Ravi Ashwin Interview discussion thread

[ShoonyaSifar]

For some reason, dropped catches are  used as an excuse only for Ashwin as if catches get dropped only off him.

 

From an article on cricketmonthly some years back, I distinctly remember a stat. Harbhajan Singh had 99 catches dropped off his bowling. Not once that stat is used to say Bhajji would have had a much better record but for missed catches 

[sandeep]

27 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Sorry but when his bowling average in SENA is 38 (even Jadeja has a better average), it doesn't really matter how cerebral he is or all the tall claims he makes about working out batsmen. Yes he got Smith out thrice in the last Australia series but he is yet to have a match winning bowling performance in SENA. Not 3 and 4 wicket hauls but 5-fers in an inning and 10-er in a match.

 

Anyone else making such claims after such a poor record will and should be mocked, not respected for being a thinking bowler. He's an ATG but should acknowledge his below par SENA performances, which clearly isn't the case.

 

 

That's not an accurate reflection of the value Ashwin the bowler offers in 2021, or has offered over the last 2-3 years.  The caveat being when he's fully fit.  

 

Also, spinners away numbers get disproportionately inflated or deflated especially away from home, depending on how strong the team unit is.  This applies to all bowlers, but especially spinners outside of Asia, because they do most of their wicket-taking in the 3rd and 4th innings of a test match, and for that, the team has to be strong enough to take the game that deep, or preferably provide a situation where the team has the upper hand.  

 

Both ends of this spectrum are flawed - Ashwin is neither a case of a bonafide ATG being victimized without cause - nor a sub-par bowler deservedly benched.  The factual reality is a lot more complex than that.  And there are real, honest arguments to be made from each perspective.

 

We should be man enough to accept and entertain nuance and context - even when, especially when the facts don't completely line up with our personal opinion and confirmation bias. 

 

99% of the "discussions" I see here, are just about dueling confirmation biases.  Its sad really.  More energy is invested in "proving myself right", or "proving that guy wrong" than actually discussing the genuine parts of the situation.  We are blessed to be fans of such a beautiful complex sport, at a time in history, when "our" team is filled with some amazing players and individual stories.  And yet, the fanbase discussions and fixations are all about mediocrity - I'm specifically talking about fans here, not the players.

[vvvslaxman]

If you get ignored 4 tests in a row against this ENgland side when he is in form, obviously your stat won't improve.  We can keep whining about how he didn't take "fifer" in SENA.  Besides in the last  few years the role of our spinners is limited to giving relief to seamers due to nature of the pitches. It is hard to steal wickets from Bumrah/Shami and others. Only way you can do is running through tail like Wasim Akram. May be he can work on that.

[sensible-indian]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

If you get ignored 4 tests in a row against this ENgland side when he is in form, obviously your stat won't improve.  We can keep whining about how he didn't take "fifer" in SENA.  Besides in the last  few years the role of our spinners is limited to giving relief to seamers due to nature of the pitches. It is hard to steal wickets from Bumrah/Shami and others. Only way you can do is running through tail like Wasim Akram. May be he can work on that.

Whats his SENA average apart from the twin tours to Aus in 2011 and 2015?

 

And he was pretty decent in 2015.

 

Poor guy must have taken 5fers to when our pacers (except Ishant) were going at 3.5 to 4 rpo in that series.

 

And he almost did in the last innings of that series.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by sensible-indian

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Whats his SENA average apart from the twin tours to Aus in 2011 and 2015?

 

And he was pretty decent in 2015.

 

Poor guy must have taken 5fers to when our pacers (except Ishant) were going at 3.5 to 4 rpo in that series.

 

And he almost did in the last innings of that series.

 

 

 

This is not the 2000s where Zaheer khan would get worn out and other support bowlers would bowl crap and be useless, spinners can eke out some fifer wickets.  We have 4 seamers always going to be sharing the wickets.  FOr instance Bumrah and Ashwin have played 10 SENA tests together look at their record

 

In the same tests

 

Ashwin 10 tests 36 wickets 28.47 average  

Bumrah 10 tests 36 wickets 30.00 average

 

 

 

[Vk1]

Brilliant interview. He can be a great coach in future with an ably assisted group of specialist coaches. 

