urbestfriend Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Khota said: Nothing is perfect but it is lesser of the two evils. The input cost to grow is so much that the profit margins are shrining. I do not want to blame BJP or congress but farmers are getting screwed. India needs to reassess the resources distribution. Why is Air India getting hefty salary and pensions whereas farmers are starving. Same for PSUs. It is about parity. WE have free electricity We have subsidy for fertilisers We have MSP. Govt is also transferring 6k per year to the farmers. And none of this changes with new law. So how is this lesser evil? Yet farmers are barely making a living, so what's wrong? What's your solution other than saying Feku, ambani, adani, poor vs rich etc? Edited January 21, 2021 by urbestfriend Laaloo and Clarke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, urbestfriend said: WE have free electricity We have subsidy for fertilisers We have MSP. Govt is also transferring 6k per year to the farmers. And none of this changes with new law. So how is this lesser evil? Yet farmers are barely making a living, so what's wrong? What's your solution other than saying Feku, ambani, adani, poor vs rich etc? Input cost + certain percentage = asking price. The Ambani narrative is correct but I have refrained from words like feku and you can check my posts. There should be a higher level of taxation on these rich people so that distribution of wealth is equal among all Indians. Suicide is not a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) This is not even godi media. Yeh silsila chalta raha to 350 in 2024 will not be surprising Edited January 21, 2021 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda-esque Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 This is not even godi media. Yeh silsila chalta raha to 350 in 2024 will not be surprising Hindu vote has consolidated, irreversible Legendary_Bhakt and coffee_rules 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, Yoda-esque said: 6 hours ago, coffee_rules said: This is not even godi media. Yeh silsila chalta raha to 350 in 2024 will not be surprising Hindu vote has consolidated, irreversible general elections are becoming irrelevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Legendary_Bhakt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 14 hours ago, Khota said: Input cost + certain percentage = asking price. The Ambani narrative is correct but I have refrained from words like feku and you can check my posts. There should be a higher level of taxation on these rich people so that distribution of wealth is equal among all Indians. Suicide is not a solution. Same mumbo jumbo without any solution as expected from you. Input cost + certain percentage is what MSP. MSP should not be restricted to only few crops, it's unfair for other farmers and restricting to only few crops will discourage farmers from growing other crops. Now MSP is what it is Minimum support price. It is there so that farmers wont get into loss, but MSP will not give the farmers good profit, thats not what MSP is there for. Government cannot fix the price and become buyer for every crop, it is economically infeasible. So what's the long term solution? Farmers must be able to sell their goods in the price range they deem appropriate. Ideal way is to cut the middlemen and sell directly to the end users which is not possible because it is not easy. So one of the way to achieve this is to cut the middlemen, or open up the restrictions , allow them to sell anywhere, have more mandis even for private players and allow the farmers to sell anywhere so that they get the best price. Govt must still be able to set MSPs so that the buyers wont become cartel and set the arbitrarily low price. In this scheme of things, current middlemen will lose out, but at the end farmers will be benefited if there is a healthy competition. It's the another thing whether it will work out in an intended way or not, but there is no loss in trying. Govt can gauge and do the course correction if this is not working. And taxing more on Ambanis and Adanis just because you dont like them making money? Thats ridiculous. Individuals and corporates pays 35% tax which is high compared to other countries. how much more you want from them? Govt cannot tax industrialists arbitrarily, and if you keep increasing the corporate tax, it will result in slowing down of economy and job losses. Afterall farmers is not the only group govt must work for, right? coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 13 hours ago, Under_Score said: You & other Bhakts keep saying 'Political' Farmers, is it very hard for you to believe that so many Farmers in this protest who once voted your pm can NEVER go against him? That's the disillusion Godi media has fed you guys all this while. Opposition party(s) have no say whatsoever in this protest, the common man has had enough of this stupid corporate sell out govt.....mark my words, future elections will be a different ballgame. Now criminal record holder Taklu shah has resorted to another desperate move...Pitting Delhi police against Farmers. This