Adi_91 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, zen said: First of all, sorry to hear about the loss of your family and friends due to Covid. That was a pathetic phase. I like your optimism. As I said, once people like me were like that too. But the roots itself are not strong as the population can lack discipline and accountability, and be too concerned about convenience and self interest. Having visited many countries, you can say many things about it based on a) cleanliness, and b) sports (will delve into when I am in mood for it). A country that cannot even keep itself clean (again Ganga), where law and order takes a back seat, and where bribe is a way of life, a lot needs to change before optimism kicks in. We can talk about our difficult past. Difficulties are not unique to India. Many countries have been destroyed but rebuilt themselves. Israel is at war almost every day. I am not interested in India being a great economic and/or military superpower (it means zilch if the population continues to destroy the country). If that happens, great. If not, no big deal. My vision for India is that of a country with disciplined and accountable population, a clean and green environment, an adequate healthcare and education system, great law and order condition, and more importantly where animals have their mini country. I do not want the land to be overrun by human beings. We do not need to ape west and its standards. Our standards can be derived from our ancient culture. Generally as a country develops, its population tend to come to terms with the dangers of their day to day actions to environment, society and indeed the planet. So in my view, economic growth is a must have for people to learn these impacts. Sooner India grows towards the targets set, better sense will prevail. I am an example. My family was not a rich one to begin with. But, my parents were hard working. My dad did his MBA despite not coming from a rich family and we got exposed to the good side of all the education. I leant environment protection from my parents and self and it came with access to quality education as my parents were financially doing well. When every Indian gets access to quality education, it is bound to have an impact on his mind and his actions. Higher the incomes, higher the spending towards the economy and faster growth. I strongly believe with such a population, we have an opportunity to mould the children of our future through quality education. Education that meets the needs of the times we live in is the only need. I already have formed a core group in India of like minded friends who are aware of the environment and spreading the word in India. I am sure there are many like me who are doing their bit protecting the environment across multiple cities. 2/3rd of Indian population is below the age of 35. This is a massive opportunity to drive sustainable economic growth with such a population. Sure, things won't change overnight, but the change has begun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 17, 2021 Author Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Adi_91 said: Generally as a country develops, its population tend to come to terms with the dangers of their day to day actions to environment, society and indeed the planet. So in my view, economic growth is a must have for people to learn these impacts. Sooner India grows towards the targets set, better sense will prevail. I am an example. My family was not a rich one to begin with. But, my parents were hard working. My dad did his MBA despite not coming from a rich family and we got exposed to the good side of all the education. I leant environment protection from my parents and self and it came with access to quality education as my parents were financially doing well. When every Indian gets access to quality education, it is bound to have an impact on his mind and his actions. Higher the incomes, higher the spending towards the economy and faster growth. I strongly believe with such a population, we have an opportunity to mould the children of our future through quality education. Education that meets the needs of the times we live in is the only need. I already have formed a core group in India of like minded friends who are aware of the environment and spreading the word in India. I am sure there are many like me who are doing their bit protecting the environment across multiple cities. 2/3rd of Indian population is below the age of 35. This is a massive opportunity to drive sustainable economic growth with such a population. Sure, things won't change overnight, but the change has begun. Some good points. But note that being responsible, disciplined, and accountable does not require huge $$$. Keeping the country clean needs an attitude change (and world class waste management systems where applicable from the government). Maintaining good law and order needs law abiding citizens (and police and judicial forces where applicable). Caring for the environment does not need large investment but a drive to keep planet first. But in India, the first point to evade doing the right thing is usually we lack $$$ and resources. When I was in India, I saw a guy littering the street. I asked him to pick up his litter. He replied that "Sir, I am a taxpayer." Implying that because he pays taxes, he has the right to throw litter everywhere as he supports government wages or whatever. I picked up that litter, disposed it and remarked that I am a taxpayer too (in hindsight, should have put him in the bin too). And he was shocked. We do not need to be Elon Musk or Bill Gates before starting to