The Indian Pace Bowling Pool need more Bounce Bowlers ... We suffered in South Africa because we could not use bounce as a weapon against ther top 6 batters

[express bowling]

45 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

This says it all really. Our bowlers are just too short. 

 

 

I am surprised to see Bumrah get less bounce than Umesh and even Shardul.  Shami getting less bounce than the duo is sad too.

 

Both Bumrah and Shami ... and especially Bumrah ... got a lot more bounce in the 2017 to 2020 period. Both have grossly regressed in this aspect.

 

And this is the exact point of this thread. 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Vijy, @SRT100 @rkt.india, @rollingstoned

 

This is a sad development regarding Bumrah and Shami  (  getting less bounce than even Shardul and Umesh in early 2022 )

Edited January 15, 2022 by express bowling

[rollingstoned]

It's not all about height then as Jansen got less bounce than rabada and Olivier while Thakur got more bounce than Bumrah and Shami when he is not even that sort of bowler who uses bounce to get wickets. Guess the strategy was not right then.

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

It's not all about height then as Jansen got less bounce than rabada and Olivier while Thakur got more bounce than Bumrah and Shami when he is not even that sort of bowler who uses bounce to get wickets. Guess the strategy was not right then.

 

Which is why I mentioned bounce bowlers and not the height of the bowlers in my OP.

 

The end result has to be the key.

[Vivek92]

We desperately need a left arm quick to add some variety to the attack. We went from having Zaheer, Nehra and Pathan as options a decade back to struggling to find a left arm seamer of even RP Singh's quality

[Vivek92]

Just now, Vivek92 said:

We desperately need a left arm quick to add some variety to the attack. We went from having Zaheer, Nehra and Pathan as options a decade back to struggling to find a left arm seamer of even RP Singh's quality

 

[Nikhil_cric]

2 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

It's not all about height then as Jansen got less bounce than rabada and Olivier while Thakur got more bounce than Bumrah and Shami when he is not even that sort of bowler who uses bounce to get wickets. Guess the strategy was not right then.

It's about release height and the action etc. but height is necessary most of the time. Olivier for example has an action where he puts more over the ball than behind the ball and gets the most bounce out of all the seamers. 

 

But the issue is if you dont have a certain minimum height you van never get bounce from a length no matter what action you have. This is the case with Shami. 

[rollingstoned]

4 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

It's about release height and the action etc. but height is necessary most of the time. Olivier for example has an action where he puts more over the ball than behind the ball and gets the most bounce out of all the seamers. 

 

But the issue is if you dont have a certain minimum height you van never get bounce from a length no matter what action you have. This is the case with Shami. 

Bounce and pace are more relative than absolute ie the same bowler who delivers the ball from lower can still surprise a batsman if he can get the odd ball to jump up more than it is normally expected to for the average trajectory from where it comes. 

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I am surprised to see Bumrah get less bounce than Umesh and even Shardul.  Shami getting less bounce than the duo is sad too.

 

Both Bumrah and Shami ... and especially Bumrah ... got a lot more bounce in the 2017 to 2020 period. Both have grossly regressed in this aspect.

 

And this is the exact point of this thread. 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Vijy, @SRT100 @rkt.india, @rollingstoned

 

This is a sad development regarding Bumrah and Shami  (  getting less bounce than even Shardul and Umesh in early 2022 )

great finding! and that is why we need a diverse and well-rounded attack. We also require horses-for-courses selection IMO.

 

1. Bumrah and Shami need to go back and work out what kind of bowlers they want to be: whether they are satisfied with trundling or whether they will do their best to return to 2017-20 period. Injuries will not allow for it fully and neither will age, but putting in the effort matters.

2. Need to play tall (or reasonably tall) pacers with speed and bounce: Prasidh, Avesh, Tyagi

3. For Eng/NZ, we need to identify an out-and-out swing bowler, kind of similar to how peak Bhuvi functioned. This swing bowler should only play in some conditions and should have the capacity to bowl 133-135 kph at min. I don't really see any contenders here.

