Discussion on Farmers issues in India

[MechEng]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:59 AM, maniac said:

Let them sell and maybe start a separate business if they can’t cut it.

 

Also, anyone can make it to Harvard.

Edited February 4, 2021 by MechEng

[bharathh]

39 minutes ago, ash said:

Even if state does not collect Mandi tax, the farmers would prefer corporates since the initial price offered by corporates will be much higher than MSP. This is marketing 101 for big corporate, gain customer base then squeeze price. Like Jio

 

Farmers will not be forced into agreements, they will not have any other option with direct selling prices eventually falling below MSP. And there will be multiple subclauses to bargain the price later while buying. We already have an example pepsi Vs potato farmers

 

Mandis would vanish cause the state can't afford to run empty Mandis without the tax revenue. As simple as that

 

Hoarding cannot happen now but with the new amendment all non perishable like rice and Dal can be hoarded by corporates

 

 

 

Instead of spending so much on acquiring crops ... the state govt can easily earmark money to keep mandis going. As if mandis are making the govt exchequer so much money! If anyone has stats on tax revenue vs spend for mandis would be grateful if they shared.

 

IMO, they are a sunk cost for the state govt. What changes if the govt keeps mandis going? 

[mishra]

1 minute ago, ash said:

1) That is the failure of the state govt then. The answer to this is to increase the no of Mandis so that every farmer gets MSP. What this law does is remove the local middleman and replace it with corporate middleman. 

2) in the clause you have shared there is nothing about MSP, protecting farmers from subclauses etc. It just states no structure can be built and land can't be bought. 

1. It just shows Mandi system was not working for most of India. Gvmt is not interested in Mandis because it does not increase productivity. The new laws will do nothing but atleast increase productivity and greatly reduce wastage.

 

2. Now the clause I pasted was about protecting the farm land. Let me give you what is indeed needed to change the clause on protecting land. If you read point 9 it says insurance "can be" availaed. What is indeed needed is "mandate" a insurance.  I can understand why gvmt hasnt mandated it (to let enterpreuners, young players  enter market and reduce the overall operating cost) , but it must put some sub clasue based on value of contract to farmers earning or period of contract or operating business and financial risk apetite of business. Thats why, Point by point discussion is needed with Gvmt.

 

PS: I remember long back when PM Narsimha Rao and Dr MMS as financnce brought about reform. One of the issues that was argued and touched many people was we will not be able to produce and give medicines because of patent laws which will make it out of reach of ordinary people. But look where India stands in pharmaceutical Industry today.

[MechEng]

4 hours ago, Serpico said:

Move on to the afterlife? Very reasonable solution dude why can't every farmer in the country find enough markets to sell their organic avocados and soy milk, it doesn't matter if only 0.1% of indian consumers give a crap about that stuff, every farmer who cannot cater that 0.1% population should just cease to exist

 

There is an assumption that Indian farmers are very well equipped with resources to extract the best from their lands and they are just being lazy to accept 'change'

[urbestfriend]

1 hour ago, ash said:

I will explain with a simple scenario what will happen after the bill is passed

 

1) No tax on direct selling , but state tax on Mandis. So the farmers will start prefering corporate buyers

2) There is no MSP on direct selling. Initially farmers will get high price from corporates, way more than MSP.  they will be happy cause no Mandi tax and no loss

3) Companies will start hoarding essentials. The prices for the items will slowly come down, will eventually fall below MSP.

4) Now farmers can't go back to Mandis to get MSP cause all Mandis would have been closed by then. 

5) The next step is corporate farming. With no other option now, farmers will start getting into contracts. Again no MSP so the contract price will be set by the companies, can be as low as they want.

6) Now time to sell. No guarantee again if the companies will honour the agreement with multiple subclauses. They can avoid buying citing poor crops, not enough quantity etc etc. They will bargain for less price now quoting all this subclauses in the agreement

7) the farmer obviously can't go to court. Anyone who says so are naive with no experience. Just raise a normal civil case against an insurance company and see how long it will take. Trust me I have experience

8) Now final nail in the coffin. The next step for the farmer is to sell the land. Again who better than the corporates again. They will buy the land, buy labour and continue farming. Then there will be absolutely no control on price.

 

In all these steps, there is absolutely no advantage whatsoever to the final consumer. We will continue to see increased price.

 

The problem here is the effect is not immediate. These steps will happen over the course of next 10 yrs. Initially no one will see any difference , but eventually when we look back there will be an reliance or adani Agri storage and logistics office in every district. 

 

What a load of bull crap.

 

MSPs are procured by the government, and madis are run by commission agents. Govt announces the MSP for every crap, and if farmers are willing to sell for MSP,Govt themselves can procure them in every taluk without even need of Mandis. Why do you think Madis are necessary for the MSP? Mandis acts like a middle men between traders and farmers, and govt procures through Mandis doesnt mean that is the only way.

