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Gusty AT Ind Test 11


zen

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Pataudi played with one eye but by the same account Chandrasekhar had polio. Pataudi at least had a family background even though don’t think he was a nepotistic selection but for someone to come from a regular background with a handicap is a higher accomplishment.

 

Similarly Kumble is a gritty cricketer, no doubt but you listed his playing with an injury but you skipped Ashwin who played not once but twice under such circumstances. I am sure Kumble has too but anyways suddenly the criteria changed.

 

Mainkad made “India competitive” what kind of a bench mark is that :rofl: I am sure he did but then what about Lala Amarnath? How about G Viswanath who was a combo of VVS and Dravid?

 

Pujara won’t throw his wicket away ok sure Fair  enough but what about Dravid who was a much better overall batsman with all due respect to Chepu.

 

Too hard to follow the pattern but as I said from a personal choice it is fine but was trying to figure out the pattern.

Edited by maniac
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First, one can only pick 11 players 

 

 

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Pataudi played with one eye but by the same account Chandrasekhar had polio. Pataudi at least had a family background even though don’t think he was a nepotistic selection but for someone to come from a regular background with a handicap is a higher accomplishment. Similarly Kumble is a gritty cricketer, no doubt but you listed his playing with an injury but you skipped Ashwin who played not once but twice under such circumstances. I am sure Kumble has too but anyways suddenly the criteria changed.

 

Chandra is a good option too but Pataudi and Chandra are not playing for the same spot, buddy :facepalm:....  Moreover, Pataudi lost his eye in an accident if I am not wrong so had to adjust his game suddenly, while Chandra had a disability at a young age (maybe like Murali?) so was used to bowling in that way .... Talking about specialist spinner's spot, say it is among Kumble, Chandra (makes it to my regular AT11), Ashwin or xyz .... We are looking at gusty performances while bowling .... I prefer a leg spinner so opted for Kumble (played gusty cricket in his career overall - the bowling with broken jaw is a highlight/used as a standout example) 

 

 

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Mainkad made “India competitive” what kind of a bench mark is that :rofl: I am sure he did but then what about Lala Amarnath? How about G Viswanath who was a combo of VVS and Dravid?

 

Obviously, Mankad is playing as a genuine AR (among Ind's cream) 

 

 

 

 

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Pujara won’t throw his wicket away ok sure Fair  enough but what about Dravid who was a much better overall batsman with all due respect to Chepu.

 

Too hard to follow the pattern but as I said from a personal choice it is fine but was trying to figure out the pattern.

 

 

 

I  rate Pujara's gritty performance in 2018 to give Ind its first series win in Aus extremely high ... that 123 in first inning at Adelaide, when Ind tends to do badly in the first test and when everyone else struggled .... and also his 132* in Eng, the performance in the last test at SCG 

 

 

Edited by zen
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51 minutes ago, zen said:

 

So what are the options?

 

 

Don't make such lists.

 

51 minutes ago, zen said:

 

It will take you a lifetime to do that ... focus on the topic. (or take a hike) .... i do not worry about fanboys rushing in to comment when x or y name is not on a list 

 

Nobody wants their fav to a list based on cherry-picking one-off instances.  Don't call it a ATG, but a list of one-off-bravado-list-of-players-playing-while-injured

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8 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

 

Don't make such lists.

 

 

That was a rhetorical question 

 

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Nobody wants their fav to a list based on cherry-picking one-off instances.  Don't call it a ATG, but a list of one-off-bravado-list-of-players-playing-while-injured

 

:lol:  .... This is not a list based on one-offs but includes ATG or close enough players who have shown gritty/gusty performances over their careers - for e.g. Patuadi who played with an eye 

Edited by zen
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On 1/12/2021 at 10:33 PM, zen said:

From the top of the mind recall: 
 

Gavaskar 

Sehwag - for taking on the bowlers 

Amarnath - said to have batted despite bleeding iirc (blood on his shirt or something to that order)

Pujara - will not throw his wkt away 

Pataudi - played with an eye 

Mankad - made Ind competitive 

Pant - “4th innings”

