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Ravi Ashwin Interview discussion thread

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21 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

His argument is entirely based on numbers not the actually how well they bowl. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

It is much easier to score a 500 runs in a series than 25 wickets in a series you realize that ? Second of all it is much much harder to take a fifer with current seam-oriented Indian bowling unit than scoring 500 runs in the 1990s and 2000s. Ridiculous comparison

 

Kuldeep has a 5-er, Jadeja has a 5-er but Ashwin can't take a 5-er in the same seam oriented bowling unit despite having easily worked out all batsmen?

 

In cricket history

Batsmen scoring 500+ runs in a series : 244 instances

Bowlers taking 25+ wickets in a series - 221 instances

 

Since Ashwin's debut in Nov 2011:

Batsmen scoring 500+ runs in a series : 25 instances

Bowlers taking 25+ wickets in a series - 21 instances

 

Nearly the same probability of a batsman scoring 500 runs or taking 25 wickets in a series.

 

Like I said come up with better arguments. I know I am wasting my time but till the time you keep cing up with ridiculous arguments, I'll keep countering them.

 

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30 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

 

 

Kuldeep has a 5-er, Jadeja has a 5-er but Ashwin can't take a 5-er in the same seam oriented bowling unit despite having easily worked out all batsmen?

 

In cricket history

Batsmen scoring 500+ runs in a series : 244 instances

Bowlers taking 25+ wickets in a series - 221 instances

 

Since Ashwin's debut in Nov 2011:

Batsmen scoring 500+ runs in a series : 25 instances

Bowlers taking 25+ wickets in a series - 21 instances

 

Nearly the same probability of a batsman scoring 500 runs or taking 25 wickets in a series.

 

May be you should also see how those bowlers are used in death? So they took one fifer

 

 

History is a long time where we had 8 ball over, 6 test series. If you are talking about 10 year period despite it is an overwhelmingly bowler friendly era it is still harder. Especially if you are part of the side with many wicket takers, 25 wicket in a series is harder. Back in 2000 , 33 players have made 500 runs in a series. only 22 took 25 wicket haul. That is when Murali was running riot singlehandedly. Still it was not easier. Come up with better argument.

 

Jadeja has taken one fifer,  KUldeep got one fifer. That makes them better than Ashwin? I suppose since Root has not got a 100 in Australia, Rahane must be better than Root. 

 

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8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

History is a long time where we had 8 ball over, 6 test series. If you are talking about 10 year period despite it is an overwhelmingly bowler friendly era it is still harder. Especially if you are part of the side with many wicket takers, 25 wicket in a series is harder. Back in 2000 , 33 players have made 500 runs in a series. only 22 took 25 wicket haul. That is when Murali was running riot singlehandedly. Still it was not easier. Come up with better argument.

 

Jadeja has taken one fifer,  KUldeep got one fifer. That makes them better than Ashwin? I suppose since Root has not got a 100 in Australia, Rahane must be better than Root. 

 

Dude, neither of Jadeja, Kuldeep or Root have nade bombastic statements like Ashwin did of having worked out batsman (for Root it will be working out bowlers). When someone is so arrogant but cannot back it up with a performance, it has to be called out.

 

The 5-ers by Kuldeep or Jadeja was to show how hollow your argument of 'seam oriented attack' is.

 

On Root vs Rahane in Australia, Root without a 100 vs Rahane with 2 100s IS interior to Rahane in Australia. Doesn't make Root a bad player.

 

You have moved from one silly argument to another (dropped catches, seam oriented attacks, Jadeja being poor in England, stats of Bumrah and Ashwin, dragging in Sachin, Root and Rahane, Murali, earlier Warne (in a different thread)) without making much sense. All this to show Ashwin is very good in SENA which is not the case especially in light of his bombastic claims today.

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The 5fer argument is way overblown.

 

Ash missed his first 5fer in Sydney 2015. If we had some runs to play with, he would have had a 8fer (he was on a roll that innings). He took 4 out of 5 wickets to fall.

 

Next is Centurion. Technically should have got a 7fer....or 8fer. Ended up with 4fer due to catch drops.

 

Next is Edgbaston or some England test. Missed by 1 wicket.

 

Next is Adelaide 2020. Missed by 1 wicket.

 

All these are 4fers.

 

Then there are many 3fers.

 

As someone pointed out, he needs to figure out a way to get some tailender wickets so he can tick this box.