4. Left-arm pacers: Sometimes having variety matters, but what matters is more is that they have the basics right. Pace, bounce, seam/swing, discipline. Yash Dayal is looking promising on this front.

5. Out-and-out pace: Here, the height does not matter, but being fast enough to hurry batters would be valuable. Umran could potentially fulfill this role.

 

In my opinion, we should say farewell to Ishant and potentially even Umesh. Shami can be persisted with for a while. Boom's decline is so sharp that even his place in long term plans is insure.

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

It's not all about height then as Jansen got less bounce than rabada and Olivier while Thakur got more bounce than Bumrah and Shami when he is not even that sort of bowler who uses bounce to get wickets. Guess the strategy was not right then.

Height does matter. It helps in getting natural bounce even if you are not trying to bounce the ball. Comparing Marco Jansen with others is nonsense because Jansen is very young and physically not strong as others, is a rookie, still very much a kid while others are seasoned veterans. Will see Jansen when ne is 25 at his peak

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I am surprised to see Bumrah get less bounce than Umesh and even Shardul.  Shami getting less bounce than the duo is sad too.

 

Both Bumrah and Shami ... and especially Bumrah ... got a lot more bounce in the 2017 to 2020 period. Both have grossly regressed in this aspect.

 

And this is the exact point of this thread. 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Vijy, @SRT100 @rkt.india, @rollingstoned

 

This is a sad development regarding Bumrah and Shami  (  getting less bounce than even Shardul and Umesh in early 2022 )

Your conclusion is questionable until we get the similar data of their previous tests.

[AKane]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I am surprised to see Bumrah get less bounce than Umesh and even Shardul.  Shami getting less bounce than the duo is sad too.

 

This is a sad development regarding Bumrah and Shami  (  getting less bounce than even Shardul and Umesh in early 2022 )

 

I think Bumrah and Shami bowled at a high level in first test..... then they got tired. The 3 days off between tests was not enough for them to recover.

 

They looked burn't out in test 2 and 2nd Inn of test 3. Maybe if they had been rotated for tests 2 and 3 we would have done better. We have plenty of bench strength in fast bowling ( I don't mean Ishant and Umesh ) to make this feasible.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by AKane

[AKane]

2 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

I think Bumrah and Shami bowled at a high level in first test..... then they got tired. The 3 days off between tests was not enough for them to recover.

 

They looked burn't out in test 2 and 2nd Inn of test 3. Maybe if they had been rotated for tests 2 and 3 we would have done better. We have plenty of bench strength in fast bowling ( I don't mean Ishant and Umesh ) to make this feasible.

 

 

I mean play Bumrah and Shami with enough rest between tests... Say Bumrah, Prasidh, Siraj, Shardul in T1 and Shami, Prasidh, Siraj, Shardul in T2   etc.

 

Esp when only 3 days between tests.

Edited January 15, 2022 by AKane

[express bowling]

48 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Your conclusion is questionable until we get the similar data of their previous tests.

 

 

You mean to say that that Shardul Thakur always got more bounce than Bumrah with his length balls. ?

 

Bumrah was always known to be a bouncy pacer till late 2020.

 

P.S -- Bounce is something that is easily visible on TV

 

 

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

You mean to say that that Shardul Thakur always got more bounce than Bumrah with his length balls. ?

 

Bumrah was always known to be a bouncy pacer till late 2020.

 

P.S -- Bounce is something that is easily visible on TV

 

 

Lot of the stuff is just perception until backed by data. Shardul's problem isn't bounce but lack of pace.

Edited January 16, 2022 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, Vijy said:

great finding! and that is why we need a diverse and well-rounded attack. We also require horses-for-courses selection IMO.

 

1. Bumrah and Shami need to go back and work out what kind of bowlers they want to be: whether they are satisfied with trundling or whether they will do their best to return to 2017-20 period. Injuries will not allow for it fully and neither will age, but putting in the effort matters.