 

And remaining story is very nice but laws are not like Quran , set in the stone, states and union need to come up with suitable protections in case if there is a monopolization and form cartels. But considering there is no entry fee to source, why do you think only few corporates will monopolise? What prevents me from other corporates other than ambani and adani to have their own storage and logistics? 

 

[maniac]

11 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

There is an assumption that Indian farmers are very well equipped with resources to extract the best from their lands and they are just being lazy to accept 'change'

That’s the point, if they are not equipped or have outdated material, they either upgrade or sell it to a guy who can.
 

Does a corporation care about how many employees are experts when they implement a shift in technology or business? Either the employee is smart enough and equipped to adapt or they are let go and more capable ones are brought in.

 

Thats they way it works in every walk of life.

 

Sure,I am over simplifying.

 

Look I understand that even if you rent paid goons, to sustain something this long there has to be some genuine underlying  dissent. Nothing is binary.

 

Same way not every change proposed by the government can be bad right?

 

All I see is tweets against the protest and how great Modi government is. Is there a proper neutral point by point pro and cons of each proposed or amended law?

 

All I see are tweets by B-grade actors, pornstars and singers and other celebrities.

 

Why aren’t the experts having a constructive debate? The government did offer mediation though but even after that of this is going on, then there is something else at play. It’s not that difficult to understand.

 

I still stick to my thought, Jai Jawan,Jai Kisan is outdated. Treat the farmer like you would any other businessman. No extra perks.

[urbestfriend]

Punjab has 8.5% as mandi tax which has to be borne by all procurement agencies whereas other states procurement can be direct. Why should the Centre devolve funds to select states in the guise of food subsidy? The MSP should subsume all taxes in it. 

[Legendary_Bhakt]

Full on nautanki going on in the name of protests 

[ash]

6 minutes ago, urbestfriend said:

What a load of bull crap.

 

MSPs are procured by the government, and madis are run by commission agents. Govt announces the MSP for every crap, and if farmers are willing to sell for MSP,Govt themselves can procure them in every taluk without even need of Mandis. Why do you think Madis are necessary for the MSP? Mandis acts like a middle men between traders and farmers, and govt procures through Mandis doesnt mean that is the only way.

 

And remaining story is very nice but laws are not like Quran , set in the stone, states and union need to come up with suitable protections in case if there is a monopolization and form cartels. But considering there is no entry fee to source, why do you think only few corporates will monopolise? What prevents me from other corporates other than ambani and adani to have their own storage and logistics? 

 

Nope. Mandis are monitored by Agricultural Produce Marketing Committees (APMC). Farmers have closed or open auctions for their products monitored by govt officials to ensure that the auction price is more than MSP. I have been to some Mandis and the process is seamless. 

 

The problem here is not every farmer can afford to come to Mandis. Transportation, distance etc comes into picture. This is where middlemen comes into picture. They procure vegetables from these small farmers , less than MSP. And they are the ones that comes to Mandis. And also the farmers with more acres and more produce. 

 

Now the problem is real but the way to solve this is simply to increase the no of physical markets and cut out the middle man. Set up a big Mandi , but also small markets where MSP is controlled. The small markets can be a direct interface for farmers and consumers.

 

Reg your question about monopoly, cold storage is not cheap. Small players can maybe transport within states, but corporates who are already in the field like ITC have the infra advantage.

[urbestfriend]

7 minutes ago, ash said:

Nope. Mandis are monitored by Agricultural Produce Marketing Committees (APMC). Farmers have closed or open auctions for their products monitored by govt officials to ensure that the auction price is more than MSP. I have been to some Mandis and the process is seamless. 

 

The problem here is not every farmer can afford to come to Mandis. Transportation, distance etc comes into picture. This is where middlemen comes into picture. They procure vegetables from these small farmers , less than MSP. And they are the ones that comes to Mandis. And also the farmers with more acres and more produce. 

 

Now the problem is real but the way to solve this is simply to increase the no of physical markets and cut out the middle man. Set up a big Mandi , but also small markets where MSP is controlled. The small markets can be a direct interface for farmers and consumers.

 

Reg your question about monopoly, cold storage is not cheap. Small players can maybe transport within states, but corporates who are already in the field like ITC have the infra advantage.

Not true. Farmers have an option to register their crops to sell in MSP or auction will determine the price. APMC only helps states to collect taxes while middlemen will cut their commission as well. If it is not MSP, govt do not ensure anything. There job is to provide infrastructure while charging the tax which vares from states to states, and passed on to the consumer.  