make a change. We do not need to be Switzerland to be clean and green. Bhutan is clean and green ... We do not need people to assemble to say that "let's beat Pak in cricket today." but to say that "let's beat garbage today." The issue with India is a population that will not hesitate to waste someone $100 to save its $1. How can a country go anywhere? There will usually be excuses to not do things ... We say we faced x difficulty in the past, y challenges at that time, but is a surprise that trouble finds the region? Edited November 17, 2021 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 6 hours ago, Singh bling said: For majority of Indians children especially boys are still best old age insurance . No what propaganda people do. Unless people will see that Government can take care of old people , provide them security and medical care they will continue to have kids. No, that's just ur mindset that expects govt handouts every step of the way. The avg bozo is literally 'screwing around' without any care for the future. It's not like he's calculating, I got 1 boy and 2 girls so 2 more boys each earning x and giving me a quarter of that will cover our old age expenses given the rate of inflation. I should thus start working on the next one. raki05 and coffee_rules 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi_91 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 45 minutes ago, zen said: Some good points. But note that being responsible, disciplined, and accountable does not require huge $$$. Keeping the country clean just needs an attitude change (and world class waste management systems where applicable for the government). Maintaining good law and order needs law abiding citizens (and police and judicial forces where applicable). Caring for the environment does not need large investment. But in India, the first point to evade doing the right thing is usually we lack $$$ and resources. When I was in India, I saw a guy littering the street. I asked him to pick up his garbage. He replied that "I am a taxpayer." Implying that because he pays taxes, he has the right to throw litter everywhere. I picked up that litter and disposed it and remarked that I am a taxpayer too. We do not need to be Elon Musk or Bill Gates before starting to make a change. We do not need to be Switzerland to be clean and green. Bhutan is clean and green ... We do not need people to assemble to say that "let's beat Pak in cricket today." but to say that "let's beat garbage today." The issue with India is a population that will not hesitate to waste someone $100 to save its $1. How can a country with such people go anywhere? There will usually be excuses to not do things. All it takes is a societal change towards this. Sure, there are people who are idiots and there are enough idiots here too who drive crazy and endanger others, for example, but attitudes take time to change. We have grown up normalizing this behavior, but we certainly have an opportunity to teach our children to be better citizens. This is not dependent on government, so at least we can try and educate young minds to apply their education towards environment and its protection. The change won't happen tomorrow, but the seeds of change can be sowed today. As I said, Indian people are kind at heart and it can be inculcated in their mind that kindness extends to the environment around us, for our habitat and animals. Also, there are states that are better governed in India as well. I have stayed in the south of India where law and order is generally very good and we have some very well maintained outdoor spaces. Surely, not like the US, but still well maintained and a very disciplined resident community across the street. This may not apply to the whole of India, but there are always good people around. zen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) Problem 1: Over population. Huge burden upon the natural resources. Wars on water is coming in the near future. Smog and other environmental disasters. Proposed Solution 1: Control the population China is not the only model, but we also have the Bangladesh model and Iranian Model and the Western model of controlling the population. Problem 2: Increase in the aged population: The proposed solution 1 (i.e. controlling the population) leads to problem No. 2 (i.e. increase in the aged population). Today China and Iran are trying their best to increase their young population, as there are not enough young people to take care of the aging population. Proposed Solution 2: Euthanasia Euthanasia is the practice of intentionally ending life to relieve pain and suffering. There are millions of old people, who have been suffering from pain for decades, and they don't have any wish to live longer, but still they are compelled to stay alive and suffer. As of November 2021, euthanasia is legal only in Belgium, Canada, Colombia, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Spain and several states of Australia (Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia). Not only from the point of view of saving resources on the old sick population, but from the point of view of Humanity only too, Euthanasia should be allowed and practiced in whole world. This makes Euthanasia not only the source of saving the old population from their sufferings, but also it is the only possible solution to save the planet earth and it's resources from destruction. PS: If people have the option of Euthanasia at the older age, then they will also not going to wish for multiple children as their insurance of old age. In the western countries, it is government which provides