Playing 2 spinners “overseas” a concern

[Lord]

39 minutes ago, zen said:

All that is already taking into account including Latham playing a loose shot where he tried to chip it over Kohli. The other wkts in 1st inning which included #10 Wagner and a Southee going for big hits with #11 batting (he clubbed a 6 before getting out trying to get another big shot on. The ball hit his pads and then the stumps). In the 2nd, Latham again stepped out to get stumped. Only good wkt was Conway’s as he missed the straight one to be LBW

With 3 seamers (w/ 2 of them old), they could not bowl with intensity for long, again showing where Ind missed the 4th seamer badly (already addressed)  

 

Ind is known to make strategic and tactical blunders.

 

 

Latham's wickets in both innings were very valid. In first his wicket was preceded by Ashwin tying him up.In 2nd he beat him in the air.That's how spinners take wickets

 

and the match lasted 3.5 days. It had just started to turn

 

Pacers tiring is an excuse.We have played and so many games with 3 pacers.That too in heat.Its not as if they were effective when fresh.Spin could have been bowled more to keep them fresh

 

Pacers took a wicket every 15 overs this.Spin 8

[zen]

Just now, Lord said:

 

Latham's wickets in both innings were very valid. In first his wicket was preceded by Ashwin tying him up.In 2nd he beat him in the air.That's how spinners take wickets

 

 

 

Pacers tiring is an excuse.We have played and so many games with 3 pacers.That too in heat.Its not as if they were effective when fresh.Spin could have been bowled more to keep them fresh

 

Pacers took a wicket every 15 overs this.Spin 8

 

Do yourself a favor to not discuss #s with me (I know most of the numbers at the back of my hand)    ... Please understand: 

 

a) In the detrimental first inning, the 3 seamers bowled 75 overs. A 4th seamer opens up new doors and equations as already mentioned multiple times on this thread

b) Saying that match only lasted for 3.5 days again shows the need to play the 4th seamer 

c) How the spinners picked up most of the wkts is already discussed. If a spinner bowl 2 overs with ppl going for strokes and picks up 2 wkts, of course, his wkt per overs is meaningless. Everyone knows that in the first inning for e.g. the wkts of #2 to #8 were picked up by seamers 

 

 

 

 

 

[NareshK]

The problem with playing 4th seamer is India will have even longer tail. Because the tail doesnt contribute to begin with, another seamer at 8, effectively means Pant is the last recognized batsman and if India is 5 down, not much will be added thereafter. That puts whole lot more pressure on batsmen. So the better solution would have been either to go with Shardul or Pandya(if he is fit) or with another batsman. 2 spinners on a track which was going to help seamers was a dumb decision. But then, India always plays with this strategy backing Jadeja or Ashwin's batting ability but they only score occasionally and they are not reliable.

[Lord]

[cowboysfan]

playing these 2 is fine unless they suck at batting. 

[Gollum]

5 hours ago, zen said:

I do not think spinners bowled well. The wkts they picked up in first inning included a #10 Wagner and Southee who was swinging his bat as he was batting with #11. Latham was a loose shot. In the second inning, spinners should have done better but NZ only lost 2 wkts 

They bowled well, especially Ashwin, and not just based on the stats of 25 overs, 10 maidens, 4/45. 

 

Loose shot doesn't mean the wicket wasn't earned, all part of a setup (was making him drive through the open gap with more flight after a series of darts) and pressure. Otherwise even Kiwis took many wickets courtesy ordinary deliveries, like Rahane's 2 dismissals or Pant yesterday. But what is important is how they forced the error from the batsmen, same funda whether cricket, tennis or football. You don't see deliveries like Warne to Gatting every day, dismissals are mostly by drawing errors than unplayable deliveries, just like how you see more unforced errors than winners in tennis matches even when GOATs are playing.  

 

Final innings mein spinners didn't get enough overs to make a difference. If one of the quicks had stepped up or if target was say 180 instead of 130 something....maybe we had a chance. 

 

I do agree leaving Thakur out of the 15 was a blunder. Just saying that spinners didn't let us down, TM however may have to rethink its strategy before Trent Bridge test. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

 

There shud have been player of this whole phase award or something- Ashwin shud have been given that

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

They bowled well, especially Ashwin, and not just based on the stats of 25 overs, 10 maidens, 4/45. 

 

Loose shot doesn't mean the wicket wasn't earned, all part of a setup (was making him drive through the open gap with more flight after a series of darts) and pressure. Otherwise even Kiwis took many wickets courtesy ordinary deliveries, like Rahane's 2 dismissals or Pant yesterday. But what is important is how they forced the error from the batsmen, same funda whether cricket, tennis or football. You don't see deliveries like Warne to Gatting every day, dismissals are mostly by drawing errors than unplayable deliveries, just like how you see more unforced errors than winners in tennis matches even when GOATs are playing.  

