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Bumrah vs. Cummins in Tests


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42 minutes ago, Nikola said:

I feel on completely flat pitch bumrah is much much ahead of cummins. Imagine bumrah in these conditions he would have gotten 4-5 wickets till now with reverse swing, yorkers and pace he has.

 

Shami is even more deadly. Umesh is another guy who does well on abrasive surfaces.

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Bumrah is overrated even in tests.

 

He bullied a weak Australia batting lineup in 2018.

In 2020 when they had a strong batting lineup, he averaged 30. Both Cummins and Hazlewood averaged 20.

 

In South Africa, he was the 6th best bowler by average. 3 Sa bowlers and both Shami and Thakur were better than him by every metric (average and wickets).

 

He has barely ever played on dead tracks. The only one time he did (vs england Chennai test) he was outshone by cloud bully Anderson! So much for being an all conditions bowler!

 

In Nz, he did nothing.

In wtc final, he failed spectacularly when the conditions were very favourable for any great bowler worth his salt to atleast put the opposition under some pressure. Jamieson looked on another planet compared to him. 

 

Now he is being overrated based on a 5fer vs a poor lanka and that too with the crazy pink sg ball.

 

Not saying he is a fraud but people claiming he is somehow more all conditions bowler than Cummins, Hazlewood, Rabada and even Southee don't really have a leg to stand on.

 

 

Edited by Honeybadger
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1 minute ago, Honeybadger said:

Bumrah is overrated even in tests.

 

He bullied a weak Australia batting lineup in 2018.

In 2020 when they had a strong batting lineup, he averaged 30. Both Cummins and Hazlewood averaged 20.

In South Africa, he was the 6th best bowler by average. 3 Sa bowlers and both Shami and Thakur were better than him by every metric (average and wickets).

He has barely ever played on dead tracks. The only time he did (vs england Chennai test) he was outshone by cloud bully Anderson! So much for being an all conditions bowler!

In Nz, he did nothing.

He obviously didn't show up in wtc final when the conditions were very favourable for any great bowler worth his salt to atleast put the opposition under some pressure.

 

Now he is being overrated based on a 5fer vs a poor lanka and that too with the crazy pink sg ball.

 

Not saying he is a fraud but people claiming he is somehow more all conditions bowler than Cummins, Hazlewood, Rabada and even Southee don't really have a leg to stand on.

 

 

Absolute rubbish. First of all the batting lineup wasn’t weak in 2018. It was made to look weak by bumrah and co. The marshes etc were smacking England in the ashes a year prior. Khwaja had come off centuries vs pak in uae and prior centuries against sa. In fact even one series later head etc were bashing the Sri Lankan bowlers and all these guys made merry this ashes as well as the current pak series.

 

his 2018 performance especially mcg was amazing.

 

in 2020 he only averaged 29.xx cause he didn’t get to play the last match. He was great in Adelaide and Melbourne. Sydney pitch was so flat that Cummins and co couldn’t take out a couple of injured batsmen.

 

being the 6th best bowler does not negate his quality. Also sa bowled to a weaker lineup with purane etc.


mcg 2018 was a dead track as was lords and oval 2021. The reason they didn’t look like dead tracks was cause of bumrahs quality. I mean in both lords and oval bumrah was hitting it well with the bat, that’s how flat they were.

 

and again sl is not as poor as they were made to look. They won 2-0 in wi which even pak couldn’t and England haven’t been able to.

 

you are using circular logic by showing that all of bumrahs achievements are invalidated cause the opposition wasn’t good. In fact they were made to look bad because of bumrah.

 

in nz he averages 31 and was great in the second match. That is his worst average in a country. Everywhere else he averages 25 or below. 
 

cummins rabada etc have multiple countries where they average 30+ and even 50+ for a few countries.

 

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34 minutes ago, Honeybadger said:

Bumrah is overrated even in tests.

 

He bullied a weak Australia batting lineup in 2018.

In 2020 when they had a strong batting lineup, he averaged 30. Both Cummins and Hazlewood averaged 20.

 

In South Africa, he was the 6th best bowler by average. 3 Sa bowlers and both Shami and Thakur were better than him by every metric (average and wickets).


let’s apply this to cummins.

 

He bullied a weak India batting lineup in 2020 filled with aging players and debutants/younglings.

 

In 2018 when they had a string batting lineup with no 1 batsman kohli and a prime pujara, he averages 28. Bumrah averages 17 and ishant averages 23.

