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Discussion on Farmers issues in India


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4 hours ago, Khota said:

Yes my brother, I am all about substance.

 

Can anyone name one good thing this law is doing?


Removes a monopoly of middleman 

Increases market size for farmers. 
throws out essential commodity restrictions 

More income in farmer’s hands 

 

Now you provide specific downsides. 
 

For those who want to understand the bill and what it does. 
 

 

 

 

Edited by ravishingravi
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5 hours ago, Khota said:

Look at the numbers of farmers over 50 year period in the west, they are down to 1%.

Oh man...That has nothing to do with corporates, it has to do with industrialisation of the west and small farming is not profitable. Big farmers do inustrialised agriculture to improve the returns. 

Edited by urbestfriend
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6 hours ago, ravishingravi said:


Removes a monopoly of middleman 

Increases market size for farmers. 
throws out essential commodity restrictions 

More income in farmer’s hands 

 

Now you provide specific downsides. 
 

For those who want to understand the bill and what it does. 
 

 

 

 

(1) The middleman does get some profit but he also floats a loan and halps the farmer out. He is serving muliple purposes over here. This would be replaced by one or two entitie only which can force the price down to destitute level.

 

(2) Increase market size is the biggest load of BS. A farmer with his bullock cart can go no more than few hours away to sell his stuff. Moreover no one has come to give a better price to them than that offered by govt.

 

(3) What restrictions and give example.

 

(4) With or without these bills farmer incomes are heading down. These bills will accelerate that without MSP.

 

Look these beauraucrats are the least qualified to pass farm laws. They have no clue and anyone who understood farming was Akali Dal and they were not consulted.

 

BJP/Congress/AAP or any other party, farming incomes are heading down without govt. help. It is not Modis fault but these bills will accelerate the demise.

 

 

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6 hours ago, urbestfriend said:

Oh man...That has nothing to do with corporates, it has to do with industrialisation of the west and small farming is not profitable. Big farmers do inustrialised agriculture to improve the returns. 

And that is mostly an accurate statement .

 

Farming share in India will follow the west and also diminish from 50% of population to a smaller percentage with time.

 

The problem with these bills is that a farmer will be forced to adapt with no alternates.

 

BJP should have left all this alone and started industrializing the country. so that farmers could transition to industrial jobs.

 

They have it backwards. They need to show farmers an alternate path rather than ask them to look for it.

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6 minutes ago, Khota said:

 

(1) The middleman does get some profit but he also floats a loan and halps the farmer out. He is serving muliple purposes over here. This would be replaced by one or two entitie only which can force the price down to destitute level.

 

(2) Increase market size is the biggest load of BS. A farmer with his bullock cart can go no more than few hours away to sell his stuff. Moreover no one has come to give a better price to them than that offered by govt.

 

(3) What restrictions and give example.

 

(4) With or without these bills farmer incomes are heading down. These bills will accelerate that without MSP.

 

Look these beauraucrats are the least qualified to pass farm laws. They have no clue and anyone who understood farming was Akali Dal and they were not consulted.

 

BJP/Congress/AAP or any other party, farming incomes are heading down without govt. help. It is not Modis fault but these bills will accelerate the demise.

 

 

Since you are the genius know all in farming, what would you do to help farmer other than status-quo? 

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9 minutes ago, urbestfriend said:

Since you are the genius know all in farming, what would you do to help farmer other than status-quo? 

I am dumb according to you guys so let us just leave it at that.

 

Responding to your question there should be more  job opportunities created so that they can transition to that.

 

These are my personal thoughts but India has the most bloated bureaucracy and that really needs to be trimmed. 

 

The model used by British to rule India cannot be continued anymore. Need to disband red tape to make any progress.

 

First economic leap made by India was because of the vision of Rao/Singh. BJP has been fairly stagnant in ideas.

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>> I am dumb according to you guys so let us just leave it at that.

 

I dont imply that but according to you Modi and his bureaucracy are dumb, so you must be super intelligent to call that. 

 

>> Responding to your question there should be more  job opportunities created so that they can transition to that.

 

But how? You want the industrialists to be taxed heavily than what is currently taxed. Other day you were cribbing about Ambani and Adani making billions and how they are not taxed enough. If you start taxing them heavily, who is going to create jobs? You also crib about PSU's and how the employees are lazy, so PSU's also not viable option to create jobs. Who must create jobs? 

 

>> These are my personal thoughts but India has the most bloated bureaucracy and that really needs to be trimmed. 

>> The model used by British to rule India cannot be continued anymore. Need to disband red tape to make any progress.

OK, so it means less government jobs.

 

>>First economic leap made by India was because of the vision of Rao/Singh. BJP has been fairly stagnant in ideas.

You know what? When liberalisation was attempted by Singh, same farmer groups, communists and socialists did endless protests claiming that corporates will take away their land, and small and medium industries. Yet, we have seen the benefit of it. 