is when firing, bloodshed will start.....which was until now a Peaceful protest. I dont think you'll be able to write anything sensible , and all of your argument includes Feku and Taklu, right? Obviously there are farmers in this protest but they dont understand what is this law, and how it will not hurt them. They are sold a dummy by the political 'farmers' that Ambanis and Adanis will take away their land etc, and there will be no MSP. THe whole protest is based on misinformation. Tell me why they are not ready to discuss point by point and see what comes out of it, but only trying to repeal the law. Just like CAA is sold as Muslims citizenship will be taken away, this is also purely based on misinformation. No wonder no protests from majority of the farmers from other part of the country. It's been 1.5 years since CAA, how many muslims lost citizenship? Yet, there were protests and many lives lost. why? I am also of the opinion that money is pumped to these protests from other countries is also helping them to sustain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 1 hour ago, urbestfriend said: Same mumbo jumbo without any solution as expected from you. Input cost + certain percentage is what MSP. MSP should not be restricted to only few crops, it's unfair for other farmers and restricting to only few crops will discourage farmers from growing other crops. Now MSP is what it is Minimum support price. It is there so that farmers wont get into loss, but MSP will not give the farmers good profit, thats not what MSP is there for. Government cannot fix the price and become buyer for every crop, it is economically infeasible. So what's the long term solution? Farmers must be able to sell their goods in the price range they deem appropriate. Ideal way is to cut the middlemen and sell directly to the end users which is not possible because it is not easy. So one of the way to achieve this is to cut the middlemen, or open up the restrictions , allow them to sell anywhere, have more mandis even for private players and allow the farmers to sell anywhere so that they get the best price. Govt must still be able to set MSPs so that the buyers wont become cartel and set the arbitrarily low price. In this scheme of things, current middlemen will lose out, but at the end farmers will be benefited if there is a healthy competition. It's the another thing whether it will work out in an intended way or not, but there is no loss in trying. Govt can gauge and do the course correction if this is not working. And taxing more on Ambanis and Adanis just because you dont like them making money? Thats ridiculous. Individuals and corporates pays 35% tax which is high compared to other countries. how much more you want from them? Govt cannot tax industrialists arbitrarily, and if you keep increasing the corporate tax, it will result in slowing down of economy and job losses. Afterall farmers is not the only group govt must work for, right? Input cost + %age is straight forward solution, not mumbo jumbo. Farmers need to be gauranteed something and it has to be regulated, conrolled and gauranteed by the govt. If not let us say onions is where they made money. Now next year every farmer will grow onion and will go bankrupt as there is a glut of onion. So govt. has to regulate it and control it. It is like minimum wage that is gauranteed by the govt. I do understand govt. does not have deep pockets but farmers are not asking for a killing either. Now getting back to taxes if 90% of the wealth generated is going to 1% of the population then something is wrong that needs to be fixed. Without higher taxation I dont know what the solution is. MSP has be gauranteed for all the essential crops. I think the demand list is 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 22 minutes ago, urbestfriend said: I dont think you'll be able to write anything sensible , and all of your argument includes Feku and Taklu, right? Obviously there are farmers in this protest but they dont understand what is this law, and how it will not hurt them. They are sold a dummy by the political 'farmers' that Ambanis and Adanis will take away their land etc, and there will be no MSP. THe whole protest is based on misinformation. Tell me why they are not ready to discuss point by point and see what comes out of it, but only trying to repeal the law. Just like CAA is sold as Muslims citizenship will be taken away, this is also purely based on misinformation. No wonder no protests from majority of the farmers from other part of the country. It's been 1.5 years since CAA, how many muslims lost citizenship? Yet, there were protests and many lives lost. why? I am also of the opinion that money is pumped to these protests from other countries is also helping them to sustain. For people to pretend that these laws will not benefit rich is wrong. Fact that they dont want courts to settle disputes shows the dispropotinate entitlement of the corporate world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, Khota said: I >> Input cost + %age is straight forward solution, not mumbo jumbo. This is what MSP is and MSP was there and will be