Playing 2 spinners “overseas” a concern

[zen]

11 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

These stats have bothered me for a long time.

 

IMO, since 90s, rank turners have: 

 

a) made the spinners relatively lazy because they became used to picking up easy wkts (overseas, you have to work harder for wkts. Guys like Swann were fondly said to be able to turn the ball even on ice)

b) impacted the relatively rapid development of a fast and/or most conditions bowling attack/culture because the team was probably satisfied with wins at home 

 

Which is why Srinath's performance at A'bad in 1996 v SA is legendary. It opened up our eyes on what Ind could do with pace too 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

16 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Our bottom 6 should have been

 

6. Pant 

7. Jadeja

8. Ashwin / Shardul

9. Siraj

10. Ishant

11. Bumrah

 

 

Shardul should have been in the squad of 15.

 

Choose Ashwin if conditions are expected to favour spin for the last 2 or 3 days.

 

Choose Shardul if cloud cover is expected on most days or conditions are really conducive to seam bowling.

 

But with Shardul not in the squad, this is not happening.

And Sundar sound have been in the squad of 15, in case Ash/Jadeja are playing and get concussed. 

[maniac]

2 guys who would have been very useful in these conditions to maintain a good combo are Bhuvi and Pandya. However what exactly is the point of investing heavily all these years in them despite constant non-availability during crucial situations like this?

 

Pandya obviously has some must have qualities for LOI’s but Bhuvi has been a total let down. A swing bowler who is not available for SENA conditions. Am I missing something?

 

In fact Bhuvi the bowling allrounder would have solved the issue of playing 2 spinners.

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

And Sundar sound have been in the squad of 15, in case Ash/Jadeja are playing and get concussed. 

Sundar, Thakur both should have been in the squad of 15. 

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

 

 

 

Which is why Srinath's performance at A'bad in 1996 v SA is legendary. It opened up our eyes on what Ind could do with pace too 

 

 

Prasad I remember ran through SA in that series too iirc. I think at that point Indians were catching on to exploiting reverse swing in dry conditions where the ball becomes perfect. Remember now even guys like Steyn and Anderson recently  have used it with a lot of success in SC.

 

Also just because there are helpful conditions doesn’t mean it becomes easy. There have been many instances where Indian spinners have outbowled even Warne,Murali,Herat etc and rookie and average  fast bowlers like Bresnan have outbowled better  Indian fast bowlers in English conditions.

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Sundar, Thakur both should have been in the squad of 15. 

So basically the 2 of the 3 guys who were critical to win in Gabba are dropped. Anyways india has a problem of plenty right now.

[Trichromatic]

@zen whom do you want to remove? Jadeja or Ashwin.

 

Ashwin is best spinner in the world, so he will play.

 

Jadeja is among top 4 batsmen for India, so he has to play:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Avehttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	2016-2021	50	81	6	4496	254*	59.94	7455	60.30	16	13	8	487	13	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RG Sharma	2016-2021	22	35	6	1719	212	59.27	2746	62.60	5	8	0	185	42	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RA Jadeja	2016-2021	35	49	17	1481	100*	46.28	2354	62.91	1	14	2	120	44	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
CA Pujara	2016-2021	53	86	3	3824	202	46.07	8981	42.57	11	22	7	440	9	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MA Agarwal	2018-2021	14	23	0	1052	243	45.73	1931	54.47	3	4	1	123	23	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RR Pant	2018-2021	20	33	3	1358	159*	45.26	1900	71.47	3	6	1	145	33	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
S Dhawan	2016-2018	15	25	0	1007	190	40.28	1309	76.92	3	3	0	142	8	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
AM Rahane	2016-2021	51	83	8	2964	188	39.52	6287	47.14	6	16	5	316	20	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
KL Rahul	2016-2019	31	50	2	1750	199	36.45	3014	58.06	3	11	6	208	12	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
WP Saha	2016-2020	27	33	7	884	117	34.00	1840	48.04	3	3	3	84	9	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
M Vijay	2016-2018	24	40	0	1352	155	33.80	3003	45.02	6	3	4	145	12	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
GH Vihari	2018-2021	12	21	2	624	111	32.84	1466	42.56	1	4	1	83	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
HH Pandya	2017-2018	11	18	1	532	108	31.29	720	73.88	1	4	2	68	12	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Ashwin	2016-2021	46	61	4	1452	118	25.47	2922	49.69	3	5	3	170	6

 

Will you be ok, if Jadeja plays as batsman only (he is good enough as batsman) and Ashwin is lone spinner? 