 

There is a reason why average and SR is looked at (along with performance).

 

Even average and SR can be a bit deceiving for spinners.

 

Take someone like Yasir in 2015 Eng.

 

He averaged 40 and stank up 2 games...but what he did in those other 2 games changed the series. He ensured Pakistan drew a 4 match series in Eng (a very very hard feat at that time).

 

Then there's Anderson (an amazing bowler and ATG for me) who averaged 14 in UAE 2015 but had ZERO impact in that series (even in recent Ashes tours to Aus he looks good stat wise but has no impact).

 

Cricket is a LOT more than raw stats.

 

100s and 5fers are even more unrealiable than raw stats.

 

Laxman's 96 in Durban 2010 is way better than MOST (if not almost all) SENA 200s.

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Jaddu took his 5fer on a turner with horrible pacers bowling super long spells (obviously not his fault that others sucked).

 

SA scored 500 that innings.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-2013-14-648627/south-africa-vs-india-2nd-test-648667/full-scorecard

 

Kuldeep took it in first innings in Sydney which was great (he succeeded in getting 2 tailenders out after getting 3 main bats out...which Ash couldn't).

 

This whole debate is like saying Ashwin has a 100 in a rank turner but Babar/Root/Kane don't....why so?

Edited by sensible-indian
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20 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Dude, neither of Jadeja, Kuldeep or Root have nade bombastic statements like Ashwin did of having worked out batsman (for Root it will be working out bowlers). When someone is so arrogant but cannot back it up with a performance, it has to be called out.

 

The 5-ers by Kuldeep or Jadeja was to show how hollow your argument of 'seam oriented attack' is.

 

On Root vs Rahane in Australia, Root without a 100 vs Rahane with 2 100s IS interior to Rahane in Australia. Doesn't make Root a bad player.

 

You have moved from one silly argument to another (dropped catches, seam oriented attacks, Jadeja being poor in England, stats of Bumrah and Ashwin, dragging in Sachin, Root and Rahane, Murali, earlier Warne (in a different thread)) without making much sense. All this to show Ashwin is very good in SENA which is not the case especially in light of his bombastic claims today.

 

How can he back up when he was made to sit out despite being the highest wicket taker in the world test championship. You keep ignoring how he was not selected when he was at his best form that too against the England. He missed 50% of SENA games. How can he correct if he is not a regular. 

You don't drop players after one or two bad tests.  IN order to make you understand how dumb this fifer theory is we have to use all kind of equivalent dumb theories.

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16 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Jaddu took his 5fer on a turner with horrible pacers bowling super long spells (obviously not his fault that others sucked).

 

SA scored 500 that innings.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-2013-14-648627/south-africa-vs-india-2nd-test-648667/full-scorecard

 

Kuldeep took it in first innings in Sydney which was great (he succeeded in getting 2 tailenders out after getting 3 main bats out...which Ash couldn't).

 

This whole debate is like saying Ashwin has a 100 in a rank turner but Babar/Root/Kane don't....why so?

 

Ashwin was the only one who made 37 out of 135 when India chased 204 in SA.  In recent times he has made more runs than Rahane. Rahane played every single test and got to be the vice captain. I guess everybody else deserves to be VC except Ashwin as per him. He is an extremely biased poster against Ashwin. YOu won't get a sensible argument. I call when they suck. Infact not overly thrilled when he was picked for limited overs again. Credit to him he did well. Still think India should stick with wristies if possible. Unlike him i don't have this  extreme hate against a player.

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2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

That makes them better than Ashwin?

If he's so smart then why couldn't he get Curran out cheaply in 2018, he had what 6 chances? That BS about dropped chances don't work here, because Curran got dropped more off pacers! Getting tailenders out quickly is important, really important - do you remember the stats I quoted on absolute flatbeds in India? Jadeja has consistently outbawled him with his "darts" at least 5 times. Jadeja has consistently shown why he should be talked to in the same breath, as a bowler, as Ashwin even if he is less "talented" - what the * are you going to do with that overgrown grey matter when you can't win matches for India :whack3:

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11 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

If he's so smart then why couldn't he get Curran out cheaply in 2018, he had what 6 chances? That BS about dropped chances don't work here, because Curran got dropped more off pacers! Getting tailenders out quickly is important, really important - do you remember the stats I quoted on absolute flatbeds in India? Jadeja has consistently outbawled him with his "darts" at least 5 times. Jadeja has consistently shown why he should be talked to in the same breath, as a bowler, as Ashwin even if he is less "talented" - what the * are you going to do with that overgrown grey matter when you can't win matches for India :whack3:

 

AFirst of all Curran is more a capable batsman than some of our middle order. Second of all  one innings example is enough to put down the greatest of the greatest bowlers.  Consistently "out bowled" in what sense?  He would be looking at more man of the series/man of the awards. 

