2020 ATP Finals

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, I6MTW said:

Read my statement again. There is no mention about Nadal's clay prowess. I was talking about OFF clay. 

ok my bad.

Either way, Nadal off clay is still easily better than anyone not named Borg or Sampras ( and Djokovic or Federer) not on their favourite surface.

Man has 7 grand slams off of clay - more than most have in their careers. Suffice to say he is one of the greatest players ever even off of clay.

 

[I6MTW]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

ok my bad.

Either way, Nadal off clay is still easily better than anyone not named Borg or Sampras ( and Djokovic or Federer) not on their favourite surface.

Man has 7 grand slams off of clay - more than most have in their careers. Suffice to say he is one of the greatest players ever even off of clay.

 

He is a decent player off clay, no doubt. But half of his off clay Slams are because of easy draws, and aided with choking of opponents. Eg. 2017 US Open, not a single top 25 player faced in his victory. There are a few more. 

 

Of course, he's probably top 15 all time on HCs, and maybe top 20-25 on grass. So that by no means is bad. 

[Muloghonto]

41 minutes ago, I6MTW said:

He is a decent player off clay, no doubt. But half of his off clay Slams are because of easy draws, and aided with choking of opponents. Eg. 2017 US Open, not a single top 25 player faced in his victory. There are a few more. 

 

Of course, he's probably top 15 all time on HCs, and maybe top 20-25 on grass. So that by no means is bad. 

As I said, except for Borg Sampras Federer and Djokovic I can’t think of ANY tennis player in the open era stronger than Nadal on their second best surface. 

[I6MTW]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

As I said, except for Borg Sampras Federer and Djokovic I can’t think of ANY tennis player in the open era stronger than Nadal on their second best surface. 

What about Lendl? Agassi was quite strong on grass, made a few Wimbledon finals, and would've won more if not for Sampras, or his vanity(concerned about his wig falling off instead of actually winning, in his first W final).

McEnroe as well, his second best surface was HC and he dominated Borg in HC and Borg was a great HC player, his lack of a HC GS was more of McEnroe being clutch in the Us Open Finals.

 

[Muloghonto]

23 minutes ago, I6MTW said:

What about Lendl? Agassi was quite strong on grass, made a few Wimbledon finals, and would've won more if not for Sampras, or his vanity(concerned about his wig falling off instead of actually winning, in his first W final).

McEnroe as well, his second best surface was HC and he dominated Borg in HC and Borg was a great HC player, his lack of a HC GS was more of McEnroe being clutch in the Us Open Finals.

 

Nadal absolutely creamed Agassi on Grass and peak Nadal would tool the heck out of any grass player not named Sampras, Federer, Becker or Borg IMO. I see his grass game from 06-12 as better than Novak's after it.

IMO, McEnroe on hard is close to Nadal but Nadal eats soft serve serve & volley guys for dinner. This is why i think Edberg is toast against Nadal - he will put balls at the feet of serve & volley guys a foot from the net every single return all day long against those who dont power serve & come in. 

 

A peak Nadal IMO is a superior to all but the names above, as well as his peak lasted a lot longer before he slowed down noticably and started playing smarter tennis. 

 

And granted, Borg IMO was better on hard than Nadal and choked away a few slams to McEnroe being extremely clutch. 

 

[I6MTW]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Nadal absolutely creamed Agassi on Grass and peak Nadal would tool the heck out of any grass player not named Sampras, Federer, Becker or Borg IMO. I see his grass game from 06-12 as better than Novak's after it.

IMO, McEnroe on hard is close to Nadal but Nadal eats soft serve serve & volley guys for dinner. This is why i think Edberg is toast against Nadal - he will put balls at the feet of serve & volley guys a foot from the net every single return all day long against those who dont power serve & come in. 

 

A peak Nadal IMO is a superior to all but the names above, as well as his peak lasted a lot longer before he slowed down noticably and started playing smarter tennis. 

 

And granted, Borg IMO was better on hard than Nadal and choked away a few slams to McEnroe being extremely clutch. 

 

Speed of the court also matters. Nadal grew up in a slow surfaces era. Current HC and Grass is nowhere near the surfaces there were in the 80s or 90s. Nadal struggles against big servers on Grass and fast HCs. Especially indoors, where guys like McEnroe and Edberg would feast on Nadal.

Slow HC Nadal is probably top 5 all time.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, I6MTW said:

Speed of the court also matters. Nadal grew up in a slow surfaces era. Current HC and Grass is nowhere near the surfaces there were in the 80s or 90s. Nadal struggles against big servers on Grass and fast HCs. Especially indoors, where guys like McEnroe and Edberg would feast on Nadal.

Slow HC Nadal is probably top 5 all time.

McEnroe and Edberg would be dinner for Nadal on hard courts- which haven’t slowed down much till 2009 or so. Because they were soft accuracy servers. Not big servers. 

[I6MTW]

31 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

McEnroe and Edberg would be dinner for Nadal on hard courts- which haven’t slowed down much till 2009 or so. Because they were soft accuracy servers. Not big servers. 

Guys like Federer were accurate servers relying more on precision and placement rather than power. And Federer was quite respectable and competitive versus Nadal off clay. 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, I6MTW said:

Guys like Federer were accurate servers relying more on precision and placement rather than power. And Federer was quite respectable and competitive versus Nadal off clay. 

 

 

no comparison. Federer is no Isner but he is definitely amongst the top 5% of power servers of his era. Edberg and McEnroe were less power than Nadal himself, particularly McEnroe and were amongst the softest servers to have won multiple slams. 

[Real McCoy]

On 1/17/2021 at 4:58 PM, Muloghonto said:

no comparison. Federer is no Isner but he is definitely amongst the top 5% of power servers of his era. Edberg and McEnroe were less power than Nadal himself, particularly McEnroe and were amongst the softest servers to have won multiple slams. 

I would attribute that to change in racket and string technologies. Say Edberg or Mcenroe were playing in this era, they would be just as effective as the modern greats. Its no point comparing past greats to modern ones. Mcenroe and Borg played with wooden rackets, Edberg played in an era with fast courts with lesser developed rackets. Nadal plays in slower courts with advanced rackets.