Kapil

Kumble - bowled with a broken jaw 

Shami

Bumrah 

12th man: VVS - for some great knocks under pressure 

VVS is right up there. Dont know why you made him 12th man over people like mankad. VVS played several back to the wall innings 281 the most quoted, but that 70 odd in mohali batting with Ishant and ojha scoring 90 runs with the last 2 wickets was amazing. also his 4th innings chase against sl in sl in 2010 where he scored a century and chased 270 runs with a sore back. also his 90 odd against SA in Durban where sreesanth bowled that unplayable delivery to kallis. that was a tough wicket to bat on and he scored 90 with the tail once again.

im not sure of cricketing history but what did mankad do actually. pataudi is the first one to win overseas and backing his quartet of spinners no matter what the conditions were. but mankad seriously. I would put CK Nayudu who hit 19 sixes against the visiting english team before independence and eknath solkar who fielded in short leg positions and didnt turn his back against attacking shots as gutsy cricketers before mankad. pujara meh valuing his wicket is not gutsy. and he has been bowled plenty of times including the recent one. from the last innings, I would put vihari and ashwin as well. both of them battling injuries and maintaining focus to not get out and not to mention many fielders around the bat with bouncer barrage and constant chatter. praveen amre facing donald and co on a spicy wicket and scoring a century where others faltered.

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1 minute ago, Real McCoy said:

VVS is right up there. Dont know why you made him 12th man over people like mankad. VVS played several back to the wall innings 281 the most quoted, but that 70 odd in mohali batting with Ishant and ojha scoring 90 runs with the last 2 wickets was amazing. also his 4th innings chase against sl in sl in 2010 where he scored a century and chased 270 runs with a sore back. also his 90 odd against SA in Durban where sreesanth bowled that unplayable delivery to kallis. that was a tough wicket to bat on and he scored 90 with the tail once again.

im not sure of cricketing history but what did mankad do actually. pataudi is the first one to win overseas and backing his quartet of spinners no matter what the conditions were. but mankad seriously. I would put CK Nayudu who hit 19 sixes against the visiting english team before independence and eknath solkar who fielded in short leg positions and didnt turn his back against attacking shots as gutsy cricketers before mankad. pujara meh valuing his wicket is not gutsy. and he has been bowled plenty of times including the recent one. from the last innings, I would put vihari and ashwin as well. both of them battling injuries and maintaining focus to not get out and not to mention many fielders around the bat with bouncer barrage and constant chatter. praveen amre facing donald and co on a spicy wicket and scoring a century where others faltered.

 

Mankad is there as the AR .... on what he did:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

But in India, you can play two spinners sometimes even three. Don't go by eng/aussie style of picking sides

 

The team has 2 spinners (Kumble and Mankad), along w/ part time off spin from Sehwag

Edited by zen
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15 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

@zen thats all great but how does that make mankad a gutsy cricketer. maybe an all purpose cricketer like an underrated form of kallis and sobers, but gutsy :hmmmm2:

 

He has shown determination on many instances including in the Mankad test in Eng for e.g. - Link (Ind lost the game but it is still referred to say the Mankad test)

 

Ideally, should be in any AT Ind 11 - Link

 

 

Edited by zen
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18 minutes ago, zen said:

 

He has shown determination on many instances including in the Mankad test in Eng for e.g. - Link (Ind lost the game but it is still referred to say the Mankad test)

 

Ideally, should be in any AT Ind 11 - Link

 

 

ok he's a great player of that era but still no different from Sachin of the 90s. a star player but poor performance from the team. i dont know how you missed eknath solkar who fielded in short leg without a helmet and faced attacking shots coming towards him. are you seeing the failure of this thread. if not you are not getting it. there were several players over the years who showed lots of gumption but you are only seeing what you want to see. no srinath in your list who bowled on dead tracks and generated bounce off of it and got key wickets at the start of the innings. dravid and bangar battling it out on a green mamba in leeds. ganguly going to brisbane and scoring a century when everyone knew he will fail on bouncy wickets. I could make two teams from my experience of watching cricket. Indian cricket started at 1932. several cases such as vihari and ashwin will go unrecognized especially vihari because he scored only 20.