 

This flat wicket "outbowling" of Jaddu is way over sold.  Some of the series in 2014 he was utterly toothless. Strike rates were like 175, 140, 104.  In the England series in 2021 his strike rate was 123. He too rely on a bit of assistance or pressure created by fast bowlers. Not exactly the guy you would toss the new ball to. He comes on mostly very late ( in some of the tests he was introduced after 40 plus overs.) with a few wickets already fallen.  Stats hide a lot than it reveals. It comes down how captains use you. 

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12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

This flat wicket "outbowling" of Jaddu is way over sold. 

You're joking right? You didn't see Jadeja's bowling in Kanpur vs NZ, Delhi vs SL, Ranchi vs Oz, Chennai vs Eng & there's one more I'm missing :cantstop:

 

You're telling me Ashwin bowled better than Jadeja on those tracks? Either you were just looking at the scorecard or you clearly haven't watched him bowl on such tracks! Yes, outside India he hasn't done as well as some of us expected, but neither has over smart Ashwin - you can make all the excuses in the world, but results speaks for themselves!

12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

He would be looking at more man of the series/man of the awards. 

Like on those tracks vs Eng this year, which Jadeja missed? Do you honestly think he'd do worse than Ashwin?

 

Now tell me who's the better bowler :lollypop:

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India 
Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa 
Home or away home venue 
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2010 and 31 Dec 2020 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100 
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)
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Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
RA Jadeja 2012-2019 24 47 1200.5 341 2657 128 7/48 10/154 20.75 2.21 56.2 7 1  
R Ashwin 2012-2019 29 57 1549.1 357 4182 183 7/59 13/140 22.85 2.69 50.7 19 6  

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India 
Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa 
Home or away home venue 
Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100 
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)
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Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
RA Jadeja 2012-2021 25 49 1261.5 361 2754 133 7/48 10/154 20.70 2.18 56.9 7 1  
R Ashwin 2012-2021 35 69 1840.2 423 4812 229 7/59 13/140 21.01 2.61 48.2 22 6  

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India
Home or away home venue
Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)
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Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
RA Jadeja 2012-2021 34 67 1531.3 434 3404 162 7/48 10/154 21.01 2.22 56.7 7 1  
R Ashwin 2011-2021 49 95 2383.4 529 6422 300 7/59 13/140 21.40 2.69 47.6 24 6  
Edited by R!TTER
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17 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Consistently "out bowled" in what sense?

On flat tracks Jadeja >>>>Ashwin, this changes slightly or vastly overseas so I won't argue the point that he's better than Ashwin outside India, it's a wash IMO. Jadeja has much better record in SA/Oz but the sample size is really small.

 

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Stats hide a lot than it reveals.

Stats can hide some of the truth, they don't hide all of it!

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Those charts prove beyond a shadow of doubt, Ash is the better bowler. lol.

 

Look at the wickets per game difference in the chart.

 

Its staggering.

 

Chart 1 - 5.33 of Jaddu vs 6.3 of Ash

 

Chart 2 - 5.32 vs 6.54

 

Chart 3 - 4.76 vs 6.12

 

Similar average.

 

Way better SR.

 

Way better wickets per game.

 

Jaddu > Ashwin in dead wickets.

 

There was a 2 year period where Jaddu was superior to Ash (especially during his injury years 2017-19) but apart from that...no contest overall.

 

The very charts you posted says it all.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

AFirst of all Curran is more a capable batsman than some of our middle order. Second of all  one innings example is enough to put down the greatest of the greatest bowlers.  Consistently "out bowled" in what sense?  He would be looking at more man of the series/man of the awards. 

 

This flat wicket "outbowling" of Jaddu is way over sold.  Some of the series in 2014 he was utterly toothless. Strike rates were like 175, 140, 104.  In the England series in 2021 his strike rate was 123. He too rely on a bit of assistance or pressure created by fast bowlers. Not exactly the guy you would toss the new ball to. He comes on mostly very late ( in some of the tests he was introduced after 40 plus overs.) with a few wickets already fallen.  Stats hide a lot than it reveals. It comes down how captains use you. 