2. Need to play tall (or reasonably tall) pacers with speed and bounce: Prasidh, Avesh, Tyagi

3. For Eng/NZ, we need to identify an out-and-out swing bowler, kind of similar to how peak Bhuvi functioned. This swing bowler should only play in some conditions and should have the capacity to bowl 133-135 kph at min. I don't really see any contenders here.

4. Left-arm pacers: Sometimes having variety matters, but what matters is more is that they have the basics right. Pace, bounce, seam/swing, discipline. Yash Dayal is looking promising on this front.

5. Out-and-out pace: Here, the height does not matter, but being fast enough to hurry batters would be valuable. Umran could potentially fulfill this role.

 

In my opinion, we should say farewell to Ishant and potentially even Umesh. Shami can be persisted with for a while. Boom's decline is so sharp that even his place in long term plans is insure.

Bumrah has just picked a fifer. How has he declined?

[Vijy]

15 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I am surprised to see Bumrah get less bounce than Umesh and even Shardul.  Shami getting less bounce than the duo is sad too.

 

Both Bumrah and Shami ... and especially Bumrah ... got a lot more bounce in the 2017 to 2020 period. Both have grossly regressed in this aspect.

 

And this is the exact point of this thread. 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Vijy, @SRT100 @rkt.india, @rollingstoned

 

This is a sad development regarding Bumrah and Shami  (  getting less bounce than even Shardul and Umesh in early 2022 )

 

12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Bumrah has just picked a fifer. How has he declined?

Like the above post indicates.

[NameGoesHere]

OP is pretty knowledgeable on pace bowling so I won’t question his post.  My contention is that we are solving the wrong problem.

 

I don’t dispute that had our bowlers more bounce we may have done better. However our pace bowling is already world class and as a pack it’s the best ever.  Making more and more improvements in different areas of pace bowling is like trying to hone an already high class razor sharp sword, or even give it more edges.  I fear that if you try to do too many things, you may break it.  Or at least lose focus.  
 

Instead I’d be happy just if we manage to reproduce this kind and class of pace attack more or less as a constant factory of pace bowlers in the years ahead. 

 

The actual problem is that our batting, middle order in particular, underperformed miserably.   Had they even done an average job  I think we would have sneaked another Test.  
 

So taken as a whole, it’s the batting that needs serious improvement.  Do that and our already world class pace attack would be good to go (as it is) in defending totals.  
 

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Lot of the stuff is just perception until backed by data. Shardul's problem isn't bounce but lack of pace.

 

My point was not about Shardul's lack of bounce but the reduction in the amount of bounce that Bumrah used to get.

 

Bumrah used to hit the splice of the bat more often and make the batsmen hop more often.

 

I noticed this was not happening this year, which is why this thread.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

 

Like the above post indicates.

 

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Bumrah has just picked a fifer. How has he declined?

 

 

Bumrah picked just 12 wickets and Shami just 14 in extremely favourable bowling conditions ( offering bounce, inconsistent bounce, consistent seam movement, swing on occasions and good pace off the pitch  )

 

...  while bowling to a batting line-up where not a single batsman averages 40+ ... deKock left after just 1 test ... they have just 5 batsmen and bowling allrounder at No.7 

 

... and in the same series Rabada picked up 20 wickets and rookie Jansen 19 wickets although their other pacers were getting wickets too.

 

Just picking one fifer for the series and then being the support cast for the rest of the series won't do for 2 pacers who are deemed to be among the top 5 in the world.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, NameGoesHere said:

OP is pretty knowledgeable on pace bowling so I won’t question his post.  My contention is that we are solving the wrong problem.

 

I don’t dispute that had our bowlers more bounce we may have done better. However our pace bowling is already world class and as a pack it’s the best ever.  Making more and more improvements in different areas of pace bowling is like trying to hone an already high class razor sharp sword, or even give it more edges.  I fear that if you try to do too many things, you may break it.  Or at least lose focus.  
 

 

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

 

But my point is that ... Bumrah and Shami are moving away from the bowling style that made our pace attack world class.

 

Both Bumrah and Shami used to hit the deck hard quite often ... but not doing so with the same regularity in the last few months.