the insurance that people will get all the care in their old age too. As a result, western people are not interested in having a lot of children as their insurance of old age. Edited November 17, 2021 by Alam_dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 9 hours ago, zen said: Why would India not worry about the value it creates not only for itself but also others? That is not unique to India. Even Africa has a huge market potential. Many countries that are underdeveloped have a good market potential as things can be developed there. Yes different markets have different potential but not all countries are in same place. India's scale, demography, democracy makes it uniquely exciting for the world. The country has recorded the highest FDI flow for last several months and we haven't scratched the surface yet. Adi_91, raki05 and coffee_rules 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh bling Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 4 hours ago, Clarke said: No, that's just ur mindset that expects govt handouts every step of the way. The avg bozo is literally 'screwing around' without any care for the future. It's not like he's calculating, I got 1 boy and 2 girls so 2 more boys each earning x and giving me a quarter of that will cover our old age expenses given the rate of inflation. I should thus start working on the next one. Not fully true if man is careless then woman can adopt some measure to prevent pregnancy. You should ask some elders how many kids they had. My grandmother told me her chachi had 14 kids . You don't see many numbers these days. Without any prevention and screwing around will result in 7-10 kids. Alam_dar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, Singh bling said: Not fully true if man is careless then woman can adopt some measure to prevent pregnancy. You should ask some elders how many kids they had. My grandmother told me her chachi had 14 kids . You don't see many numbers these days. Without any prevention and screwing around will result in 7-10 kids. That's literally from pre-independence, babies by the dozen. Why is current gen having a high fertility rate in bigger states and not able to stabilize population despite decades of efforts towards awareness ? Its mostly ignorance and callous disregard for the future of the child, country & planet. To think that govt helping seniors will take care of fertility rate is absurd, they'll just expect govt to take care of pre-retirement requirements as well including needs of children and young adults, which goes well with your mindset for every problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh bling Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Clarke said: That's literally from pre-independence, babies by the dozen. Why is current gen having a high fertility rate in bigger states and not able to stabilize population despite decades of efforts towards awareness ? Its mostly ignorance and callous disregard for the future of the child, country & planet. To think that govt helping seniors will take care of fertility rate is absurd, they'll just expect govt to take care of pre-retirement requirements as well including needs of children and young adults, which goes well with your mindset for every problem. Bihar is the only state having tfr of 3.2 . All other states have below 3. Many even have below 2 .UP has 2.7 MP 2.9 So your assumption that average man is screwing around and producing 4-5 kids is just a myth. https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/fertility-rate-down-in-most-states-nfhs-5-finds-74624 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 57 minutes ago, Singh bling said: Bihar is the only state having tfr of 3.2 . All other states have below 3. Many even have below 2 .UP has 2.7 MP 2.9 So your assumption that average man is screwing around and producing 4-5 kids is just a myth. https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/fertility-rate-down-in-most-states-nfhs-5-finds-74624 When I say avg bozo, I don't mean everyone is a bozo. The one who has so many kids esp without financial stability is one, and we got tens of millions of them. The principal disagreement was on the suggested correlation between social security & overall fertility, which is still a tangential discussion, although the original topic seems random enough to warrant going in haphazard directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 15 hours ago, Singh bling said: For majority of Indians children especially boys are still best old age insurance . No what propaganda people do. Unless people will see that Government can take care of old people , provide them security and medical care they will continue to have kids. So, you are saying that if Govt provides medical care and insurance, children wont be required as much. Well I am glad that atleast someone believes we plan so much before having kids. raki05 and Clarke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 Hum do hamare do was a nice strategy to keep no of kids and families smaller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 17, 2021 Author Share Posted November 17, 2021 9 hours ago, ravishingravi said: Yes different markets have different potential but not all countries are in same place. India's scale, demography, democracy makes it uniquely exciting for the world. The country has recorded the highest FDI flow for last several months and we haven't scratched the surface yet. I have pre-COVID 2019 #s, which are not too encouraging so I hope that there is some positive move 2019 FDI as a % of GDP (net inflows) India 1.8, which is similar