 

 

I agree in general. But in spinners' case, the pressure was already created in the first inning, which is why Latham played the loose stroke. Other two wkts have been discussed. The seamers picked up #2 to #8 

 

 

Quote

Final innings mein spinners didn't get enough overs to make a difference. If one of the quicks had stepped up or if target was say 180 instead of 130 something....maybe we had a chance. 

 

Which again shows Ind missed the trick by not playing the 4th seamer, which could have helped to rotate the bowlers better and bowl with more intensity ... Spinners did not get the opportunity to make a difference (as it is difficult for them to do in this conditions) 

 

If Ind is replaying this game, most folks are likely to recommend playing the 4th seamer 

[Lord]

8 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

There shud have been player of this whole phase award or something- Ashwin shud have been given that

 

Jamieson was another contender

 

Ashwin's clearly the best spinner today.Very tough to drop unless its a greentop

[Gollum]

8 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

There shud have been player of this whole phase award or something- Ashwin shud have been given that

Most wickets

Bowler	Mat	Inns	Wkts	Runs	Overs	BBI	BBM	Avg	5WI	10WM
Ravichandran Ashwin	14	26	71	1444	549.4	7/145	9/207	20.33	4	0
Pat Cummins	14	28	70	1472	555.3	5/28	7/69	21.02	1	0
Stuart Broad	17	32	69	1386	499.3	6/31	10/67	20.08	2	1
Tim Southee	11	22	56	1166	431.3	5/32	9/110	20.82	3	0
Nathan Lyon	14	27	56	1757	630.5	6/49	10/118	31.37	4	1
Last updated: 23 June 2021[44]

 

Ashwin didn't play in the WI tour, Christchurch and Gabba tests, hardly bowled in Kolkata pink ball test against BD. Gap could have been much wider. 

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

 

Jamieson was another contender

Didn't play in Aus where NZ was hammered senseless, debut after SL tour so missed that as well. NZ didn't go to BD cos of COVID. All home tests and this WTC F in familiar conditions. Let us see what he does in the next cycle. 

[zen]

Oh boy, surprised to see Ind play 4 seamers in the 1st test v Eng! Good work Team Ind! 

[vishalvirsingh]

i think Siraj and Shardul bowled well and one of them bats better than ashwin. Ashwin in a great spinner but on green tracks , he does give away a lot of runs to get his wickets. 

Jaddu is probably picked ahead of hanuma vihari as they think jaddu may score a 50. i think it is a fair call on green wickets to pick jaddu who bats and fields way better than ashwin. on green tracks ash wont do much as he would probably buy wickets. 

 

just see how many times shardul and siraj beat english batsman and many times they were about to get wickets. both swung the ball and even shammi swung the ball.

 

with this bowling , i am sure england batsman wont score big in the second innings too..if we score 225 runs in first innings also we are winning this test match.

 

[Vk1]

4 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said:

i think Siraj and Shardul bowled well and one of them bats better than ashwin. Ashwin in a great spinner but on green tracks , he does give away a lot of runs to get his wickets. 

Jaddu is probably picked ahead of hanuma vihari as they think jaddu may score a 50. i think it is a fair call on green wickets to pick jaddu who bats and fields way better than ashwin. on green tracks ash wont do much as he would probably buy wickets. 

 

just see how many times shardul and siraj beat english batsman and many times they were about to get wickets. both swung the ball and even shammi swung the ball.

 

with this bowling , i am sure england batsman wont score big in the second innings too..if we score 225 runs in first innings also we are winning this test match.

 

 

In overseas, Ashwin is always a better pick than Jadeja.. whatever the conditions.. Jadeja's batting is highly overrated in SENA

[vishalvirsingh]

4 hours ago, Vk1 said:

 

In overseas, Ashwin is always a better pick than Jadeja.. whatever the conditions.. Jadeja's batting is highly overrated in SENA

as a spinner ash n jaddu r chalk n cheese....ash is the cheese..much better.

 

but in fielding..jaddu saves 25 runs in a test match so he starts his batting 25 runs ahead of ash...

 

in batting jaddu is in his form of life kinda likely to score good runs in this test. ash has gone down as batsman. 

 

on swinging pitch..he gives away some runs..even jaddu leaks runs

 

anyway i expect 19 or 20 wickets to be taken by pacers. siraj will bounce back with 3 wickets in next innings.

[vishalvirsingh]

all 4 pacers looked good yesterday...all 4 bowled some jaffa's...some unplayable balls

[R!TTER]

5 hours ago, Vk1 said:

Jadeja's batting is highly overrated in SENA

Overrated how?

[Nikhil_cric]

4 fast bowlers in SENA should not ever change for us. We are a bowling team now and need to focus on getting 20 wickets as cheaply as possible. All the cries for lower order batting need to stop . It's not as if the main batsmen are scoring daddy hundreds or anything. 

[zen]

Saw the scorecard of the 1st Test, Jadeja had not much role to play with the ball

[Trichromatic]

3 hours ago, zen said:

Saw the scorecard of the 1st Test, Jadeja had not much role to play with the ball

So he was the batsman, same thing we said all along.