there, and this law will not effect the MSP. I dont know how many times the same thing has been said. This %ge cannot be arbitrary, and this is decided by Commission for Agricultural Costs and Prices (CACP), which is a statutory body >> Farmers need to be gauranteed something and it has to be regulated, conrolled and gauranteed by the govt. Guaranteed, but how? MSP is there for that reason. But MSP regime is not sustainable and you'll have to find a way to make farmers self reliant. You can't have a ssituation where all farmers are only dependant on government for living. >> If not let us say onions is where they made money. Now next year every farmer will grow onion and will go bankrupt as there is a glut of onion. So govt. has to regulate it and control it. It is like minimum wage that is gauranteed by the govt. Exactly why MSP regime is not sustainable. Lets say everyone grows onion and there is huge flood of onions, govt cannot purchase this onion from every farmer and make it rot. Govt has to be enabler , providing suggestion using technology on what crops can yield better profits and also storage. Farmers must be encouraged for mix crops, so that they cut down on losses. WIth MSP's, there is no incentive to be doing all that, right? >> I do understand govt. does not have deep pockets but farmers are not asking for a killing either. I think you seem to be weak in economics, dont you? >> Now getting back to taxes if 90% of the wealth generated is going to 1% of the population then something is wrong that needs to be fixed. Without higher taxation I dont know what the solution is. This is what happens when you spend lot of time in misinformation. It was reported as 40% wealth by 1% rich, now you claim 90% without any data. But look up othr countries, you'll find similar numbers. Are you saying we should start taxing arbitrarily and heavily and kill any economic growth? You know what happened during Indira Gandhi's time where taxes were as high as 75%. The era of socialisation is long over. MSP has be gauranteed for all the essential crops. I think the demand list is 22. >> What is essential crop? Why not for non-essential crops? Is it ok if the farmers of non-essential crops commit suicide? (sic) coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 31 minutes ago, Khota said: For people to pretend that these laws will not benefit rich is wrong. Fact that they dont want courts to settle disputes shows the dispropotinate entitlement of the corporate world. Misinformation again. No govt can prevent anyone from approaching court. It's just that they wanted to have a dispute resolution mechanism which is faster than courts. Any aggrieved party can still approach the court if dispute resolution is not satisfactory. But the govt has agreed to repel that part, right? What's your grouse still? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 12 minutes ago, urbestfriend said: >> Input cost + %age is straight forward solution, not mumbo jumbo. This is what MSP is and MSP was there and will be there, and this law will not effect the MSP. I dont know how many times the same thing has been said. This %ge cannot be arbitrary, and this is decided by Commission for Agricultural Costs and Prices (CACP), which is a statutory body >> Farmers need to be gauranteed something and it has to be regulated, conrolled and gauranteed by the govt. Guaranteed, but how? MSP is there for that reason. But MSP regime is not sustainable and you'll have to find a way to make farmers self reliant. You can't have a ssituation where all farmers are only dependant on government for living. >> If not let us say onions is where they made money. Now next year every farmer will grow onion and will go bankrupt as there is a glut of onion. So govt. has to regulate it and control it. It is like minimum wage that is gauranteed by the govt. Exactly why MSP regime is not sustainable. Lets say everyone grows onion and there is huge flood of onions, govt cannot purchase this onion from every farmer and make it rot. Govt has to be enabler , providing suggestion using technology on what crops can yield better profits and also storage. Farmers must be encouraged for mix crops, so that they cut down on losses. WIth MSP's, there is no incentive to be doing all that, right? >> I do understand govt. does not have deep pockets but farmers are not asking for a killing either. I think you seem to be weak in economics, dont you? >> Now getting back to taxes if 90% of the wealth generated is going to 1% of the population then something is wrong that needs to be fixed. Without higher taxation I dont know what the solution is. This is what happens when you spend lot of time in misinformation. It was reported as 40% wealth by 1% rich, now you claim 90% without any data. But look up othr countries, you'll find similar numbers. Are you saying we should start taxing arbitrarily and heavily and kill any economic growth? You know what happened during Indira Gandhi's time where taxes were as high as 75%. The era of socialisation is long over. MSP has be gauranteed for all the essential crops. I think the demand list is 22. >> What is essential