Vaccine theory

[Real McCoy]

4 hours ago, Vilander said:

vaccinate early.. improve vaccine.. vaccinate as often as needed to ensure maximum possible protection to maximum possible population.

 

There should be Covid ministries, covid control departments, covid vaccination service, employed specialized covid workers... from now till eternity basically. 

 

Once covid become endemic in rest of the world.. people who are symptom less should be enlisted in a secret department for china engagement as well.. 

 

ok last line might be written in anger. 

This sounds like some dictator would say. Are you watching too much TV. I hope this is a joke and its not just the last line. When you have educated friends from abroad and home talk like this, it sends me shivers that the "educated" people are buying into this and call for such measures to be taken by the governments. I can only speak for my city here. We did fine with a year of this without taking the vacc so that should be proof enough that the body is able to self immunity. Remember, we don't even take the flu shots that is prevalent in the west and our body is not dependent on these drugs to develop immunity.

[Serpico]

2 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

We did fine with a year of this without taking the vacc so that should be proof enough that the body is able to self immunity

You will do fine until you don't and then it will be too late. I have seen people use same arguments for seatbelts and helmets

[Real McCoy]

1 hour ago, Serpico said:

You will do fine until you don't and then it will be too late. I have seen people use same arguments for seatbelts and helmets

Your analogy of seatbelts doesn't fit here as seatbelts don't interfere with your body's natural immune response. If you know what you are doing, you will stop doing it. Atleast I hope so anyway. Basically you are wishing death on someone. Stop doing it. I know plenty of TV watchers do this on a level that's unbelievable. TV has poisoned their minds so much that every time they think, its full of negativity and this results in words that you wouldn't expect from them normally. Its so bad that I don't even listen when they discuss this topic in real life these days.

[Real McCoy]

12 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

 

 

 

Well.

 

People don't get that a vaccine that is "effective" can't be produced in less than 10 years even after accounting for technological improvements. Basically the vaccines rolled out are untested vaccines and the people who are taking it are guinea pigs. I'm seeing more cases among old people after taking the vaccine than before. One of them was a healthy old man who took no medicines, no disease. He took the vaccine and within a couple of weeks is no more. Another old person is recovering in an hospital because his wife took the vaccine and he did not. This is why I mentioned in the OP that vaccinated people may be asymptomatic disease carriers. What is happening here is people being destroyed for the lack of knowledge.

[ravishingravi]

47 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Your analogy of seatbelts doesn't fit here as seatbelts don't interfere with your body's natural immune response. If you know what you are doing, you will stop doing it. Atleast I hope so anyway. Basically you are wishing death on someone. Stop doing it. I know plenty of TV watchers do this on a level that's unbelievable. TV has poisoned their minds so much that every time they think, its full of negativity and this results in words that you wouldn't expect from them normally. Its so bad that I don't even listen when they discuss this topic in real life these days.

 

I am not sure where I stand on the vaccine. But I have to totally agree with you here. To my mind, this whole things has turned me off media, social media and god forsaken judiciary. @Mariyam wtf is judiciary doing in India. Here I am worried about govt overreach during Pandemic and judiciary has just blown it.

[Serpico]

1 hour ago, Real McCoy said:

Your analogy of seatbelts doesn't fit here as seatbelts don't interfere with your body's natural immune response. If you know what you are doing, you will stop doing it. Atleast I hope so anyway. Basically you are wishing death on someone. Stop doing it. I know plenty of TV watchers do this on a level that's unbelievable. TV has poisoned their minds so much that every time they think, its full of negativity and this results in words that you wouldn't expect from them normally. Its so bad that I don't even listen when they discuss this topic in real life these days.

If you need to log off from information overload, do it, it can be good for you, but you misunderstood ne here. I am not wishing death on anti vaxers, just saying that "everything is fine until now" is not a solid logic. Things can change very quickly, if you aren't prepared for them it will get more complicated than it needs to be. 

[ash]

What a stupid thread. First of all, none of the vaccines promised 100 percent efficacy. The reason India is having many breakthrough infections ( covid after vaccination ) is because our wave is coinciding with the phase 1 of vaccination. Ideally if we had vaccinated a certain amount before the wave struck, we would have less number of breakthroughs. 

