Playing 2 spinners “overseas” a concern

[neel roy]

Also remember and think of a scenario.. kane williamson comes out and tried to hit ashwin over cover and the ball is in the air.. ball coming down.. heart in mouth.. who do you want to be under it if you have your life to bet on.. sir jadeja.. the fielding itself is worth 20 runs and a wicket.. remember the throw which got steve smith out in sydney or the catch nearly colliding with over enthusiastic Gill.. match turning moments..

[Adamant]

Both of them should play. Ravindra Jadeja is as good as a proper batsman and doesn't leak runs. 

Also, having four number 11 batsman in the team won't really be a good idea. 

[gattaca]

Jadeja is the best allrounder from India. He has batted really well in overseas conditions. He got couple of 50s in england. His fielding and bowling are top notch as well. Ashwin has good amount of county experience as well. Conditions are dry like many ICFers @Austin 3:!6 has said multiple times. 

[Lord]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

Buddy,  Kuldeep and Sunder, along with probably even Vihari, have done well in Aus too 

 

Proposition is simple - if conditions are how like Gavaskar describes, playing 2 spinners may have a case 

 

If not (esp. in cloudy and rainy conditions), Ind would  need the 4th seamer (all good quality bowlers)… Playing Jadeja (or Ashwin) at 7, if they are batting well, is ok and a different discussion 

 

 

The only fourth seamer we can play is Thakur as others are not capable with bat.

 

Unless conditions are excessively swing friendly,I'd go with spin and expect them to adjust simply because they are better/more experienced.

 

Also English weather is most unpredictable and changes quickly

[Adamant]

If the pitch is seamer friendly and the conditions are dangerously overcast then even three pacers would be enough, no need of that extra pacer. 

And if the conditions are mildly pacer friendly then there's no harm in selecting Ashwin and Jaddu. 

 

[deathmonger]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

Buddy,  Kuldeep and Sunder, along with probably even Vihari, have done well in Aus too 

 

Proposition is simple - if conditions are how like Gavaskar describes, playing 2 spinners may have a case 

 

If not (esp. in cloudy and rainy conditions), Ind would  need the 4th seamer (all good quality bowlers)… Playing Jadeja (or Ashwin) at 7, if they are batting well, is ok and a different discussion 

 

Rubbish.

 

Kuldeep did well in that one match in Sydney where he was good.

 

In 2021

Sundar averaged 42.25

Ashwin 28.83 and Jadeja 15.00.

 

In 2018

Vihari averaged 47

Ashwin 24.83 and Jadeja 28.57.

 

There is no comparison.

[deathmonger]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

You are comparing figures of completed careers with people whose careers are still in progress. Ashwin Jadeja's figures are like that cause they have the 2011/14 numbers when they were rookies.

 

Post Kohli captaincy and the emergence of the pace attack in 2015, these two have been the best two spinners in SENA.

 

Jadeja (26.47) and Ashwin (29.97) are the only two spinners with a sub 30 average in SENA in that time period. Lyon(32.89), Maharaj (32.28), Ali (40.48), Shah (55.08) are all way way more.

Jadeja also averages 49.87 with the bat in SENA in this time period.

 

And even if you do a series by series comparison, they haven't had a bad nightmare series at all (like Lyon in BGT 20/21 or Shah in Australia 2016 etc)

 

SA 2018

Ashwin 30.71

 

Eng 2018

Ashwin 32.72

Jadeja 36.85 bowl, 99 bat

 

Aus 18/19

Ashwin 24.83

Jadeja 28.57 bowl, 30 bat

 

NZ 20

Ashwin 33

Jadeja 23 bowl, 25 bat

 

Aus 20/21

Ashwin 28.83

Jadeja 15 bowl, 85 bat

 

So you get one very good spinner who can bat a bit and also one good spinner who is as good as a proper batsman.

 

[zen]

23 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

You are comparing figures of completed careers with people whose careers are still in progress. Ashwin Jadeja's figures are like that cause they have the 2011/14 numbers when they were rookies.

 

Such things don't matter for experienced players   

 

 

23 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

Post Kohli captaincy and the emergence of the pace attack in 2015, these two have been the best two spinners in SENA.