 

He has barely ever played on dead tracks. The few times he did he was hit around by a young pant and jadeja and debutant mayank. Was hit around by debutant shardul sundar and gill at the gabba. Couldn’t defend 500 over 2 days in Pakistan. Couldn’t take the wicket of injured vihari and ashwin on a 5th day wicket. Let jack leach hang around with stokes to lose the thing most precious to the aussies - an away ashes (way more prestigious than some etc which didn’t even exist a year ago). Was hit around by jadeja and Saha at dharamsala where he was outbowled by umesh.

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9 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

Absolute rubbish. First of all the batting lineup wasn’t weak in 2018. It was made to look weak by bumrah and co. The marshes etc were smacking England in the ashes a year prior. Khwaja had come off centuries vs pak in uae and prior centuries against sa. In fact even one series later head etc were bashing the Sri Lankan bowlers and all these guys made merry this ashes as well as the current pak series.

 

his 2018 performance especially mcg was amazing.

 

in 2020 he only averaged 29.xx cause he didn’t get to play the last match. He was great in Adelaide and Melbourne. Sydney pitch was so flat that Cummins and co couldn’t take out a couple of injured batsmen.

 

being the 6th best bowler does not negate his quality. Also sa bowled to a weaker lineup with purane etc.


mcg 2018 was a dead track as was lords and oval 2021. The reason they didn’t look like dead tracks was cause of bumrahs quality. I mean in both lords and oval bumrah was hitting it well with the bat, that’s how flat they were.

 

and again sl is not as poor as they were made to look. They won 2-0 in wi which even pak couldn’t and England haven’t been able to.

 

you are using circular logic by showing that all of bumrahs achievements are invalidated cause the opposition wasn’t good. In fact they were made to look bad because of bumrah.

 

in nz he averages 31 and was great in the second match. That is his worst average in a country. Everywhere else he averages 25 or below. 
 

cummins rabada etc have multiple countries where they average 30+ and even 50+ for a few countries.

 

I've overlooked your convenient dodging of the hard parts. Anyway..

 

2018 Australia lineup was a poor test lineup without question. Their best batsman was Khwaja, who is probably a rahane level player at best and has till now never been able to nail a place in their team. There were some really really horrible players like harris, finch, marsh handscombe etc . Marsh is a below average test player with 34 average so there's nothing to discuss here.

 

In 2020  the fact is he averaged close to 30. What may or may not have happened isn't a proper argument. 

Sure he did put in a decent shift for his team.

Even Saini and natrajan did a job for the team but that can't be called great.

 

Coming to your flat track argument. That is the point!! Bumrah gets a reputation as someone who  is  less conditions dependent based on absolutely nothing. Like I said even Anderson outbowled him the only time he played on a real dead track.

 

Rabada has poor numbers in some asian venues  because... he has actually played there. Bumrah has played only 1 match in Asia vs a good team (and was outshone by clouderson!!) 

 

No mate, home 5fer vs lanka isn't a great achievement. Even Naseem Shah has one!

 

Cummins averages 47 in the ongoing series so far but these are absolute pancakes and far tougher than any pitch bumrah has ever bowled on. 

 

There's absolutely no ground to the argument that Bumrah is less conditions dependent than all 4 of the names I mentioned. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Honeybadger said:

I've overlooked your convenient dodging of the hard parts. Anyway..

 

2018 Australia lineup was a poor test lineup without question. Their best batsman was Khwaja, who is probably a rahane level player at best and has till now never been able to nail a place in their team. There were some really really horrible players like harris, finch, marsh handscombe etc . Marsh is a below average test player with 34 average so there's nothing to discuss here.

 

In 2020  the fact is he averaged close to 30. What may or may not have happened isn't a proper argument. 

Sure he did put in a decent shift for his team.

Even Saini and natrajan did a job for the team but that can't be called great.

 

Coming to your flat track argument. That is the point!! Bumrah gets a reputation as someone who  is  less conditions dependent based on absolutely nothing. Like I said even Anderson outbowled him the only time he played on a real dead track.

 

Rabada has poor numbers in some asian venues  because... he has actually played there. Bumrah has played only 1 match in Asia vs a good team (and was outshone by clouderson!!) 

 

No mate, home 5fer vs lanka isn't a great achievement. Even Naseem Shah has one!

 

Cummins averages 47 in the ongoing series so far but these are absolute pancakes and far tougher than any pitch bumrah has ever bowled on. 

 

There's absolutely no ground to the argument that Bumrah is less conditions dependent than all 4 of the names I mentioned. 

 

 

 

Saini and Nataranjan averaged way over 30 though.

 

Bumrah was absolutely instrumental at the mcg 2021 win.

 

And you are again dodging the flat track response I gave - bumrah has played on some real flat tracks - mcg 2018, lords 2021, oval 2021. It’s bumrahs performance that makes them not look like flat tracks.


lords and oval were so flat that bumrah a 4-5 averaging batsman was hitting boundaries. Mcg was slow and flat as hell too. Commentators were cursing it and comparing it to the 2017 Ashes pitch. In fact discourse was very similar to the current Karachi test for the first 2 days (ofc in mcg 2018 india did it twice).