 

Covid after vaccines and Covid BECAUSE of vaccines are two different things. There are reports of blood clots with the adenovirus vaccines like AZ and JJ, but are absolutely no reports of vaccines causing COVID. Every expert in the world predicted a second wave, it would have happened even without vaccines. 

[coffee_rules]

1 minute ago, ash said:

What a stupid thread. First of all, none of the vaccines promised 100 percent efficacy. The reason India is having many breakthrough infections ( covid after vaccination ) is because our wave is coinciding with the phase 1 of vaccination. Ideally if we had vaccinated a certain amount before the wave struck, we would have less number of breakthroughs. 

 

Covid after vaccines and Covid BECAUSE of vaccines are two different things. There are reports of blood clots with the adenovirus vaccines like AZ and JJ, but are absolutely no reports of vaccines causing COVID. Every expert in the world predicted a second wave, it would have happened even without vaccines. 

How would we have lesser breakthroughs if we had vaccinated more, when you say the second wave would have happened without vaccines?

[ash]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

How would we have lesser breakthroughs if we had vaccinated more, when you say the second wave would have happened without vaccines?

Simple logic, more number of cases means more no of breakthroughs. Vaccines reduce the rate of transmission, so more vaccination means less spread, less cases and less breakthroughs.

[coffee_rules]

15 minutes ago, ash said:

Simple logic, more number of cases means more no of breakthroughs. Vaccines reduce the rate of transmission, so more vaccination means less spread, less cases and less breakthroughs.

Ok, I read without as with! Vaccinations are the solutions to avoid waves and spread, but when the rate of vaccinations is low, it is hard to avoid second or third wave. Even in developed countries it is as low as India, some countries like UK, France, Brazil , US had second waves. The rate of vaccinations is a challenge, in its ramp up, people need to realize that only thing that saves them is isolation, masking and social distancing. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by coffee_rules

[urbestfriend]

I had gone for vacation back in January time frame, guess what, it seemed corona had vanished. No one wore the mask in that area(remote area), everything was normal. Most businesses were running, people were travelling in public transport just like per-covid times.  One can correlate this with bigger protests that were going on like farmers protest all over india where thousands of people gathered. I for sure thought worse is behind us. If there was no herd immunity achieved, I am sure the numbers would've shot through the roof. 

Yet, it baffles me that second wave started only during feb, and it is getting worse during march/april time frame when Vaccination drive started in late Jan and feb. It is interesting that virus is spreading like a wildfire during the summer in India where the temparature is very high and they say virus is not as effective in the heat as opposed to cold weather. Why is this second wave more serious to younger population compared to phase 1? 

 

I dont have any data, but I am sceptical about the some relation between vaccination and second wave. When I hear that Brazil rejected covaxin because of noncompliance(possible presence of active virus), I am worried about the efficacy of the vaccination. Whether they comply with the best manufacturing practive when they are in a hurry to manufacture crores of vaccination? I see that countries opted for mRNA vaccinations have reduced the overall numbers considerably, so vaccination with inactive dead virus as effective? 

 

Also I keep hearing from the medical fraternity very divergent views. from the initial  assessment of  two weeks after first dose will also give sufficient immunity or two weeks after second dose gives the full immunity, now they have moved on to say that infection might happen after the second dose too, but the reaction is mild. But there are many reports that patient caught corona after second dose including doctors and died. Below are some examples.

 

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2021/apr/26/second-covid-wave-killed-34-doctors-in-april-says-indian-medical-association-2295043.html

All doctors completed the vaccination by March, yet 34 doctors died during April. 

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/37-doctors-of-delhi-hospital-test-positive-for-covid-19-in-last-10-12-days/article34278275.ece

Actual question that what is the efficacy of the vaccine? How do they measure the efficacy? Are they comparing the data before vaccination to after vaccination? When they claim that severity reduces after the vaccination, what is the baseline data they use? Because sever infection happens to minor percentage even before the vaccination so without proper baseline these theories seems ludicrous. 

 

There is also doubt about the safety of the vaccines. They claimed 100% safe, but there are many reports of death after receiving the vaccination. My distant uncle died in a week after the vaccination due to heart attack whereas he was very healthy. We thought it was coincidental, but other reports including actor Vivek makes me think there may be a connection. 