 

Jadeja (26.47) and Ashwin (29.97) are the only two spinners with a sub 30 average in SENA in that time period. Lyon(32.89), Maharaj (32.28), Ali (40.48), Shah (55.08) are all way way more.

Jadeja also averages 49.87 with the bat in SENA in this time period.

 

Most Ind spinners have such numbers so it is not about these two in particular, guys like Jadeja have probably played in relatively more helpful conditions (unlike key SENA spinners who play almost all games on a variety of surfaces):

 

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2015

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
GH Vihari	2018-2021	9	7	45.3	9	132	5	3/37	3/38	26.40	2.90	54.6	0	0
RA Jadeja	2018-2021	6	10	218.3	39	609	23	4/62	7/258	26.47	2.78	57.0	0	0
Kuldeep Yadav	2018-2019	2	2	40.5	7	143	5	5/99	5/99	28.60	3.50	49.0	1	0
R Ashwin	2015-2021	12	22	532.1	99	1416	44	4/55	7/121	32.18	2.66	72.5	0	0
Washington Sundar	2021-2021	1	2	49.0	7	169	4	3/89	4/169	42.25	3.44	73.5	0	0

 

In fact, guys like Ashwin have failed in relatively helpful conditions like at Rose Bowl last yr where Moeen did well 

Edited June 16, 2021 by zen

[zen]

29 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

 

The only fourth seamer we can play is Thakur as others are not capable with bat.

 

Unless conditions are excessively swing friendly,I'd go with spin and expect them to adjust simply because they are better/more experienced.

 

Also English weather is most unpredictable and changes quickly

 

If the conditions support pacers, I would not sacrifice pace attack power, which can influence the game big time, for a theoretical depth at #8 

[zen]

41 minutes ago, neel roy said:

Also remember and think of a scenario.. kane williamson comes out and tried to hit ashwin over cover and the ball is in the air.. ball coming down.. heart in mouth.. who do you want to be under it if you have your life to bet on.. sir jadeja.. the fielding itself is worth 20 runs and a wicket.. remember the throw which got steve smith out in sydney or the catch nearly colliding with over enthusiastic Gill.. match turning moments..

 

That would matter if the spinners bowled well ... Not if they allowed the batsmen to settle in seam friendly conditions with Kane getting out after a decent score

[Lord]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

 

If the conditions support pacers, I would not sacrifice pace attack power, which can influence the game big time, for a theoretical depth at #8 

 

Its not theoretical. Lower order batting is often needed in these situations.I wouldn't want Ishant/Shami there at 8

 

And in such conditions 3 pacers are enough most times

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Lord

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Its not theoretical. Lower order batting is often needed in these situations.I wouldn't want Ishant/Shami there at 8

 

And in such conditions 3 pacers are enough most times

 

 

 

In certain conditions, if the #8 is going to score say 15 runs and where a 4 pace attack can get the other team out for 50 less runs ... in such scenarios, such batting depths are theoretical 

 

You are focused on certain dimensions/formulas, potentially ignoring the possibility to have a bowling attack suited to conditions that can bowl the other team out for a relatively low total 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, zen said:

A spinner is a better bowler when these guys need rank turners to even look good

This is utter nonsense.  Ignorance.  Jadeja has bowled very well away from home, especially as 4th bowler.  And Ashwin bowled extremely well before he got injured during the last England tour.  His dismissal of Alistair Cook was quality, and last I checked there were no "rank turners" in that series.  Unless you have some special cherry-picking spy glasses on.  

[zen]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This is utter nonsense.  Ignorance.  Jadeja has bowled very well away from home, especially as 4th bowler.  And Ashwin bowled extremely well before he got injured during the last England tour.  His dismissal of Alistair Cook was quality, and last I checked there were no "rank turners" in that series.  Unless you have some special cherry-picking spy glasses on.  

 

Has Jadeja played on all kinds of surfaces "overseas" or on selected ones?

 

(PS I know the answer)

Edited June 16, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

Has Jadeja played on all kinds of surfaces overseas or on selected ones?

 

(PS I know the answer)

so now the goalposts shift from 'overseas', to "selected ones". 

 

You are making rando broad generalized claims, false ones at that, to support your personal preference for not playing 2 spinners.  Past is past, its relevant, but only up to a certain degree.  What is pertinent, is what these players can offer in terms of skill and execution, for the upcoming test, given what we know about Southampton, given what we know about the opponents, and the fact that you should play your best 5 bowlers - as a unit - everything else is noise.