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46 minutes ago, Khota said:

 

(1) The middleman does get some profit but he also floats a loan and halps the farmer out. He is serving muliple purposes over here. This would be replaced by one or two entitie only which can force the price down to destitute level.

 

(2) Increase market size is the biggest load of BS. A farmer with his bullock cart can go no more than few hours away to sell his stuff. Moreover no one has come to give a better price to them than that offered by govt.

 

(3) What restrictions and give example.

 

(4) With or without these bills farmer incomes are heading down. These bills will accelerate that without MSP.

 

Look these beauraucrats are the least qualified to pass farm laws. They have no clue and anyone who understood farming was Akali Dal and they were not consulted.

 

BJP/Congress/AAP or any other party, farming incomes are heading down without govt. help. It is not Modis fault but these bills will accelerate the demise.

 

 

 

So, you have no issues with the bill. "What if" scenarios are endless. Lets be specific. 

 

1) What middleman does is nothing to do with the bill ? We are talking about increasing farmer's income. He hold the produce and it is his to sell directly. Not every farmer procures loans from middlemen. And middlemen can continue to work as money lenders if they wish.

 

2) Well it is for the farmer to figure out whether he wants bigger access or not. No pun intended, but just because I have dont have scale or ambition doesn't everyone shouldn't have it. He has the opportunity. Now its up to him. Status quo will continue if he wishes. 

 

3) Essential commodities act put specific restriction on crops that have to be produced and markets they can be sold at. This has been loosened. 

 

4) Cite a specific clause in the bill which takes away MSP.  Then cite specific clause on MSP that existed in previous bill. Then we can talk

 

So, let me surmise. This bill doesn't change status quo for those who wish to maintain it. This bill only offers opportunity for change for those who want it. APMC and Mandi still remains and continue to get hefty funding from govt ( 1 lakh crore increase in budget ). MSP highest in India's history in 2020.

 

So, I think to make your case you have to point out specific harm from the bill.. Key word being specific clause and specific impact and then we know what your concerns are.

 

Just to highlight again folks. Its not just about rich priveleged farmers in Punjab. Its about all farmers ( other 90 % ).

Edited by ravishingravi
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Vision of Rao/Singh :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

 

What vision is this, the one a blind from birth person gets after eye transplant, aka fall of extreme socialism aka USSR, Berlin wall etc ? Doing better than Cuba & North Korea in shrugging off cancerous economic ideas sure makes these lefties & congress loyalists proud for some reason.

Edited by Clarke
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7 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Vision of Rao/Singh :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

 

What vision is this, the one a blind from birth person gets after eye transplant, aka fall of extreme socialism aka USSR, Berlin wall etc ? Doing better than Cuba & North Korea in shrugging off cancerous economic ideas sure makes these lefties & congress loyalists proud for some reason.

And with the current BJP ideas the per capita GDP of BD just topped India's.

Foreign investment is mostly going to Vietnam and not India. 

Keep on living in a fairy tale world.

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7 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Vision of Rao/Singh :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

 

What vision is this, the one a blind from birth person gets after eye transplant, aka fall of extreme socialism aka USSR, Berlin wall etc ? Doing better than Cuba & North Korea in shrugging off cancerous economic ideas sure makes these lefties & congress loyalists proud for some reason.


whatever the reason, we are where we are today because of Rao’s regime be it economic, rise of BJP or as a nuclear state. Don’t know how old you are but if you vaguely remember the 80’s and grew up as a 90’s kid, we can point out to exactly the time India started changing. Of course the only good thing to come out from Congress post independence:

 

 

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24 minutes ago, urbestfriend said:

>> I am dumb according to you guys so let us just leave it at that.

 

I dont imply that but according to you Modi and his bureaucracy are dumb, so you must be super intelligent to call that. 

 

>> Responding to your question there should be more  job opportunities created so that they can transition to that.

 

But how? You want the industrialists to be taxed heavily than what is currently taxed. Other day you were cribbing about Ambani and Adani making billions and how they are not taxed enough. If you start taxing them heavily, who is going to create jobs? You also crib about PSU's and how the employees are lazy, so PSU's also not viable option to create jobs. Who must create jobs? 

 

>> These are my personal thoughts but India has the most bloated bureaucracy and that really needs to be trimmed. 

>> The model used by British to rule India cannot be continued anymore. Need to disband red tape to make any progress.

OK, so it means less government jobs.

 

>>First economic leap made by India was because of the vision of Rao/Singh. BJP has been fairly stagnant in ideas.

You know what? When liberalisation was attempted by Singh, same farmer groups, communists and socialists did endless protests claiming that corporates will take away their land, and small and medium industries. Yet, we have seen the benefit of it. 

 

Modi never got any input from farmers. Beauraucrats run the show and they are as usual clueless.

 

Taxing should be about leveling the playing field. If someone works 40 hours per week they should enjoy a minimum standard of living. That is an acceptable norm even in capitalistic countries.

 

This taxing the rich will throttle job growth is just that. No proof.