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1 minute ago, Real McCoy said:

ok he's a great player of that era but still no different from Sachin of the 90s. a star player but poor performance from the team. i dont know how you missed eknath solkar who fielded in short leg without a helmet and faced attacking shots coming towards him. are you seeing the failure of this thread. if not you are not getting it. there were several players over the years who showed lots of gumption but you are only seeing what you want to see. no srinath in your list who bowled on dead tracks and generated bounce off of it and got key wickets at the start of the innings. dravid and bangar battling it out on a green mamba in leeds. ganguly going to brisbane and scoring a century when everyone knew he will fail on bouncy wickets. I could make two teams from my experience of watching cricket. Indian cricket started at 1932. several cases such as vihari and ashwin will go unrecognized especially vihari because he scored only 20.

 

Solkar was a good fielder but would not make it to an AT 11 .... These are not just based on one-offs (AT11) but on multiple performances, along w/ a few highlights 

 

Since only 11 can be accomodated (and per combination), Srinath could not be included. Bumrah and Shami put in a lot of effort too in their bowling and appear like a good combination when bowling together (so did not want to break the pair). Srinat put in a lot of effort and probably could be my fav Indian bowler 

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1 minute ago, zen said:

 

Solkar was a good fielder but would not make it to an AT 11 .... These are not just based on one-offs (AT11) but on multiple performances, along w/ a few highlights 

 

Since only 11 can be accomodated (and per combination), Srinath could not be included. Bumrah and Shami put in a lot of effort too in their bowling and appear like a good combination when bowling together (so did not want to break the pair). Srinat put in a lot of effort and probably could be my fav Indian bowler 

you said gutsy at xi. now you are giving more filters to eliminate those who don't have enough success :rolleyes: if so why have VVS as 12th man. he has shown guts and has enough success.

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15 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

you said gutsy at xi. now you are giving more filters to eliminate those who don't have enough success :rolleyes: if so why have VVS as 12th man. he has shown guts and has enough success.

 

AT11 which means from players who can be considered as ATG or close enough for Ind ... I do prefer VVS over Pataudi as a batsman ... But could not overlook the fact that Pataudi battled it out with an eye (good record too considering this fact). Also a gusty AT 11 needs such a gusty ATG captain :dontknow:

 

PS A good example is the inning played with one-eye (and one leg):

 

The Nawab of Pataudi jnr scored six Test hundreds, but many considered his finest innings to be the 75 at the MCG in 1967-68. Coming in to bat at 25 for 5 on a green wicket, Pataudi needed a runner because of a pulled hamstring that had kept him out of the previous Test. Unable to play several front-foot shots, he made up by hooking. By the time he was dismissed, India's total had been lifted to 162. In the second innings, with India facing an innings defeat, Pataudi scored another half-century, and added 54 with the No. 10, Ramakant Desai. India lost by an innings and four runs, but Pataudi's 75 made it to No. 14 in Wisden Asia Cricket's list of the top 25 Indian Test innings.

 

KN Prabhu: Pataudi's 75 was, as one observer termed it, "an innings played with one leg and one eye" in a thin drizzle on a dark day. To add to the handicap of his vision, he had also suffered a pulled hamstring, but he played stirringly despite these problems, in difficult batting conditions. One school of thought has it that Pataudi's and his team's struggles were partly of his own making, for he himself chose to bat on a pitch that was so green that I could only distinguish it from the rest of the ground because the grass had been rolled. But he did not have much by way of pace bowling, and he must have been hoping that his spinners would come into their own in the fourth innings. As it happened, his batting line-up fell around him on the first day, but he found some support from Rusi Surti, and as the day went on he proceeded to play some thrilling leg-side strokes, including several hooks. I remember Lindsay Hassett coming up to me during the game and saying, "That's the way Bradman used to attack the bowling."