However, nothing about Kohli in the entire interview ( he talked about Shastri ) and no question on not getting picked in that Eng tour.. some serious iseues going on

[sensible-indian]

I just finished the interview.

 

My God...what an amazing piece of interview.

 

Honest, earnest answers with a lot of humility and frankness.

 

No wonder he has done well with some good luck.

Edited December 21, 2021 by sensible-indian

[vvvslaxman]

41 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

That's not an accurate reflection of the value Ashwin the bowler offers in 2021, or has offered over the last 2-3 years.  The caveat being when he's fully fit.  

 

Also, spinners away numbers get disproportionately inflated or deflated especially away from home, depending on how strong the team unit is.  This applies to all bowlers, but especially spinners outside of Asia, because they do most of their wicket-taking in the 3rd and 4th innings of a test match, and for that, the team has to be strong enough to take the game that deep, or preferably provide a situation where the team has the upper hand.  

 

Both ends of this spectrum are flawed - Ashwin is neither a case of a bonafide ATG being victimized without cause - nor a sub-par bowler deservedly benched.  The factual reality is a lot more complex than that.  And there are real, honest arguments to be made from each perspective.

 

We should be man enough to accept and entertain nuance and context - even when, especially when the facts don't completely line up with our personal opinion and confirmation bias. 

 

99% of the "discussions" I see here, are just about dueling confirmation biases.  Its sad really.  More energy is invested in "proving myself right", or "proving that guy wrong" than actually discussing the genuine parts of the situation.  We are blessed to be fans of such a beautiful complex sport, at a time in history, when "our" team is filled with some amazing players and individual stories.  And yet, the fanbase discussions and fixations are all about mediocrity - I'm specifically talking about fans here, not the players.

 

 

Main topic is about vice captaincy. We digressed.  Bowlers have been doing the job. Batsmen are the problems. That is where losers get repeated chances, They are made vice captains. Look at Rohit/KL Rahul. What have they done to earn vice captaincy. KL Rahul completed one series after his come back. Rohit finally ensured his place is safe. He doesn't have a lot of years left in his career.  At 33 Tendulkar was already a legend. Rohit is trying to start his first meaningful run at this age.  Vice captaincy normally is not a position nobody would give a hoot. But with captains missing out of the blue these days, we need a solid back up. Not someone like KL Rahul who even with great record would not make a good captain. Very lackluster.   Atleast Pant should have been given if not Ashwin.  What if KL Rahul puts together a string of single digits. What now then? Rohit sharma will come back. He is one injury away from permanently saying bye bye to Test cricket.  Ashwin himself has left at the best only 2 years left despite the dramatic turnaround in recent times especially in the white ball cricket. But would have been a great fill-in. Other option is Bumrah. 

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

Brilliant interview. He can be a great coach in future with an ably assisted group of specialist coaches. 

However, nothing about Kohli in the entire interview ( he talked about Shastri ) and no question on not getting picked in that Eng tour.. some serious iseues going on

 

Great interview, and Ash is a brilliant bowler.  I think he'd make a horrible coach though. Or even a captain.  Its not his cup of tea.  

 

 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

no question on not getting picked in that Eng tour.. some serious iseues going on

Dial back to previous England tour - After getting Cook out with a beauty, next test Indian team desperately needed something from him to stay alive in the series, and unfortunately Ash pulled up with a serious injury on Day 2 I think it was - He was in terrible pain and I remember him trying to bowl through it.  But his body simply couldn't go through the same motion and his bowling didn't have anywhere near the usual 'bite'.  Injury was not his fault, but ultimately the team was in a battle, and he couldn't deliver.  I think Kohli lost faith in him after that.  Add to that, Jadeja's batting numbers are all-world, and his away bowling is very close to Ash's output.  

No need to fabricate speculate 'issues' or conspiracy when an obvious high quality alternative was preferred.  

 

I mean, I would love to see Ash always be part of the XI no matter what - I love watching him bowl - he is at the height of his powers now, and bowls so beautifully.  But there are legit cases where you have to pick one out of Ash or Jaddu, and you can honestly go either way without being "biased" against one of them.

 

Edit:  And I say this as someone who's no Kohli defender - in fact I have been consistently critical of Virat's selection patterns and leadership. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by sandeep

[Vijy]

45 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

That's not an accurate reflection of the value Ashwin the bowler offers in 2021, or has offered over the last 2-3 years.  The caveat being when he's fully fit.  