[Khota]

All those people supporting these laws should ask themselves a simple question, if these laws were true economic measures why did BJP spread false propoganda and disinformation about only one state/sikhs/punjab/khalistan?

Why not just debate the merits/demerits of the law.

[Number]

8 hours ago, Serpico said:

How do you know these laws are the game-changer? Vietnam also made sure that their literacy rate and quality of education is high, there are enough jobs and development in industrial sector. Where are all the new industries and jobs in india to replace farming jobs? Where is the long term vision of govt to help transition the farmers? It's funny how people believe they just need to pass a law and remove msp and farmers will magically gain the skills and all the industries will magically establish themselves in the country like in Vietnam

 

What do you suggest ? Status quo ?

primitive way of cultivation ?

There are many examples around the world where after private investment was encouraged in farming yields improved, income of farmers increased.

 

Of course its obvious that just by making policy or passing bills nothing happens. But these are the first step. It will encourage pvt sector investment in farming. Or else you will have govt officials threatening/harassing corporates with charges like hoarding, cheating etc.

 

[Yoda-esque]

I have a feeling this this Tikait guy wants an honorable exit.He had been a loser all his life living in his father's shadow ,and he doesn't have the will to go through with this.Shah should meet him and give him a way to face save.

[Number]

8 minutes ago, Yoda-esque said:

I have a feeling this this Tikait guy wants an honorable exit.He had been a loser all his life living in his father's shadow ,and he doesn't have the will to go through with this.Shah should meet him and give him a way to face save.

 

Do have a feeling BJP is either allowing him or has a backstage deal with him.

Can be key to win UP 2022 and LS 2024 again by dividing RLD votes in west UP if he comes up with his own party.

[Serpico]

2 hours ago, Number said:

Of course its obvious that just by making policy or passing bills nothing happens. But these are the first step. It will encourage pvt sector investment in farming. Or else you will have govt officials threatening/harassing corporates with charges like hoarding, cheating etc

This shouldn't be the first step. This can be sixth or seventh step.. once the industrial sector improves and provide more jobs, most small farmers and labourers will automatically move towards them without any coercion.. and when good literacy programs are implemented and rural population becomes more savvy and empowered to deal with big corporations, maybe then a law like this can be a final step. To make it as a first step means throwing all the helpless sections of the country to the wolves. If you think govt employees are the worst exploiters, you haven't seen anything yet

Edited February 4, 2021 by Serpico

[Serpico]

2 hours ago, Khota said:

All those people supporting these laws should ask themselves a simple question, if these laws were true economic measures why did BJP spread false propoganda and disinformation about only one state/sikhs/punjab/khalistan?

Why not just debate the merits/demerits of the law.

That's the MO of anything this govt does. Nobody questioning their policies can have genuine concerns, anyone who are critical to their plans are traitors, communists, illuminati etc. Just demonize every dissenter and poison the discourse

[bharathh]

5 minutes ago, Serpico said:

That's the MO of anything this govt does. Nobody questioning their policies can have genuine concerns, anyone who are critical to their plans are traitors, communists, illuminati etc. Just demonize every dissenter and poison the discourse

 

It would help if the genuine concerns had any basis in logic or fact rather than fantasies

[bharathh]

2 hours ago, Khota said:

All those people supporting these laws should ask themselves a simple question, if these laws were true economic measures why did BJP spread false propoganda and disinformation about only one state/sikhs/punjab/khalistan?

Why not just debate the merits/demerits of the law.

 

Can you even explain what the 3 laws are? Thanks for making me laugh. Reading this statement of yours really helped with the stress from work today!

[maniac]

33 minutes ago, Serpico said:

That's the MO of anything this govt does. Nobody questioning their policies can have genuine concerns, anyone who are critical to their plans are traitors, communists, illuminati etc. Just demonize every dissenter and poison the discourse

the government is not sending goons to enforce laws is it? Why can’t the farmers hire a legal experts and other specialists  and debate the merits and demerits of the new laws?

 

I don’t see the sterotype suicide watch type of framers protesting here, even if they are, why can’t the richer ones hire lawyers?

 

What exactly is creating a ruckus and that too at the time of a deadly pandemic achieve exactly?

Edited February 4, 2021 by maniac

[Number]

20 minutes ago, Serpico said:

This shouldn't be the first step. This can be sixth or seventh step.. once the industrial sector improves and provide more jobs, most small farmers and labourers will automatically move towards them without any coercion.. and when good literacy programs are implemented and rural population becomes more savvy and empowered to deal with big corporations, maybe then a law like this can be a final step. To make it as a first step means throwing all the helpless sections of the country to the wolves. If you think govt employees are the worst exploiters, you haven't seen anything yet

 

In my opinion we can not wait for industrialisation of economy to bring in reforms to improve agriculture sector which remains sluggish, backwards dependent on weather.