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, deathmonger said:


let’s apply this to cummins.

 

He bullied a weak India batting lineup in 2020 filled with aging players and debutants/younglings.

 

In 2018 when they had a string batting lineup with no 1 batsman kohli and a prime pujara, he averages 28. Bumrah averages 17 and ishant averages 23.

 

He has barely ever played on dead tracks. The few times he did he was hit around by a young pant and jadeja and debutant mayank. Was hit around by debutant shardul sundar and gill at the gabba. Couldn’t defend 500 over 2 days in Pakistan. Couldn’t take the wicket of injured vihari and ashwin on a 5th day wicket. Let jack leach hang around with stokes to lose the thing most precious to the aussies - an away ashes (way more prestigious than some etc which didn’t even exist a year ago). Was hit around by jadeja and Saha at dharamsala where he was outbowled by umesh.

 

Lol wat? He was easily the best bowler of the Series along with Hazlewood and  averaged 20. 

Indian batting in Australian conditions is not weak.

In India, he averages 30 in a 2 match career which is respectable considering the opposition and the conditions. Bumrah has only played 1 game against a good team in these conditions and was outbowled by Anderson.

Bumrah has never played on the kind of pancakes Cummins is playing atm so it's a moot point.

 

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1 minute ago, Honeybadger said:

 

Lol wat? He was easily the best bowler of the Series along with Hazlewood and  averaged 20. 

Indian batting in Australian conditions is not weak.

In India, he averages 30 in a 2 match career which is respectable considering the opposition and the conditions. Bumrah has only played 1 game against a good team in these conditions and was outbowled by Anderson.

Bumrah has never played on the kind of pancakes Cummins is playing atm so it's a moot point.

 

The 2020 Indian batting lineup was very much weaker. 2018 had prime kohli and pujara. He averaged 20 bowling to the weaker lineup and 28 to the stronger (inverse of your bumrah logic).

 

30 in 2 matches is not respectable when you get outbowled by umesh yadav in fast bouncy conditions. 
 

bumrah has played on those pancakes (mcg 2018, oval 2021 etc). He just made them not look like pancakes. 
 

ind made 466 at the oval in the 3rd innings against Anderson Robinson woakes with guys like bumrah and umesh making merry with the bat. England were 100 for no loss. It was bumrah who broke that game with his reverse swinging spell (something even Australians did in Karachi in the 1st innings). Just because you are able to bowl on a flat pancake and make it not look like one doesn’t mean it isn’t one.

 

mcg 2018 was a low slow pitch where discourse on first 2 days was how bad the pitch was. Bumrah changes that on the 3rd day.

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4 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

Saini and Nataranjan averaged way over 30 though.

 

Bumrah was absolutely instrumental at the mcg 2021 win.

 

And you are again dodging the flat track response I gave - bumrah has played on some real flat tracks - mcg 2018, lords 2021, oval 2021. It’s bumrahs performance that makes them not look like flat tracks.


lords and oval were so flat that bumrah a 4-5 averaging batsman was hitting boundaries. Mcg was slow and flat as hell too. Commentators were cursing it and comparing it to the 2017 Ashes pitch. In fact discourse was very similar to the current Karachi test for the first 2 days (ofc in mcg 2018 india did it twice).

 

 

 

I'm not dodging your point. There's simply no merit to it. Mcg was flat? Gimme a break! How many wickets did Cummins take in that game? 

 

These grounds are not even remotely comparable to some of the thankless asian flaties. Bumrah has only 1 game on such wickets.

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1 minute ago, Honeybadger said:

I'm not dodging your point. There's simply no merit to it. Mcg was flat? Gimme a break! How many wickets did Cummins take in that game? 

 

These grounds are not even remotely comparable to some of the thankless asian flaties. Bumrah has only 1 game on such wickets.


Did you even watch that match?

 

a flatness of a pitch is an absolute. It isn’t determined by the wickets taken or runs scored. You can score lots of runs on a green wicket and collapse on a flat pitch too.

 

your assumption of mcg 2018 not being flat is by using cummins 2nd innings bowling performance.

 

It was a flat pitch. cummins took all those wickets cause india had a 300 runs lead and just wanted to accelerate. He literally took like 3 wickets caught at leg gully when india was trying to accelerate. These shots never would have been played without the 300 run lead.

 

the mcg wicket was a pure flattie bad as the 2017 one.

 

same with oval 2021 post the first 2 days.
 

they were as bad as this Karachi pitch (where it was shown by aus in their first innings).

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