 

Yes agreed less govt. jobs and more private jobs. But the licensces need to be given to multiple private players not just two families. Monopolies need to be broken. They are not good for the country.

 

First people underestimate the contribution of Rao. He probably was the most intelligent and honest PM India had. Second Rao/Singh left farming mostly alone because Rao understood farming better than most.

 

Every Indian is in this together. Dont demonize farmers.

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8 minutes ago, maniac said:


whatever the reason, we are where we are today because of Rao’s regime be it economic, rise of BJP or as a nuclear state. Don’t know how old you are but if you vaguely remember the 80’s and grew up as a 90’s kid, we can point out to exactly the time India started changing. Of course the only good thing to come out from Congress post independence:

 

 

There is a tendency among Indians to underestimate Rao. He laid the groundwork for Singh to be successful. Rao was a genius.

 

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3 minutes ago, Khota said:

There is a tendency among Indians to underestimate Rao. He laid the groundwork for Singh to be successful. Rao was a genius.

 


thats where the buck stops. Singh is not a leader. He is a good resource to have, depending on how you use him.

 

Rao-Vajpayee and now Modi. Rest all

made up the numbers.

 

From the past LBS and Indira.

 

Actually not bad for our relatively young modern history to have 5 good leaders. Not enough though but this is where we are ahead of our neighbors and other developing nations.

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6 minutes ago, maniac said:


whatever the reason, we are where we are today because of Rao’s regime be it economic, rise of BJP or as a nuclear state. Don’t know how old you are but if you vaguely remember the 80’s and grew up as a 90’s kid, we can point out to exactly the time India started changing. Of course the only good thing to come out from Congress post independence:

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Khota said:

And with the current BJP ideas the per capita GDP of BD just topped India's.

Foreign investment is mostly going to Vietnam and not India. 

Keep on living in a fairy tale world.

 

 

I wasn't debating BJP khote da puttar, if you have to wait for 44 years of failed economic policy and then decide to do something about your failures only after the mother ship of socialism USSR collapsed, then its not visionary; its waking up from a very long self induced coma. Getting rid of those shackles was a bare minimum even a 12th pass graduate would have decided to do, doesn't require vision or genius. What was the other option on the table when we ran out of money, looting the Bank of England or US Federal Reserve ? Kidnapping Sean Connery level celebs for ransom ? What took these guys so freakin long to smell the coffee ?

 

This is not saying MMS or Rao were bad or even incompetent, rather the overall ecosystem was so effed up that doing the most fundamental thing decades late is somehow seen as genius or visionary. 

 

PS: what's the latest idea to grow faster than Vietnam, throw more money at farmers :hysterical:

 

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6 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

 

 

I wasn't debating BJP khote da puttar, if you have to wait for 44 years of failed economic policy and then decide to do something about your failures only after the mother ship of socialism USSR collapsed, then its not visionary; its waking up from a very long self induced coma. Getting rid of those shackles was a bare minimum even a 12th pass graduate would have decided to do, doesn't require vision or genius. What was the other option on the table when we ran out of money, looting the Bank of England or US Federal Reserve ? Kidnapping Sean Connery level celebs for ransom ? What took these guys so freakin long to smell the coffee ?

 

This is not saying MMS or Rao were bad or even incompetent, rather the overall ecosystem was so effed up that doing the most fundamental thing decades late is somehow seen as genius or visionary

 

PS: what's the latest idea to grow faster than Vietnam, throw more money at farmers :hysterical:

 


You  make it seem like decision making is a piece of cake when you have your back to the wall or find yourself in a desperate situation .  This is were things can go totally wrong too
 

I would rather argue that decision making is easier if you are Modi and have a total majority and in fact credit Rao and Vajpayee for laying the groundwork and deal with what they had to at that time.

 

Not even getting into who is better argument. 

Edited by maniac
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A guy who fecks around his 20s, totally drains family money in 30s and then finally gets a job to support his family can't be called a role model. Its called not being a loser any more, which isn't high praise. 

 

General ecosystem, not pointing at individuals.

Edited by Clarke
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22 minutes ago, maniac said:


You  make it seem like decision making is a piece of cake when you have your back to the wall or find yourself in a desperate situation .  This is were things can go totally wrong too
 

I would rather argue that decision making is easier if you are Modi and have a total majority and in fact credit Rao and Vajpayee for laying the groundwork and deal with what they had to at that time.

 

Not even getting into who is better argument. 

 

Quite literally Yes! Unless Saddam style raiding of neighborhood or the Die Hard 3 style bank loot was a short term option, which is where things can and will go wrong, so yea I agree there :)

 

I'm someone who's admired both Rao & MMS, sometimes on this forum, but any leftie lover comes out and sings the congi tune about liberalization blah blah I just have to show the reality. If anyone cares about India one bit, they need to think and know about the lost years and decades rather than feel proud of acting at the very last moment. In a way its a criticism of anyone remotely involved in economic policy in those times including the Ram janmabhoomi wali BJP and other opposition : what took you so long ?

 

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