 

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/lab-technician-dies-several-days-after-second-covid-19-shot/article34102818.ece

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/maharashtra-man-dies-after-getting-second-dose-of-covid-vaccine-219951

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/raipur/chhattisgarh-joint-health-director-dies-of-covid-despite-taking-2-vaccine-jabs/articleshow/82075952.cms

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by urbestfriend

[Yoda-esque]

I had gone for vacation back in January time frame, guess what, it seemed corona had vanished. No one wore the mask in that area(remote area), everything was normal. Most businesses were running, people were travelling in public transport just like per-covid times.  One can correlate this with bigger protests that were going on like farmers protest all over india where thousands of people gathered. I for sure thought worse is behind us. If there was no herd immunity achieved, I am sure the numbers would've shot through the roof. 
Yet, it baffles me that second wave started only during feb, and it is getting worse during march/april time frame when Vaccination drive started in late Jan and feb. It is interesting that virus is spreading like a wildfire during the summer in India where the temparature is very high and they say virus is not as effective in the heat as opposed to cold weather. Why is this second wave more serious to younger population compared to phase 1? 
 
I dont have any data, but I am sceptical about the some relation between vaccination and second wave. When I hear that Brazil rejected covaxin because of noncompliance(possible presence of active virus), I am worried about the efficacy of the vaccination. Whether they comply with the best manufacturing practive when they are in a hurry to manufacture crores of vaccination? I see that countries opted for mRNA vaccinations have reduced the overall numbers considerably, so vaccination with inactive dead virus as effective? 
 
Also I keep hearing from the medical fraternity very divergent views. from the initial  assessment of  two weeks after first dose will also give sufficient immunity or two weeks after second dose gives the full immunity, now they have moved on to say that infection might happen after the second dose too, but the reaction is mild. But there are many reports that patient caught corona after second dose including doctors and died. Below are some examples.
 
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2021/apr/26/second-covid-wave-killed-34-doctors-in-april-says-indian-medical-association-2295043.html
All doctors completed the vaccination by March, yet 34 doctors died during April. 
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/37-doctors-of-delhi-hospital-test-positive-for-covid-19-in-last-10-12-days/article34278275.ece
Actual question that what is the efficacy of the vaccine? How do they measure the efficacy? Are they comparing the data before vaccination to after vaccination? When they claim that severity reduces after the vaccination, what is the baseline data they use? Because sever infection happens to minor percentage even before the vaccination so without proper baseline these theories seems ludicrous. 
 
There is also doubt about the efficacy of the vaccines. They claimed 100% safe, but there are many reports of death after receiving the vaccination. My distant uncle died in a week after the vaccination due to heart attack whereas he was very healthy. We thought it was coincidental, but other reports including actor Vivek makes me think there may be a connection. 
 
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/lab-technician-dies-several-days-after-second-covid-19-shot/article34102818.ece
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/maharashtra-man-dies-after-getting-second-dose-of-covid-vaccine-219951
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/raipur/chhattisgarh-joint-health-director-dies-of-covid-despite-taking-2-vaccine-jabs/articleshow/82075952.cms
 
 
 
 

Heart attack and multiple organ failure is caused by covid only, preceded by low plasma count and cytokine storm

[ash]

@urbestfriendVaccines are not the reason for the second wave. There is no data to prove that. Even though public and govt acted as if Covid is conquered, every expert kept warning that second wave will come. Don't blame vaccines for our stupidity. 

 

Your others points are valid. We have to study the breakthrough infections. It can be due to the variant which escapes the antibodies. Or not enough antibodies are produced. Genome sequencing is important. Or it can simply be because the case count is too much so the breakthroughs are also more. 

 

mRNA vaccines are indeed better than adenovirus vaccines, but getting one in India is not possible. Maybe if private players enter the market, the urban rich can get mRNA vaccines in the future. 

[urbestfriend]

1 hour ago, ash said:

@urbestfriendVaccines are not the reason for the second wave. There is no data to prove that. Even though public and govt acted as if Covid is conquered, every expert kept warning that second wave will come. Don't blame vaccines for our stupidity. 

 

Your others points are valid. We have to study the breakthrough infections. It can be due to the variant which escapes the antibodies. Or not enough antibodies are produced. Genome sequencing is important. Or it can simply be because the case count is too much so the breakthroughs are also more. 