[zen]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

@zen whom do you want to remove? Jadeja or Ashwin.

 

Ashwin is best spinner in the world, so he will play.

 

Jadeja is among top 4 batsmen for India, so he has to play:

 

Will you be ok, if Jadeja plays as batsman only (he is good enough as batsman) and Ashwin is lone spinner? 

 

I am not sure of the current conditions at Southampton, which is one of the reasons for the thread. I am assuming the conditions to lean towards cloudy/rainy, which advocates playing 4 seamers. Chances of having 1 out of 4 quality pacers having a great game v 1 out of 3 is better. Because of the squad selection, playing 4 pacers could relatively weaken the batting at only one spot #8, but if the conditions favor these bowlers, Ind could attack all the time with 4 pacers, reducing NZ to a lower total that would offset any theoretical advantage of having a relatively better batsman (anyone batting at #8 is not likely to be a specialist level batsman) at #8 

 

At #7, depending on batting form, I have no issues with having a Jadeja or a Ashwin or whoever ... It would be a different topic

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I am not sure of the current conditions at Southampton, which is one of the reasons for the thread. I am assuming the conditions to lean towards cloudy/rainy, which advocates playing 4 seamers. Chances of having 1 out of 4 quality pacers having a great game v 1 out of 3 is better. Because of the squad selection, playing 4 pacers could relatively weaken the batting at only one spot #8, but if the conditions favor these bowlers, Ind could attack all the time with 4 pacers, reducing NZ to a lower total that would offset any theoretical advantage of having a relatively better batsman (anyone batting at #8 is not likely to be a specialist level batsman) at #8 

 

At #7, depending on batting form, I have no issues with having a Jadeja or a Ashwin or whoever ... It would be a different topic

 

Hypotethcally say Jadeja plays only as batsman. Which combination will you choose? 3 pacers and 1 spinner in Ashwin or 4 pacers?

[zen]

8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Hypotethcally say Jadeja plays only as batsman. Which combination will you choose? 3 pacers and 1 spinner in Ashwin or 4 pacers?

 

As I said, assuming the conditions to be cloudy/rainy, 4 pacers to be able to constantly attack with the ball to reduce NZ to a low total, offsetting any advantage of having a relatively better batsman (who is not a specialist batsman) at #8 

 

If the conditions are like what Gavaskar says hot and dry, Ind can go with both these spinners. In that case, the discussion would be more about picking the best in form pacers as Ind has quality options 

Edited June 16, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

24 minutes ago, maniac said:

2 guys who would have been very useful in these conditions to maintain a good combo are Bhuvi and Pandya. However what exactly is the point of investing heavily all these years in them despite constant non-availability during crucial situations like this?

 

Pandya obviously has some must have qualities for LOI’s but Bhuvi has been a total let down. A swing bowler who is not available for SENA conditions. Am I missing something?

 

In fact Bhuvi the bowling allrounder would have solved the issue of playing 2 spinners.

 

Yeah you are.  You can't predict injuries, and when you have a captain prioritizing meaningless ODI games ahead of a crucial test series, that doesn't help either.

[express bowling]

Jadeja should play every test, if fit 

 

His batting has been really good in the last 4 years.

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, maniac said:

2 guys who would have been very useful in these conditions to maintain a good combo are Bhuvi and Pandya. However what exactly is the point of investing heavily all these years in them despite constant non-availability during crucial situations like this?

