sense of the term. So all this combination of factors is the reason Lloyd the batsman doesn't get much space in cricket columns.

Very well summed up regarding Lloyd the cpatain overshadows Lloyd the player.

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Earlier I had written extensively on this topic .An all-time great batsman without  a doubt.After Viv,arguably with Ian Chappell the best player of fast bowling of his era.

 

Clive held a bat like a bludgeon .He tackled Lillee and Thomson at their quickest  better than nay batsman averaging 46.9 in 1975-76.Even Viv did not equal that.For a period from 1981-85 he outscored Viv Richards statistically if you see test averages agaisnt India in 1983-84 at home and in India as well as in Australia and  home and awy series agaisnt England.In that time few skippers have ever been  abetter epitome of consistency as Clive.Averaging 82 in India in  1983-84 speaks for itself as well as above 50 in 2 series in Australia.Clive also has to his credit variably the best World cup and amongst the top 10 ODI innings of all time in the 1975 world cup final.Viv's best world cup innings has not equalled that effort.From 1981-85 the most consistent batsman in the world.

 

Against great pace he has a better record than even Lara or Sobers,when you see his scores facing likes of Lillee.Few batsman have ever made such a herculean comeback as Clive did when scoring 121 at Adelaide in 1979-80 that sealed the fate of the Frank Worrell trophy.Ironic that 2 years later he virtually reapeated the feat with an unbeaten 77 that made his team sail through.Few batsman ver adapted or tuned themselves as well as to the need of the situation as Clive.

 

What went against him at junctures was Alvin Kalicharan overshadowing him facing spin against India in 1975-76 and his relative inconsistency in Packer games in Australia in 1977-79.

 

Amongst left handers Lloyd is neck to neck with David Gower,,even in terms of playing express pace.In his time Zaheer Abbas was for  aperiod his equal or maybe inches ahead,but over no doubt Lloyd was ahead.For the 1970's team Ian Chappell by a whisker would have won my vote over Lloyd,as a skipper and batsman.

 

 

Amongst West Indies batting greats below Viv,Lara,Sobers,Headley,Weekes and Kanhai and about on par with Worrell.As a cricketer overall virtually in the same berth.Overall neck to neck with Steve Waugh in a virtual dead -heat .By a thin margin below Border and above Miandad as a cricketer alone.

 

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2 hours ago, Harsh Thakor said:

Earlier I had written extensively on this topic .An all-time great batsman without  a doubt.After Viv,arguably with Ian Chappell the best player of fast bowling of his era.

 

Clive held a bat like a bludgeon .He tackled Lillee and Thomson at their quickest  better than nay batsman averaging 46.9 in 1975-76.Even Viv did not equal that.For a period from 1981-85 he outscored Viv Richards statistically if you see test averages agaisnt India in 1983-84 at home and in India as well as in Australia and  home and awy series agaisnt England.In that time few skippers have ever been  abetter epitome of consistency as Clive.Averaging 82 in India in  1983-84 speaks for itself as well as above 50 in 2 series in Australia.Clive also has to his credit variably the best World cup and amongst the top 10 ODI innings of all time in the 1975 world cup final.Viv's best world cup innings has not equalled that effort.From 1981-85 the most consistent batsman in the world.

 

Against great pace he has a better record than even Lara or Sobers,when you see his scores facing likes of Lillee.Few batsman have ever made such a herculean comeback as Clive did when scoring 121 at Adelaide in 1979-80 that sealed the fate of the Frank Worrell trophy.Ironic that 2 years later he virtually reapeated the feat with an unbeaten 77 that made his team sail through.Few batsman ver adapted or tuned themselves as well as to the need of the situation as Clive.

 

What went against him at junctures was Alvin Kalicharan overshadowing him facing spin against India in 1975-76 and his relative inconsistency in Packer games in Australia in 1977-79.

 

Amongst left handers Lloyd is neck to neck with David Gower,,even in terms of playing express pace.In his time Zaheer Abbas was for  aperiod his equal or maybe inches ahead,but over no doubt Lloyd was ahead.For the 1970's team Ian Chappell by a whisker would have won my vote over Lloyd,as a skipper and batsman.

 

 

Amongst West Indies batting greats below Viv,Lara,Sobers,Headley,Weekes and Kanhai and about on par with Worrell.As a cricketer overall virtually in the same berth.Overall neck to neck with Steve Waugh in a virtual dead -heat .By a thin margin below Border and above Miandad as a cricketer alone.

 

imo Sunny was better than Viv, Ian and Lloyd in test format.

 

Kalicharan was indeed a treat to watch when he was here. Have to say he enjoyed batting against India and his parnterships with Grenide and Lloyd were brilliant. Shame such a class act was lost due to Rebel tour.

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15 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

imo Sunny was better than Viv, Ian and Lloyd in test format.

 

Kalicharan was indeed a treat to watch when he was here. Have to say he enjoyed batting against India and his parnterships with Grenide and Lloyd were brilliant. Shame such a class act was lost due to Rebel tour.

Actually, he did rebel tour because he was dumped by the WI cricket board at just 31-32. They sacked him as captain and gave him the cold shoulder as soon as Lloyd got back from Packer. 

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1 hour ago, nevada said:

Actually, he did rebel tour because he was dumped by the WI cricket board at just 31-32. They sacked him as captain and gave him the cold shoulder as soon as Lloyd got back from Packer. 