 

mRNA vaccines are indeed better than adenovirus vaccines, but getting one in India is not possible. Maybe if private players enter the market, the urban rich can get mRNA vaccines in the future. 

How can we have data for something which cannot be proved? But important question is what triggered massive surge in covid cases? Scientists said back in January that 50% of indians have antibodies against covid and India is near herd immunity.  They said second wave, even it comes,  will be less severe as people have antibodies. Yet we have a situation where this time, it is 10 times dangerous than the first time. There are many young people dying this time, much more than first wave. SO if we had achieved herd immunity, what triggered this variant of coronavirus for which antibodies are not working? We have no theory, no data and no hypothesis except blaming the negligence of people. No data about vaccination is effective against this mutant.  

Also this time, there is severe underreporting about death count. Death count is 5x more than whats reported. Every states are severely underreporting.

[ash]

8 minutes ago, urbestfriend said:

How can we have data for something which cannot be proved? But important question is what triggered massive surge in covid cases? Scientists said back in January that 50% of indians have antibodies against covid and India is near herd immunity.  They said second wave, even it comes,  will be less severe as people have antibodies. Yet we have a situation where this time, it is 10 times dangerous than the first time. There are many young people dying this time, much more than first wave. SO if we had achieved herd immunity, what triggered this variant of coronavirus for which antibodies are not working? We have no theory, no data and no hypothesis except blaming the negligence of people. No data about vaccination is effective against this mutant.  

Also this time, there is severe underreporting about death count. Death count is 5x more than whats reported. Every states are severely underreporting.

 

1) Antibodies for viral fevers do not last long. Experts always said that antibodies will be there only for 6-8 months. Nobody claimed that once you get Corona you won't get again. We never achieved herd immunity. 

 

2) It is not a rule that second wave should be less than first wave. Infact in US , the third wave was deadliest. Virus mutate and some variants have more transmission than the previous version. The new Indian variant seem to be more contagious.

 

All this death rate is because of a variant that is more contagious and the govt poor planning. No need to blame vaccines for this

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by ash

[coffee_rules]

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

19 minutes ago, urbestfriend said:

what triggered this variant

 

Variants are always triggered by random chance.  With each round of replication, 1000s of variants are generated.  Most of them make no difference.  Very few of them acquire a random gene sequence that makes them more powerful (evade immunity etc) and become VOCs (Variants of Concern).  

 

Lower the rate of replication --> Lower the emergence of random variants --> Lower the emergence of VOCs. 

 

If a VOC emerges in one patient, but precautions were in place, it would not have spread to a critical number of people to get out of control.  Because spread is exponential, extreme caution at the front end has tremendous benefits on the back end.  Conversely neglect at the front end is multiplied many times over at the back end.  

 

One example is the AP variant.  It was reported last year.  It is 15x more deadly, but doesn't spread as fast.  But it had not completely died down because people were moving around.  And now, it reached a critical number and boom ... out of control.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

 

 

Bull ****.  Vaccines cause variants.  Yes, I am being sarcastic.

Edited May 6, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[urbestfriend]

25 minutes ago, ash said:

 

1) Antibodies for viral fevers do not last long. Experts always said that antibodies will be there only for 6-8 months. Nobody claimed that once you get Corona you won't get again. We never achieved herd immunity. 

 

2) It is not a rule that second wave should be less than first wave. Infact in US , the third wave was deadliest. Virus mutate and some variants have more transmission than the previous version. The new Indian variant seem to be more contagious.

 

All this death rate is because of a variant that is more contagious and the govt poor planning. No need to blame vaccines for this

 

 

https://fortune.com/2021/02/03/delhi-covid-antibodies-india-declining-cases-herd-immunity/ 

End of January Delhi had 32 hospitalization and 3 deaths. Now 20K cases and thousands of death. What has triggered this wave? We had farmer protests where lakhs of people participating way back in december and january which didn't trigger this wave. But now we have a situation where virtual lockdown is not preventing thousands of cases everyday. 

Does scientific community have any answers what triggered this mutation? 

[BacktoCricaddict]

Just now, urbestfriend said:

Does scientific community have any answers what triggered this mutation? 

Yes. random variation.  See explanation above, bhai.