Prime Jaddu (bowler) would have done much better in Eng 2021.

 

Anyways, he didn't get to play on those deader than dead tracks in Aus in 2011 and 2015 with an awful pace attack.

 

He played in NZ and Eng in 2014 and he struggled. Someone can post the stats in those 2 series.

 

Ashwin barely got to bowl in Eng in 2014 and he did decently in the only innings where he got a decent spell. He was ok in those days.

 

The cherry picking in this thread is getting hilarious.

Edited by sensible-indian
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3 hours ago, R!TTER said:

You're joking right? You didn't see Jadeja's bowling in Kanpur vs NZ, Delhi vs SL, Ranchi vs Oz, Chennai vs Eng & there's one more I'm missing :cantstop:

 

You're telling me Ashwin bowled better than Jadeja on those tracks? Either you were just looking at the scorecard or you clearly haven't watched him bowl on such tracks! Yes, outside India he hasn't done as well as some of us expected, but neither has over smart Ashwin - you can make all the excuses in the world, but results speaks for themselves!

Like on those tracks vs Eng this year, which Jadeja missed? Do you honestly think he'd do worse than Ashwin?

 

Now tell me who's the better bowler :lollypop:

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India 
Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa 
Home or away home venue 
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2010 and 31 Dec 2020 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100 
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)
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Cleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
RA Jadeja 2012-2019 24 47 1200.5 341 2657 128 7/48 10/154 20.75 2.21 56.2 7 1  
R Ashwin 2012-2019 29 57 1549.1 357 4182 183 7/59 13/140 22.85 2.69 50.7 19 6  

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India 
Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa 
Home or away home venue 
Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100 
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 2 of 2   First Previous Next Last  Return to query menu
Cleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
RA Jadeja 2012-2021 25 49 1261.5 361 2754 133 7/48 10/154 20.70 2.18 56.9 7 1  
R Ashwin 2012-2021 35 69 1840.2 423 4812 229 7/59 13/140 21.01 2.61 48.2 22 6  

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India
Home or away home venue
Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 2 of 2    First Previous Next Last  Return to query menu
Cleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
RA Jadeja 2012-2021 34 67 1531.3 434 3404 162 7/48 10/154 21.01 2.22 56.7 7 1  
R Ashwin 2011-2021 49 95 2383.4 529 6422 300 7/59 13/140 21.40 2.69 47.6 24 6  

 

May be you look at strike rate as well?  Every table you see he has a better strike rate. Jaddu is a steady wicket taker. Not going to give you like 2 or 3 wickets on the trot as often as Ashwin or even Axar for that matter.  Jaddu is a very very effective spinner. You are putting him on a pedestal like some kind of a wizard on flat tracks. You ignore things like when he is brought on, Most of the time after damage was inflicted by some other bowlers.  If you really think he is as good as you portray him to be, he should be getting 400 wickets. Let us see if he gets there. He is only 2 years younger than Ashwin.

 

1 - 7fer

2 - 6fer

6 - 5fer ( 3 of them conceding well over 100 runs)

10 - 4fers

 

1 - 10fer

 

Around the same 57 tests 

 

Ashwin

 

2 - 7fers

4 - 6fers

9 - 5fers 

6 - 4fers

 

 4-10fers

 

This was before Ashwin struck form after injury.

 

Right now he has

 

5 - 7fers

10 - 6fers

15 - 5fers

19 - 4 fers 

 

7 - 10fers

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Prime Jaddu (bowler) would have done much better in Eng 2021.

 

Anyways, he didn't get to play on those deader than dead tracks in Aus in 2011 and 2015 with an awful pace attack.

 

He played in NZ and Eng in 2014 and he struggled. Someone can post the stats in those 2 series.

 

Ashwin barely got to bowl in Eng in 2014 and he did decently in the only innings where he got a decent spell. He was ok in those days.

 

The cherry picking in this thread is getting hilarious.

 

He even made this point slyly that he was being used as a defensive bowler. Dhoni clearly did that. His field sets were all meant for curtailing runs.  

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3 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Those charts prove beyond a shadow of doubt, Ash is the better bowler. lol.

 

Look at the wickets per game difference in the chart.

 

Its staggering.