to that for developed countries such as Italy 1.6, Germany 1.7, and lower than developed countries such as France 2.1, Australia 2.9, Sweden 3.2, Norway 4.2, Portugal 4.3, Israel 4.4, Switzerland 5.1, Finland 5.8 Asian Dragons - HK 16.1, Singapore 32.2 Asia Pacific - Vietnam 6.2, Cambodia 13.3 South America - Argentina 1.5, Brazil 3.7, Columbia 4.3, Chile 4.5 Mediterranean and East Europe - Montenegro 7.5, Serbia 8.3, Estonia 9.9, Malta 28, Hungary 56.4, Cyprus 104 Africa is of course is next in the line ... In terms of FDI as a % of GDP, a relatively underdeveloped region that underperformed was the Subcontinent - BD 0.6, Pak 0.8, Sri Lanka 0.9, Ind 1.8 ... Beat Pak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 16 hours ago, zen said: As I wrote earlier: " ... govt (not matter which party) needs to step in to limit the number or children and/or have a system where ppl need to pay to have more than one child, while creating a trust to help in education, healthcare, etc. for all children. One of the most sad sight is to see a sparsely dressed dirty kid sitting near a pile of garbage, suggesting a grim future (when machines/robots are expected to take over many jobs). A criminal act by the parents." UP/Yogiji govt proposed it to make it mandatory to have less kids to contest electios or govt jobs https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/up-population-draft-bill-those-with-over-2-kids-cant-contest-local-polls-apply-for-govt-jobs-281090 Not much came out of it as elections are near, it is still in draft. All population control bills are opposed by opposition and eminent intellectuals as targetting minorities, as they seem to generally have more number of kids. Nothing gets done in election politics of India. You are too naive to think that. For the highlighted. There are spectfic govt schemes. knowledge of it, distribution and to advertise it to reach poor is not therte . For people coming from west on Poverty tours, it is very easy to get a kid in rags in garbage. Not that we don't see homeless people in the west/ There are some logistical issues in India already. 16 hours ago, zen said: I see that there is a Population Control Bill proposed. If I am not wrong, having a small family is linked to patriotism. Controlling population is only one part of the equation. Having a responsible and accountable population is another ... One of the best ways for India to drive growth (and for a select few to get rich) is through infrastructure development (it would be playing catch-up), but this also would create its own set of problems (which needs an essay). Such things can be carried out in many developing countries, therefore not unique and mostly playing catch up,. India is already a burden due to its population explosion. The topic is on what value India offers - its unique culture, the "promised" land for the native religions, and its landforms, and flora and fauna. People come and go. Rich can become poor. Poor can become rich. Successes become failures. Failures become successes. But what should remains is a responsible and accountable culture with ancient roots (1000s of years of history). With the problems that India has, along with the desire to ape the west and an irresponsible and unaccountable population with more tools at its disposal, a lot of things can be at stake where one could potentially see a different India in future (again an essay can be written here). 2021 is zero and the reminder - "Let's not sacrifice these for anything." Read the OP again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 17, 2021 Author Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: For the highlighted. There are spectfic govt schemes. knowledge of it, distribution and to advertise it to reach poor is not therte . For people coming from west on Poverty tours, it is very easy to get a kid in rags in garbage. Not that we don't see homeless people in the west/ There are some logistical issues in India already. That is not apples to apples ... Approx. 2/3rd of people in India are said to live in poverty (on less than $2/day) ... This segment tends to get exploited. The deeper point was that this segment produces more offsprings that will get exploited too (most of those who grow up having access to no resources, hungry, sitting near a pile of garbage, are likely to have a grim future) by the remaining 1/3rd Edited November 17, 2021 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoCricaddict Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 20 hours ago, ravishingravi said: I am struggling to grasp the thread of this question. It could be a case of mindset at this point which can happen to most of us at different points. But I see fairly loose handpicked moments to arrive at the question. But if I were to ask this question to myself and give a generic answer. The answer would be that I don’t care. India shouldn’t worry how it’s valued. The market potential is so incredible that world us headed here. It’s should find it’s voice and define peace, plurality, spirituality, development and all other western archetypes and frameworks. Revivalism that we are witnessing with advent of technology and civilizational leader offers incredible opportunity to find more about ourselves. I am super excited for what awaits us with some underlying risks which we need to manage. We are at a very tentative stage of our evolution. Another 5 years and leadership choices during this period will be critical to see the trajectory it takes. Great post. The bold-faced sentence is on-the-money! Stop worrying about how the world perceives India. Who cares if the rest of the world embraces/appreciates India's history, heritage, culture, cuisine etc.? The real question is: Will they buy India's products because there is quality and value, thereby fueling economic upliftment in India? For culture, spirituality, social justice etc to thrive, a nation must have a healthy, well-fed, economically-developed, empowered population. To that end, I would add three related areas of focus for the future: 1. Continued commitment to science innovation, especially in the life-sciences, is a must. Covaxin is a launching pad that will help India expand from being a manufacturing-under-licence hub to being an innovator and developer of modern medicine. 