KN Prabhu covered the tour of Australia for the Times of India

 

Ajit Wadekar: I was lucky enough to watch Pataudi's first-day 75 from a very unusual vantage point: square leg, where I stood as his runner. We had lost the first Test in Adelaide, and the MCG wicket was supposed to be lively in the first session. But we didn't have the fast bowlers to make use of that, and maybe that prompted Tiger to elect to bat, a decision I am sure he went on to rue as the match progressed. As expected, the ball was swinging both ways under the clouds, and the Indian batsmen ran for cover against Graham McKenzie and Co. By lunch we were six down, and even 100 looked distant. Tiger was bravely waging a lone battle in the middle. He had suffered a hamstring injury in the first tour game and had been unavailable till the Melbourne Test. He was keen, I guess, to prove that his decision to bat was correct. And in that anger he started middling the ball, lifting it over the inner circle. He was not afraid at all, and in this way he put question marks in the bowlers' minds as to where exactly to bowl to him. With these unusual methods he pushed the team along from 47 for 6 to 162.
Wadekar top-scored in the second innings of the Test, with 99

 

Jack Fingleton: Pataudi was an interesting study as captain. I always felt that he batted too low in the order, mostly at No. 6, and he advanced as the reason for this his leg disability. He thought, being unable to run sharp singles, that he would rob his best batsmen of runs if he batted higher, but such was his skill, such was the authority which came into the Indian innings as soon as he appeared, that, on balance, I do think he erred in not batting at least No. 4. Melbourne was a case in point. India made a woeful beginning, 25 for 5. Pataudi entered at this crisis, and looked a tragic figure as he walked in, dragging his injured leg. But, immediately, there came into the Indian innings character, intelligence and respectability. He showed first of all that he had a cool head and was not going to toss his wicket away. Pataudi played a glorious innings, taking the Australian bowling by the scruff.
From Fingleton's survey of the tour for Indian Cricket 1968

 

Link

Edited by zen
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25 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

He's right on that one. Dhoni's ugly 70 was much better in the scheme of things and a draw was secured with only one wicket remaining between a draw and a loss. Sachin wasn't dileri enough his legs were shaking said kapil :--D

Yes and only time in history Bucknor bailed us out and won us a test series by not giving a plumb lbw decision against Dhoni. Maybe he realised his mistake gave it back with interest 6 months later in Sydney..

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@zen you are picking and choosing. if you want Pataudi over Laxman for captaincy, you could have put Laxman as captain or anyone else in your list as captain such as kumble. You pick the "gutsy" players first and make a captain from them not pick a captain first. seems you are bending the rules to fit your XI in it. I had great fun in trolling sachinistas bro but this is just a waste of my time. adios

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The gutsiest player to me would be Sandip Patel. Banged in the head flush from a Lenny Pascoe thunderbolt. Would have been in coma if he was late to hospital. 
 

In the first Test, he had been struck on the head by a blinder after a fascinating 65. That had been the second body blow after Rodney Hogg had struck him on the throat. He was rushed to the hospital and kept under observation in the intensive care unit, and the doctors did not allow him to sleep for ten hours. The next morning, he was discharged and came back to the ground with a throbbing pain in the ear, caused by a perforation from the blow. As India succumbed to a huge defeat, he was sent in to bat at number eight in the second innings. It is strange that captain asked him to bat at all. The match was already lost and Patil was still in considerable pain, blood oozing from his ears.The young Bombay batsman, who could not hear a thing with his left ear for a number of days, spent the gap between the first and second Tests by batting at the nets with a helmet.

 


I still have a picture of Bapu Nadkarni and Yograj Singh taking me to the dressing room and after a few steps I again collapsed. I also remember coming to my senses when doctors asked me to walk on the steel plates and as they found me wobbly they sedated me again
 

Next match he played arguably the best test innings in Australian soil by an Indian.

 

Two weeks later, with a helmet on, Patil hit a spectacular 174 in the Adelaide Test. It came after India lost the first four wickets for 130 against the Australian total of 528. At the time the highest innings by an Indian in Australia, it took him just over five hours and included twenty two fours and a six over mid-wicket off Bruce Yardley.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thequint.com/amp/story/sports/cricket/sandeep-patil-len-pascoe-bouncer-head-injury

 

 

Oh India drew that series after winning in Melbourne. He finished with highest average as well as runs. . The next victory on Australian soil came 17 years later at Adelaide in 2003/4 series. 

 

Edited by neel roy
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