 

Also, spinners away numbers get disproportionately inflated or deflated especially away from home, depending on how strong the team unit is.  This applies to all bowlers, but especially spinners outside of Asia, because they do most of their wicket-taking in the 3rd and 4th innings of a test match, and for that, the team has to be strong enough to take the game that deep, or preferably provide a situation where the team has the upper hand.  

 

Both ends of this spectrum are flawed - Ashwin is neither a case of a bonafide ATG being victimized without cause - nor a sub-par bowler deservedly benched.  The factual reality is a lot more complex than that.  And there are real, honest arguments to be made from each perspective.

 

We should be man enough to accept and entertain nuance and context - even when, especially when the facts don't completely line up with our personal opinion and confirmation bias. 

 

99% of the "discussions" I see here, are just about dueling confirmation biases.  Its sad really.  More energy is invested in "proving myself right", or "proving that guy wrong" than actually discussing the genuine parts of the situation.  We are blessed to be fans of such a beautiful complex sport, at a time in history, when "our" team is filled with some amazing players and individual stories.  And yet, the fanbase discussions and fixations are all about mediocrity - I'm specifically talking about fans here, not the players.

one reason why confirmation biases are more prevalent in cricket, IMO, is that players evolve more than in some other sports. I am not saying, of course, that people don't change in other sports, but cricket has a lot of variables - ranging from pitches, bats, and balls on the one hand to the mental and physical states of cricketers on the other - which is why we tend to see peaks and troughs so often. Ashwin is a classic example: to my mind, he definitely did underwhelm in his first few years in SENA. However, he has worked hard on those issues and has been a much improved player over the past 2 years. It's easy to look at his overall career record in SENA and label him a sub-par player, but that ignores the dynamical aspect of it, to wit, what has unfolded in the past 2 years.

 

The same is true for Kohli. The fact is that he was the world's best all-format player for several years, but one should also recognise that there have been alarming signs of decline in the past 1.5 to 2 yrs. Both with Ashwin and Kohli, the story is not yet done and we must keep watching the narrative unfold: perhaps Ashwin will continue his surge, or perhaps his injuries will drive him toward decline. Being stripped of LOI captaincy, perhaps this will drive Kohli to greater heights, or perhaps his slowing reflexes (mental and physical) imply that his decline will only accelerate. Cricket is an uncertain game, we live in uncertain times, so we must embrace that uncertainty... it can be exciting if looked at in the right spirit.

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Great interview, and Ash is a brilliant bowler.  I think he'd make a horrible coach though. Or even a captain.  Its not his cup of tea.  

 

 

he could probably be susceptible to over-analysis, which can be just as much of an issue as under-analysis. on the other hand, I would like to see him involved in some capacity vis-a-vis India's future spin reserves because the latter is looking rather bare at the moment.

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he could probably be susceptible to over-analysis, which can be just as much of an issue as under-analysis. on the other hand, I would like to see him involved in some capacity vis-a-vis India's future spin reserves because the latter is looking rather bare at the moment.

 

 

Yes. Jadeja/Axar they just fire it in regardless of who bats. Yes there is no real set up. so to speak.  But you have to be very accurate for long period. Kuldeep/Ashwin are skill based bowlers. They may go for runs. But they are likely to create more opportunities. At the end of the day when you are down to picking who is better, you back the skillful bowlers. But unfortunately it is not straightforward with this current Indian unit. Batting completely relies on lower order bailing us out. That makes the batting ability of bowler (especially spinner) a vital factor.  Not like Ashwin is a terrible batsman. Lyon is even worse batsman than Ashwin. He is a regular because their seamers like Cummins/Starc can bat. 

[sandeep]

12 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he could probably be susceptible to over-analysis, which can be just as much of an issue as under-analysis. on the other hand, I would like to see him involved in some capacity vis-a-vis India's future spin reserves because the latter is looking rather bare at the moment.

Jayant Yadav has spent time with Ash in Chennai.  That speaks volumes about the character of both of these guys.