2. Agricultural biotechnology for yield improvement - more food on less land with less labour. You cannot feed people with primitive methods of growing food/feed. India has the brightest minds in ag research. Use them to help farmers. There is nothing "Western" about ag innovations - even Indian plants have genes and Indian soil has nutrients. Use them. The neighbour to the north is already doing it on a large scale and seeing results. 3. Free people from the farm. Farming should be a choice, not an enslavement. Less than 5 % of the population should be tied to farming (again, as a choice), freeing others to become educated in whatever they choose. As it stands now, 30% of India is tied - including women and children - are tied to the farm, keeping them from pursuing other talents. Mariyam, ravishingravi and coffee_rules 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said: Great post. The bold-faced sentence is on-the-money! Stop worrying about how the world perceives India. Who cares if the rest of the world embraces/appreciates India's history, heritage, culture, cuisine etc.? The real question is: Will they buy India's products because there is quality and value, thereby fueling economic upliftment in India? For culture, spirituality, social justice etc to thrive, a nation must have a healthy, well-fed, economically-developed, empowered population. To that end, I would add three related areas of focus for the future: 1. Continued commitment to science innovation, especially in the life-sciences, is a must. Covaxin is a launching pad that will help India expand from being a manufacturing-under-licence hub to being an innovator and developer of modern medicine. 2. Agricultural biotechnology for yield improvement - more food on less land with less labour. You cannot feed people with primitive methods of growing food/feed. India has the brightest minds in ag research. Use them to help farmers. There is nothing "Western" about ag innovations - even Indian plants have genes and Indian soil has nutrients. Use them. The neighbour to the north is already doing it on a large scale and seeing results. 3. Free people from the farm. Farming should be a choice, not an enslavement. Less than 5 % of the population should be tied to farming (again, as a choice), freeing others to become educated in whatever they choose. As it stands now, 30% of India is tied - including women and children - are tied to the farm, keeping them from pursuing other talents. And Welcome back, Guru! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 17, 2021 Author Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said: Stop worrying about how the world perceives India. As I have mentioned somewhere, this is an introspection thread where Ind asks what value it offers Quote The real question is: Will they buy India's products because there is quality and value, thereby fueling economic upliftment in India? Then we are worrying about the world and probably evaluating “economic upliftment” per western standards, continuing to play the catch-up (?) Quote For culture, spirituality, social justice etc to thrive, a nation must have a healthy, well-fed, economically-developed, empowered population. And till that happens (while aping some western standard), we go down the drain trapped in a vicious cycle Edited November 17, 2021 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoCricaddict Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, zen said: As I have mentioned somewhere, this is an introspection thread where Ind asks what value it offers Then we are worrying about the world and probably evaluating “economic upliftment” per western standards, continuing to play the catch-up (?) And till that happens (while aping some western standard), we go down the drain trapped in a vicious cycle Economic upliftment is not just $$$. It is women's empowerment, decreased child and infant mortality, increased life expectancy, increased access to education and talent-maximization, increased food production, increased food-buying power where you are not spending half-to-three-quarters of your income on food, and a permanent roof over the head for all people. Improving metrics in these areas (especially less infant mortality, more freedom from the farm and higher education levels) will automatically lead to people having fewer children and slowing population growth). If all this means aping the West, so be it. It is easy to have the romantic notion "it's not all about money" when you are wallowing in money. Which, by global standards, most ICFers are. Edited November 17, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict raki05 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoCricaddict Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: And Welcome back, Guru! Thank you, Anna. Been a crazy busy semester! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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