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The Indian Pace Bowling Pool need more Bounce Bowlers ... We suffered in South Africa because we could not use bounce as a weapon against ther top 6 batters


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8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

 

But my point is that ... Bumrah and Shami are moving away from the bowling style that made our pace attack world class.

 

Both Bumrah and Shami used to hit the deck hard quite often ... but not doing so with the same regularity in the last few months.

Shami is pretty old to do it now regularly and Bumrah will find it hard with his short run up with passing time , won't always compensate it with his impulse stride ,he generates maximum thrust from there and his hyperextension(my take)

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8 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Shami is pretty old to do it now regularly and Bumrah will find it hard with his short run up with passing time , won't always compensate it with his impulse stride ,he generates maximum thrust from there and his hyperextension(my take)

 

 

That's my take too. And Bumrah's abdomen injury in Australia seems to have affected him more than the stress fracture of his back.

 

Which is why we need a new hit the deck pacer.

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9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

That's my take too. And Bumrah's abdomen injury in Australia seems to have affected him more than the stress fracture of his back.

 

Which is why we need a new hit the deck pacer.

We saw him as enforcer from his debut to maybe 2020 and those roles aren't defined  longterm for a bowler actually,Mitch was Australia's enforcer for just 1 season (2013/14) ,very hard to replicate it season after season

To ensure his longevity we need to bring in new guys with pace and bounce and act with patience

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5 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

we need to bring in new guys with pace and bounce and act with patience

 

Which is why these series against Weaker teams like SL etc. are very important for pacer development.

 

Say if we try Prasidh along with Ashwin, Axar, Jadeja and Siraj, we will give him time to develop while not diluting striking ability of our bowling unit. 

 

But we may waste the opportunity by playing Ishant and Umesh as the 2 pacers.

Edited by express bowling
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2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

My point was not about Shardul's lack of bounce but the reduction in the amount of bounce that Bumrah used to get.

 

Bumrah used to hit the splice of the bat more often and make the batsmen hop more often.

 

I noticed this was not happening this year, which is why this thread.

Bumrah seems to have become a bit more skiddier I feel, even at 83-84 mph he had zip in his bowling.

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Which is why these series against Weaker teams like SL etc. are very important for pacer development.

 

Say if we try Prasidh along with Ashwin, Axar, Jadeja and Siraj, we will give him time to develop while not diluting striking ability of our bowling unit. 

 

But we may waste the opportunity by playing Ishant and Umesh as the 2 pacers.

Prasidh was a reserve in the eng tour after injury to avesh, he should have been picked either in the A squad or as a net for the recent test series, it would better if prasidh gets game time in tests rather than odi's, player development doesn't seem to be on the mind of the team management or the selectors, prasidh in odis is not needed, someone like avesh, mavi or tyagi would be better suited than prasidh in odis.

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10 minutes ago, Mesky99 said:

Bumrah seems to have become a bit more skiddier I feel, even at 83-84 mph he had zip in his bowling.

 

 

Bumrah was consistently the quickest pacer from both sides in all 3 tests. Both in terms of Fastest Speeds and Average speeds.

 

He bowled very few at 83-84 mph ... was mostly in the 85 mph to 90 mph range.

 

Considering this fact, he should have hurried batters more if he had become skiddier.

 

But if has become skiddier then it will help him in Asia.


 

Edited by express bowling
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If Indian bowlers lacked "bounce" to pick wickets, how did they manage to bowl the same lineup cheaply in 1st test, and also in 1st innings of 2nd and 3rd test ?

 

Answer is simple. The pitches usually gets flatter and better for batting as game progresses in SA. More importantly, Indian batsmen didnt put big enough totals in 2nd innings. Also this meant, there was not much break between 1st innings and 2nd innings and not enough rest for fast bowlers. 

 

This meant they were under more pressure to defend under par totals. SA top order especially Elgar and Peterson played on their patience by playing Pujara-esque innings and then capitalized on it later. 

 

In both 2nd and 3rd test, India had a chance to bat SA out of the game by batting long thereby putting more runs on board and also keeping SA on the field longer and tiring them out but they couldnt do that. This is where the game was lost.

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With no domestic cricket going on, it is very difficult to gauge current form.

 

Otherwise, I would keep a keen eye on how Khaleel Ahmed does.

 

He is 24 now and must have got stronger.

 

With his good height and strong action, he can really hit the deck hard and get steep bounce. He is at his best when he bowls 135 k to 142 k or higher.

 

Hope he performs when domestic cricket starts.

Edited by express bowling
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On 1/17/2022 at 4:49 AM, express bowling said:

Bouncy and quick upcoming pacers ----

 

Prasidh

Tyagi

Avesh

Khaleel

Hangargekar

 

 

Skiddy and quick upcoming pacers ----

 

Umran

Nagarkoti

Mavi

 

 

We need to combine these 2 types in our bowling pool to create the best possible effect.

Yash dayal seems to have that natural bounce of good length delivers, he has improved immensely and hopefully the selectors are keeping a close eye.