 

This is not to assert that 2 spinners is unquestionably the way to go - its arguable.  But for someone to claim that its a "bad" idea, and cite subjective assertions as fact, is......exactly what it is. 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

so now the goalposts shift from 'overseas', to "selected ones". 

 

You are making rando broad generalized claims, false ones at that, to support your personal preference for not playing 2 spinners.  Past is past, its relevant, but only up to a certain degree.  What is pertinent, is what these players can offer in terms of skill and execution, for the upcoming test, given what we know about Southampton, given what we know about the opponents, and the fact that you should play your best 5 bowlers - as a unit - everything else is noise.

 

This is not to assert that 2 spinners is unquestionably the way to go - its arguable.  But for someone to claim that its a "bad" idea, and cite subjective assertions as fact, is......exactly what it is. 

 

I have made my point clear in the OP: "If conditions are as Gavaskar describes (ignoring the weather report), may be there is a justification, but the thought of playing two spinners overseas (at the expense of the 4th quality seamer, giving the team more chances of one of the 4 seamers (v one of 3) having a great day in these conditions) is a concern!"

 

As you saw from the OP, otherwise I do not think having these 2 spinners as a part of the bowling attack constitutes as best attack, when these guys need rank turners to look good 

Edited June 16, 2021 by zen

[Norman]

OP is one of the best posters on this board but his constant and obvious agenda against certain players gets really tiring at times. 

[express bowling]

Our bottom 6 should have been

 

6. Pant 

7. Jadeja

8. Ashwin / Shardul

9. Siraj

10. Ishant

11. Bumrah

 

 

Shardul should have been in the squad of 15.

 

Choose Ashwin if conditions are expected to favour spin for the last 2 or 3 days.

 

Choose Shardul if cloud cover is expected on most days or conditions are really conducive to seam bowling.

 

But with Shardul not in the squad, this is not happening.

Edited June 16, 2021 by express bowling

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, zen said:

 

 

These stats have bothered me for a long time.

[Gollum]

Stats are skewed because of 2011-12/14-15 Aus, 2014 Basin Reserve test etc. which were outliers, won't get such pattas every time and on those kind of pitches even ATGs will suffer never mind inexperienced spinners (which Ash/Jaddu were at that stage of their careers). 

 

Recent form is key and we saw how these 2 guys turned the Aus series around in Melbourne. I am sure these 2 are the best spinners in the world atm, conditions be damned!!!! Jaddu is metronomic in his accuracy/precision plus that subtlety......Ashwin's drift is a thing of beauty and he also opens up all kinds of dismissal options with his variety/guile. Unless it is a green top they have enough in their arsenal to be match-winners. 

 

Jaddu is also one of the most reliable batsmen in this squad, gives me more confidence than Kohli, Che, Rahane. I would take only Pant above him presently. Ace fielder, bowling everyone knows, MVP of this test side, I mean look at his numbers since 2018-19. He is at the peak of his powers and first name on the team sheet. 

 

Ashwin is deadly against LHBs and the Conway/Latham/Nicholls trio will present a formidable challenge. Moreover he has a terrific record against Kiwis, dominates the match-ups against a few of their batsmen, in general NZ isn't as proficient when it comes to playing spin even on balanced pitches overseas. And he can bat, not as good as the present version of Jaddu but significantly better than our other specialist quicks in the 15.

 

Another advantage of Ash/Jaddu is that even if they aren't picking up wickets they tie up an end, can bowl marathon spells at 1.5-2.5 rpo on the flattest of decks, easier for quicks to attack with full energy throughout the day. Bowlers like Yasir, Maharaj, Moeen, Santner tend to leak runs...Lyon too can block one end up but not as well as the 2 Indians.  

 

You can't have 4 #11s in your team, recipe for disaster. Imagine a situation where we are 190/6 with a well set Kohli or Pant, 15 overs until new ball and then 4 headless chickens to spoil our innings. We can pick 4 pacers if the 4th one is a Thakur/Bhuvi type guy who knows who to wield the willow.  That is out of the picture now because of the 15 we have selected. This is more or less a forced move to play both spinners. Ideally we should have had Thakur instead of Umesh, but what is done is done. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Gollum