[sensible-indian]

43 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

This is not the 2000s where Zaheer khan would get worn out and other support bowlers would bowl crap and be useless, spinners can eke out some fifer wickets.  We have 4 seamers always going to be sharing the wickets.  FOr instance Bumrah and Ashwin have played 10 SENA tests together look at their record

 

In the same tests

 

Ashwin 10 tests 36 wickets 28.47 average  

Bumrah 10 tests 36 wickets 30.00 average

 

 

 

Wow lol.

 

I will put on some more stats here:

 

Performance of bowlers in 2014-15 Aus series (in games involving Ash)

 

Most wickets (our pacers were horrible this tour - run leaking machines except Ishant).

 

Slightly lesser average than Lyon (lol)

 

Way worse SR (due to Ash having to do the donkeys work due to pacer quality)

 

This was the TOUR when I knew he will rise up and do great things.

 

People saw the 48 average but they didn't see the CONTEXT behind it.

 

Aus 2018-19 tour:

 

We know what he did.

 

2nd innings he took 3 with injury.

 

Aus 2020-21 tour (games involving Ash)

 

 

lol.

 

Name one modern era spinner in world cricket with this level of performance in Aus (not named Lyon).

 

To put it in perspective, PRIME Swann averaged 39 (SR of 87) in 2010 Ashes series in Aus bowling with in form pacers and runs on the board. Eng won that series.

 

All said and done, I believe Ashwin has failed in 2 innings in his career. 

 

Joberg 2013 (defo his fault)

Centurion 2018 (even here there was an finger issue)

 

With that being said, if you want greatness, you need deliverables.

 

Injuries are unfortunate but greatness comes from performance.

 

In that aspect, Ashwin still has some way to go.

 

But looking at the entire picture, a fit Ashwin is a damn good spinner in SENA from 2015.

 

Especially since 2016.

Edited December 21, 2021 by sensible-indian

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

adeja/Axar they just fire it in regardless of who bats. Yes there is no real set up. so to speak.

This betrays a singular lack of understanding the bowling of both these guys.  Jaddu is one of the smartest bowlers around in test cricket.  Very underrated. 

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

He is a regular because their seamers like Cummins/Starc can bat. 

And there's nobody in Aus squad that's remotely close to him in ability.  India on the other hand has Jaddu, Axar, etc.

[sandeep]

16 minutes ago, Vijy said:

one reason why confirmation biases are more prevalent in cricket, IMO, is that players evolve more than in some other sports. I am not saying, of course, that people don't change in other sports, but cricket has a lot of variables - ranging from pitches, bats, and balls on the one hand to the mental and physical states of cricketers on the other - which is why we tend to see peaks and troughs so often. Ashwin is a classic example: to my mind, he definitely did underwhelm in his first few years in SENA. However, he has worked hard on those issues and has been a much improved player over the past 2 years. It's easy to look at his overall career record in SENA and label him a sub-par player, but that ignores the dynamical aspect of it, to wit, what has unfolded in the past 2 years.

 

Accurate.

 

That's why we have a lot of guys who "make up their mind" about player x or y, and then stick to that perception for years and years, even though the player in question has evolved multiple times.  

[sandeep]

25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

Main topic is about vice captaincy. We digressed.  Bowlers have been doing the job. Batsmen are the problems. That is where losers get repeated chances, They are made vice captains. Look at Rohit/KL Rahul. What have they done to earn vice captaincy. KL Rahul completed one series after his come back. Rohit finally ensured his place is safe. He doesn't have a lot of years left in his career.  At 33 Tendulkar was already a legend. Rohit is trying to start his first meaningful run at this age.  Vice captaincy normally is not a position nobody would give a hoot. But with captains missing out of the blue these days, we need a solid back up. Not someone like KL Rahul who even with great record would not make a good captain. Very lackluster.   Atleast Pant should have been given if not Ashwin.  What if KL Rahul puts together a string of single digits. What now then? Rohit sharma will come back. He is one injury away from permanently saying bye bye to Test cricket.  Ashwin himself has left at the best only 2 years left despite the dramatic turnaround in recent times especially in the white ball cricket. But would have been a great fill-in. Other option is Bumrah. 

 

100% agree that Ash or Boom should have been VC.  

[sensible-indian]

Ashwin not being VC, as unfortunate as it is, is understandable.

 

If its a green mamba, will we play Ash?

 

KL became captain by elimination and not selection.

 

Temporary VC.