 

Don't think Kalicharan was dropped as captain because of Rebel tour because the Rebel tour happened somehwere during 83, whereas Kalicharan was dropped captain couple of years  before the Rebel tour. The main reason for him being dropped as player was lack of form which menat he scored less runs.

 

Kalicharan had also signed the deal but he withdrew from Packer series afterwards.

The money being offered by Packer was too much door the cricketers to deny the deal with Packer. 

 

Michael Holding who often criticizes WI players for participating in IPL was actually one of the 35 cricketers having signed Packer deal to play a series of 5 day Super Tests and one dayers for financial security. Many of these keep saying cricketers today are mercenaries but they forget that they too were once. Holding too is an example of double standards. 

 

From what I recall Wayne Daniel, Viv, Lloyd, Holding, Croft, Roberts, Fredrics, Garner, Julian, Collis King,  Haynes and Murray were some of the cricketers who went for Packer series. Kalicharan initially accepted Packer deal but withdrew afterwards.

 

Iirc the WI players who were part of Rebel tour were Kalicharan,Collis King, Sylvester Clarke, Grenidge, Rowe and some others whom I have missed in this list.

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On 11/25/2020 at 5:53 AM, Harsh Thakor said:

Earlier I had written extensively on this topic .An all-time great batsman without  a doubt.After Viv,arguably with Ian Chappell the best player of fast bowling of his era.

 

Clive held a bat like a bludgeon .He tackled Lillee and Thomson at their quickest  better than nay batsman averaging 46.9 in 1975-76.Even Viv did not equal that.For a period from 1981-85 he outscored Viv Richards statistically if you see test averages agaisnt India in 1983-84 at home and in India as well as in Australia and  home and awy series agaisnt England.In that time few skippers have ever been  abetter epitome of consistency as Clive.Averaging 82 in India in  1983-84 speaks for itself as well as above 50 in 2 series in Australia.Clive also has to his credit variably the best World cup and amongst the top 10 ODI innings of all time in the 1975 world cup final.Viv's best world cup innings has not equalled that effort.From 1981-85 the most consistent batsman in the world.

 

Against great pace he has a better record than even Lara or Sobers,when you see his scores facing likes of Lillee.Few batsman have ever made such a herculean comeback as Clive did when scoring 121 at Adelaide in 1979-80 that sealed the fate of the Frank Worrell trophy.Ironic that 2 years later he virtually reapeated the feat with an unbeaten 77 that made his team sail through.Few batsman ver adapted or tuned themselves as well as to the need of the situation as Clive.

 

What went against him at junctures was Alvin Kalicharan overshadowing him facing spin against India in 1975-76 and his relative inconsistency in Packer games in Australia in 1977-79.

 

Amongst left handers Lloyd is neck to neck with David Gower,,even in terms of playing express pace.In his time Zaheer Abbas was for  aperiod his equal or maybe inches ahead,but over no doubt Lloyd was ahead.For the 1970's team Ian Chappell by a whisker would have won my vote over Lloyd,as a skipper and batsman.

 

 

Amongst West Indies batting greats below Viv,Lara,Sobers,Headley,Weekes and Kanhai and about on par with Worrell.As a cricketer overall virtually in the same berth.Overall neck to neck with Steve Waugh in a virtual dead -heat .By a thin margin below Border and above Miandad as a cricketer alone.

 

Lloyd is far better batsman than Gower. He was far more devasting than Border who I would not rate high as he was more one dimensional batsman. Gower does not belong in category of great,Clive should be in top 10 WI batsman.Steve Waugh I would not call him ATG batsman either. He was a gritty player like Border but was again very one dimesional player.Gower , Gooch, Boycott, Zaheer, Javed, Kallicharan I would not call them ATGs , they were very good.

 

Zaheer is more closer to Gower than he is closer to Viv. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

 

Don't think Kalicharan was dropped as captain because of Rebel tour because the Rebel tour happened somehwere during 83, whereas Kalicharan was dropped captain couple of years  before the Rebel tour. The main reason for him being dropped as player was lack of form which menat he scored less runs.

 

Kalicharan had also signed the deal but he withdrew from Packer series afterwards.

The money being offered by Packer was too much door the cricketers to deny the deal with Packer. 

 

Michael Holding who often criticizes WI players for participating in IPL was actually one of the 35 cricketers having signed Packer deal to play a series of 5 day Super Tests and one dayers for financial security. Many of these keep saying cricketers today are mercenaries but they forget that they too were once. Holding too is an example of double standards. 

 

From what I recall Wayne Daniel, Viv, Lloyd, Holding, Croft, Roberts, Fredrics, Garner, Julian, Collis King,  Haynes and Murray were some of the cricketers who went for Packer series. Kalicharan initially accepted Packer deal but withdrew afterwards.

 

Iirc the WI players who were part of Rebel tour were Kalicharan,Collis King, Sylvester Clarke, Grenidge, Rowe and some others whom I have missed in this list.

Spot on, Holding is one of the biggest hypocrites. He talks all ideals but did what he could do to earn more money.I don't have any problem in any player making more money these guys along with Botham come across bitter people.

 

If tomorrow IPL gives him big bucks , he will sing praises about IPL too.

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