crop? Why not for non-essential crops? Is it ok if the farmers of non-essential crops commit suicide? (sic) This is what MSP is and MSP was there and will be there, and this law will not effect the MSP. I dont know how many times the same thing has been said. This %ge cannot be arbitrary, and this is decided by Commission for Agricultural Costs and Prices (CACP), which is a statutory body I maintain that MSP should be equivalent of a minimum wage. That can be easily calulated and does not have to be arbitrary. But MSP regime is not sustainable and you'll have to find a way to make farmers self reliant. You can't have a ssituation where all farmers are only dependant on government for living. Farmers have to be self reliant but they have been farming for 70 years and that is all they know. To say they need to be self reliant is a nice idea but alternate paths have to be provided by the government. Like an industry or something. They cannot transition to destitute level. I understand these things are not sustainable but government needs to regulate who gets to grow what and what the price they would be paid. You cant have all the farmers producing rice or wheat. It needs regulation and that can come from government. I am very weak in economics but I do know farming is not straight up supply and demand curve. No you will not find that uneven distribution in progressive countries. It is not OK for any farmer to commit suicide but these laws are making it worse. If you dont believe it ask the farmers. These laws were rushed by people who have no expertise and have not grown a damn thing in their lives. They are not qualified to pass these laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, urbestfriend said: Misinformation again. No govt can prevent anyone from approaching court. It's just that they wanted to have a dispute resolution mechanism which is faster than courts. Any aggrieved party can still approach the court if dispute resolution is not satisfactory. But the govt has agreed to repel that part, right? What's your grouse still? I have a bridge to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, Khota said: This is what MSP is and MSP was there and will be there, and this law will not effect the MSP. I dont know how many times the same thing has been said. This %ge cannot be arbitrary, and this is decided by Commission for Agricultural Costs and Prices (CACP), which is a statutory body I maintain that MSP should be equivalent of a minimum wage. That can be easily calulated and does not have to be arbitrary. But MSP regime is not sustainable and you'll have to find a way to make farmers self reliant. You can't have a ssituation where all farmers are only dependant on government for living. Farmers have to be self reliant but they have been farming for 70 years and that is all they know. To say they need to be self reliant is a nice idea but alternate paths have to be provided by the government. Like an industry or something. They cannot transition to destitute level. I understand these things are not sustainable but government needs to regulate who gets to grow what and what the price they would be paid. You cant have all the farmers producing rice or wheat. It needs regulation and that can come from government. I am very weak in economics but I do know farming is not straight up supply and demand curve. No you will not find that uneven distribution in progressive countries. It is not OK for any farmer to commit suicide but these laws are making it worse. If you dont believe it ask the farmers. These laws were rushed by people who have no expertise and have not grown a damn thing in their lives. They are not qualified to pass these laws. >> I maintain that MSP should be equivalent of a minimum wage. That can be easily calulated and does not have to be arbitrary. Exactly. MSP is there for the same reason. But do you want the farmers to be in minimum wage forever? I come from a farming family and I always think we need to get to a stage where farming is profitable than a corporate job. >>Farmers have to be self reliant but they have been farming for 70 years and that is all they know. To say they need to be self reliant is a nice idea but alternate paths have to be provided by the government. Like an industry or something. They cannot transition to destitute level. Please stop making farmers as illiterates. Come down south , you see many farmers are growing organic and selling online to maximize their profits. This law is made for long term in mind, younger farmers will be very different from older 70 year farmers, and in 20 years, farming will be as good as any corporate job. Govt must act like a bridge between corporates and farmers, and rest will follow its course. >>I understand these things are not sustainable but government needs to regulate who gets to grow what and what the price they would be paid. You cant have all the farmers producing rice or wheat. It needs regulation and that can come from government. Good that you "understand" that MSP is not sustainable , now you need to find long term solutions. Govt can be enabler but it cannot regulate what a farmer must grow