 

Pandya obviously has some must have qualities for LOI’s but Bhuvi has been a total let down. A swing bowler who is not available for SENA conditions. Am I missing something?

 

In fact Bhuvi the bowling allrounder would have solved the issue of playing 2 spinners.

 

 

 

Neither Bhuvi nor Hardik have bowled in a 4 day or 5 day match for a long time.

 

Can't choose players who have not been fit for the longer format for a long time.

[gattaca]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

 

Neither Bhuvi nor Hardik have bowled in a 4 day or 5 day match for a long time.

 

Can't choose players who have not been fit for the longer format for a long time.

Doubt they are long term options for test cricket as well. The amount of IPL they play and it’s been few years both of them have been in and out of internationals. They should have been selected for few matches but they will payed every useless match. Pandya has been injured quite sometime Bhuvneshwar as well.

[Khota]

Both Ashwin and Jadeja need to play. If there are two bette spinners they need to play butthere is no doubt in my mind two spinners need to play.

[Ankit_sharma03]

nothing of a concern, both arent just spinner they provide u more . Also both are at peak of their game 

[bowl_out]

8 hours ago, sandeep said:

And Sundar sound have been in the squad of 15, in case Ash/Jadeja are playing and get concussed. 

 

Wondering why they even picked a 15.. what purpose does it solve? Couldn't they just pick a XI among all players that are touring based on the conditions?

[bowl_out]

8 hours ago, zen said:

 

As I said, assuming the conditions to be cloudy/rainy, 4 pacers to be able to constantly attack with the ball to reduce NZ to a low total, offsetting any advantage of having a relatively better batsman (who is not a specialist batsman) at #8 

 

If the conditions are like what Gavaskar says hot and dry, Ind can go with both these spinners. In that case, the discussion would be more about picking the best in form pacers as Ind has quality options 

 

If the conditions are overcast and favoring the fast bowlers, why do you need 4 pacers to run through the opposition? Wouldn't just 3 suffice given that it is conditions suiting the fast bowlers? If that is the case, then play an extra batsman

 

Four quicks don't make any sense for me.

It is either three quicks + Ashwin + Jadeja (this is 99% likely)

If the conditions are really overcast and you don't need two spinners, then play an extra batsman (Vihari) instead of Ashwin (1% chance of this happening IMO)

[sandeep]

25 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

Wondering why they even picked a 15.. what purpose does it solve? Couldn't they just pick a XI among all players that are touring based on the conditions?

Probably required by ICC rules - concussion sub can only be from the squad of 15...

[zen]

47 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

If the conditions are overcast and favoring the fast bowlers, why do you need 4 pacers to run through the opposition? Wouldn't just 3 suffice given that it is conditions suiting the fast bowlers? If that is the case, then play an extra batsman

 

Four quicks don't make any sense for me.

It is either three quicks + Ashwin + Jadeja (this is 99% likely)

If the conditions are really overcast and you don't need two spinners, then play an extra batsman (Vihari) instead of Ashwin (1% chance of this happening IMO)

Ideally, team selection should depend  upon the quality of players you currently have and not on set formulas (unless picking an ATG team which provides many options). 
 

One of Ind’s key strengths is its pace bowling and in pace bowler friendly conditions, I would prefer to strengthen the strength esp. considering the quality of pacers (don’t forget teams like WI played 4 pacers too). The quality of the 4th pacer and his ability to influence the game with the ball is better than what Ind’s batting options can at #7-8. 
 

I have mentioned reasons in multiple posts on this thread including the post you quoted. In short, to keep a sustained attack to restrict NZ at a low total, off setting the need for a theoretical batting depth (it is not like a VVS is not being considered). 
 

Also don’t forget that in the last 6-7 tests in Eng and NZ that Ind played in, its only win came through the performance of the 4th pacer. The chances of 1 out of 4 pacers having a great game is higher than 1 out of 3 if conditions favor such bowlers. 

If it is a hot and dry like Gavaskar said, I am ok if Ind plays 2 spinners as they can play a relatively more active role too. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by zen