 

Chart 1 - 5.33 of Jaddu vs 6.3 of Ash

 

Chart 2 - 5.32 vs 6.54

 

Chart 3 - 4.76 vs 6.12

 

Similar average.

 

Way better SR.

 

Way better wickets per game.

 

Jaddu > Ashwin in dead wickets.

 

There was a 2 year period where Jaddu was superior to Ash (especially during his injury years 2017-19) but apart from that...no contest overall.

 

The very charts you posted says it all.

 

 

 

 

Type of wickets do have a contrast

 

61% of Ashwin's wickets are top 6 @27.175

56% of Jaddu's wickets are top 6@31.74

 

 

 

Not to mention Ashwin's batting. Has 5 centuries to boot. Match saving efforts. Greatest spinner against lefties. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, sandeep said:

That's a twisted interpretation. Based on one comment that Ash took personally?  

 

I'm not out here claiming Shastri was some sort of Coach extraordinaire.  But people are far too eager to diminish Shastri's positives and inflate his negatives.  

 

 

I think cricket has two aspects. First, it’s a team sport, and so the players have to work together. But then it is also about individuals, where they compete hard to muscle people out and there is hurt among those who do get cast aside. In those battles, it’s every man for himself. Ashwin does a great job in that interview in providing a window to that. Note, he provides the example of what happens when Kuldeep is preferred over him. But today, Kuldeep’s international career is in the doldrums. I doubt if anybody including the coach or any of the team members are really worried about how Kuldeep is doing. They are focused on their own survival as they prepare for their next match. So Ashwin is not the only one to experience the rough side of the game. It’s that he does a nice job in describing how that feels in the interview. Also neat, the way he talks about game preparation, overcoming injuries etc. Very bright, articulate person. And he will be remembered as one of India’s greats when he is done with playing the game.

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5 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Those charts prove beyond a shadow of doubt, Ash is the better bowler. lol.

 

Look at the wickets per game difference in the chart.

 

Its staggering.

 

Chart 1 - 5.33 of Jaddu vs 6.3 of Ash

 

Chart 2 - 5.32 vs 6.54

 

Chart 3 - 4.76 vs 6.12

 

Similar average.

 

Way better SR.

 

Way better wickets per game.

 

Jaddu > Ashwin in dead wickets.

 

There was a 2 year period where Jaddu was superior to Ash (especially during his injury years 2017-19) but apart from that...no contest overall.

 

The very charts you posted says it all.

 

 

Then why were you against Kohli picking Jadeja in Eng.?
Ashwin and Jadeja are both equally good away from home especially if we consider their batting too.
We should stick with our four pacers unit in SENA as it is bringing success, we saw what happened in WTC when we went with two spinners.
 

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Then when you go into Australia, Steve Smith, what are your plans?
I made him my obsession for about six months, not just two weeks or three weeks. Just footage, just watching different matches. The most recent series they played [before India toured Australia in 2020-21] was New Zealand. I went through every single day's play. I would go on to my app and check - how many runs was [Marnus] Labuschagne batting on when Will Somerville came on to bowl? Which ball did he hit over cow corner?


I think there is a bit of premeditation when it comes to Aussie batsmen. I think in this whole "playing the Aussie way", they are looking for aggressive options. Obviously, Aussie pitches are very true. So you can get away without getting to the pitch of the ball sometimes, which can be very disconcerting [for the bowler]. As a spinner, you need to be very precise in Australia. Every run you give must be on your own terms.

 

So whenever Marnus Labuschagne steps out, he hits the ball over cow corner for an offspinner, or he hits it over mid-off. It's very rarely through long-on. And he doesn't have a flat sweep, he has a lap sweep, like a paddle. All these shots have a trigger. And it's very fine. If you don't know or if you've not seen enough footage, you cannot pick these things up.


And with Steve Smith, his batting is very momentum-driven. Most of his batting comes from his hands, so my whole idea was to disturb his hands through the series. He's got certain hand-movement patterns. You have to pick them and be able to bowl in a way that disturbs his hand pattern. So I bowled with different load-ups, different speeds, different run-ups and all that. I realised I kind of got to him.

 

In the case of, say, Steven Smith, he is someone who thinks. Like after the first Test [where Smith was caught on the crease and edged to slip], the second instance, he came searching for the ball on the front foot. That was a reaction to the first [dismissal]. So if you know someone who is searching for excellence, they will try and find a solution. So you can be prepared for that solution.

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