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Bowlers did fine. All bouncing deliveries were easily left alone on length by Elgar and Pietersen. Or they took it on their bodies. 

It is our maharathis who were strangled down the leg so many times in the series, it was not even funny. 

And Rahane/ Mayank  would nick seam/ swing/ spin/ bounce and even a grubber!  

 

 

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On 1/16/2022 at 10:41 PM, kubrickian said:

If Indian bowlers lacked "bounce" to pick wickets, how did they manage to bowl the same lineup cheaply in 1st test, and also in 1st innings of 2nd and 3rd test ?

 

 

Because the pitch was different in the first test. Indian bowlers depend a lot on hitting the stumps these days ... and the first test pitch allowed that and we got a lot of bowleds and LBWs. While the ball was bouncing over the stumps in the 2nd and 3rd tests and if the pacers tried to bowl fuller to negate this, they got driven.

 

 

On 1/16/2022 at 10:41 PM, kubrickian said:

 

Answer is simple. The pitches usually gets flatter and better for batting as game progresses in SA. More importantly, Indian batsmen didnt put big enough totals in 2nd innings. Also this meant, there was not much break between 1st innings and 2nd innings and not enough rest for fast bowlers. 

 

This meant they were under more pressure to defend under par totals. SA top order especially Elgar and Peterson played on their patience by playing Pujara-esque innings and then capitalized on it later. 

 

In both 2nd and 3rd test, India had a chance to bat SA out of the game by batting long thereby putting more runs on board and also keeping SA on the field longer and tiring them out but they couldnt do that. This is where the game was lost.

 

 

The 2nd and 3rd test pitches offered a lot of variable bounce if the pacers hit the deck hard.

 

The SA pacers capitalized on this aspect while our pacers did not hit the deck hard enough and could not capitalize on the uneven bounce. ( Our pacers were using kiss the surface bowling style which works better in Asia and England )

 

The pitches were definitely NOT " 240 for 3 and 212 for 3 in the 4th innings " type pitches.

 

Along with batting failure there was pace bowling failure too.

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While the point about tall pacers who can extract bounce is well taken, what really made the difference was the non-performance by our 3rd pacer in the 2nd and 3rd test. Thakur was the 4th seamer and he did step up but once Siraj was injured in the 2nd innings of 2nd test, we were playing with just 3 bowlers.

 

Likewise in the 3rd Test, when Umesh was selected despite there being clear signs he has lost his edge, we defended the total with 3 bowlers. That's where the matches were lost (primary reason being the non-performing middle order and a captain who failed to keep the team focussed during critical moments of the chase).

 

SA had Mulder as their 4th bowler in the 1st test and lost it. Olivier came in and despite not being as effective as their other 3 pacers, took crucial wickets which we missed from Siraj (injured) in the 2nd test and Umesh (past it now) in the 3rd test.

 

 

Edited by ShoonyaSifar
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16 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

While the point about tall pacers who can extract bounce is well taken, what really made the difference was the non-performance by our 3rd pacer in the 2nd and 3rd test. Thakur was the 4th seamer and he did step up but once Siraj was injured in the 2nd innings of 2nd test, we were playing with just 3 bowlers.

 

Likewise in the 3rd Test, when Umesh was selected despite there being clear signs he has lost his edge, we defended the total with 3 bowlers. That's where the matches were lost (primary reason being the non-performing middle order and a captain who failed to team focussed on critical moments of the chase)

 

 

 

 

The point of a weak 3rd pacer is true. Our obsession with Ishant and Umesh ( past their best years )  have started costing us.

 

But one thing must be said, we played lots of tests outside Asia in the 2018 to 2020 period with just 3 pacers. And still bowled well as a group.

 

Bumrah, Shami and Shardul could have performed better as a group on these pitches.

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47 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Because the pitch was different in the first test. Indian bowlers depend a lot on hitting the stumps these days ... and the first test pitch allowed that and we got a lot of bowleds and LBWs. While the ball was bouncing over the stumps in the 2nd and 3rd tests and if the pacers tried to bowl fuller to negate this, they got driven.

 

 

 

 

The 2nd and 3rd test pitches offered a lot of variable bounce if the pacers hit the deck hard.

 

The SA pacers capitalized on this aspect while our pacers did not hit the deck hard enough and could not capitalize on the uneven bounce. ( Our pacers were using kiss the surface bowling style which works better in Asia and England )

 

The pitches were definitely NOT " 240 for 3 and 212 for 3 in the 4th innings " type pitches.

 

Along with batting failure there was pace bowling failure too.

No. They were flat pitches and scorecard perfectly reflected on that. In fact, we batted poorly. SA pitches usually get better to bat on as the game progresses and same thing happened. 

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1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

No. They were flat pitches and scorecard perfectly reflected on that. In fact, we batted poorly. SA pitches usually get better to bat on as the game progresses and same thing happened. 

 

 

No ... the ball was seaming and there was inconsistent bounce. The conditions were offering some swing from time to time too.  These can't be great batting conditions. 

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