and what he should not. That is not government's job. This is where you'll have to enable the farmers to see where is the profit and what he must grow to maximise the profit. >>I am very weak in economics but I do know farming is not straight up supply and demand curve. No one is saying that. Thats why farmers have free electricity, fertilizer subsidy, MSP, yearly payout, no income tax etc. This will continue forever, I am sure. >>If you dont believe it ask the farmers. No need to ask because I belong to a farmer's family. I know what I am saying. >>These laws were rushed by people who have no expertise and have not grown a damn thing in their lives. They are not qualified to pass these laws. Sure, provide an alternative other than your stupid socialisation logic of tax corporates heavily and provide MSP. Which is what all govt have been doing since ages and still farmers make 10K per month, according to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, urbestfriend said: >> I maintain that MSP should be equivalent of a minimum wage. That can be easily calulated and does not have to be arbitrary. Exactly. MSP is there for the same reason. But do you want the farmers to be in minimum wage forever? I come from a farming family and I always think we need to get to a stage where farming is profitable than a corporate job. Farming no where in the world be that profitable. They have to leave farm to make money but the transition has to be enabled by government. 3 hours ago, urbestfriend said: > >>Farmers have to be self reliant but they have been farming for 70 years and that is all they know. To say they need to be self reliant is a nice idea but alternate paths have to be provided by the government. Like an industry or something. They cannot transition to destitute level. Please stop making farmers as illiterates. Come down south , you see many farmers are growing organic and selling online to maximize their profits. This law is made for long term in mind, younger farmers will be very different from older 70 year farmers, and in 20 years, farming will be as good as any corporate job. Govt must act like a bridge between corporates and farmers, and rest will follow its course. > No one has shown more respect towards farmers than I have. Look at the word your cohorts have used Atankwadis, khalistanis, iliterate, angutha chaap etc. Moreover farming will never be as lucarative as a corporate job till the farm size is in 1000's of hectare. 3 hours ago, urbestfriend said: >>I understand these things are not sustainable but government needs to regulate who gets to grow what and what the price they would be paid. You cant have all the farmers producing rice or wheat. It needs regulation and that can come from government. Good that you "understand" that MSP is not sustainable , now you need to find long term solutions. Govt can be enabler but it cannot regulate what a farmer must grow and what he should not. That is not government's job. This is where you'll have to enable the farmers to see where is the profit and what he must grow to maximise the profit. > Nice lofty idea but a farmer with a small farm size can never grow rich or maximize profits. It is just not feasible. I have seen poverty first hand and come up north and I show you how poor majority of farmers are. 3 hours ago, urbestfriend said: >>I am very weak in economics but I do know farming is not straight up supply and demand curve. No one is saying that. Thats why farmers have free electricity, fertilizer subsidy, MSP, yearly payout, no income tax etc. This will continue forever, I am sure. And those subsidies are passed on the consumer also. Farmers dont get to keep those. Everyone is benefitting from that. mishra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 ^^^^ You're repeating "farmers are poor, I have seen poverty" card many times doesn't make a rational argument. clearly you have ducked the question about how to uplift the farmers from poverty , apart from your socialisation policy which has failed.? Or have you decided that farming is "never profitable" and farmers should be moved away from farming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 39 minutes ago, urbestfriend said: ^^^^ You're repeating "farmers are poor, I have seen poverty" card many times doesn't make a rational argument. clearly you have ducked the question about how to uplift the farmers from poverty , apart from your socialisation policy which has failed.? Or have you decided that farming is "never profitable" and farmers should be moved away from farming? I repeat that again and again so that it registers. A small holding farmer can never enter middle class. Bigger farmers may be fine. They do need to be moved away from farming but that requires intervention by GOI. Besides raising taxes can you offer a solution for parity??? Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Under_Score said: Hitler & his Nazi followers also must've thought along similar lines back in history the world looks yellow for jaundiced eyes.. old Kannada saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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