vvvslaxman Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 1 minute ago, AKane said: yeah I think at this point the team is broken down on this tour. Besides the fact that the older players have been found out - no judgement should be rendered to newcomers as this team is now adrift. Started with Kohli/Rohit as captain then Rohit did his thing then Kohli did his things <plural> - now Rahul doing whatever he does. It is all a mess. Venky became an easy target. Everyone wanted him in when he was playing blinders in VH. Now they want him out. He did well with KKR, did well for his state. He earned his spot. Ideally all the oldies should have been rested. Link to comment
AKane Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 59 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: It is not a myth. Guys like Kapil, Sidhu, Azharuddin, Tendulkar, Ganguly were pretty good. Boss of all is Sehwag. He absolutely thrashed guys like Saqlain, Murali, Warne, Herath. Gambhir was also good against spin. But nothing out of the ordinary.... all teams have players good against spin bowlers that way. Waugh brothers and the entire Aussie team. Lara and Chanderpaul Inzi, Yousef, Younis Khan and esp Saeed Anwar vs Kumble SL had Aravinda, Jaya and Ranatunga etc So we are nothing special against spin. Link to comment
R!TTER Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 1 hour ago, ShoonyaSifar said: Because they tried new players in those T20Is, not useless seniors like we did. The biggest factor was toss, as much as I'd like to pile everything on BRat this WT20 was by far the most lopsided in favor of teams chasing especially under the lights! nevada 1 Link to comment
R!TTER Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 13 minutes ago, AKane said: Waugh brothers and the entire Aussie team. Only Steve was a good player of "spin", Junior Waugh was average at best! Definitely not the entire Aussie side that's just patently false. 16 minutes ago, AKane said: SL had Aravinda, Jaya and Ranatunga etc And y't didn;t win a single test ever, wonder why? 15 minutes ago, AKane said: esp Saeed Anwar vs Kumble He played 1 series vs us in India! 16 minutes ago, AKane said: So we are nothing special against spin. Tell that to the greatest spinner ever Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, AKane said: But nothing out of the ordinary.... all teams have players good against spin bowlers that way. Waugh brothers and the entire Aussie team. Lara and Chanderpaul Inzi, Yousef, Younis Khan and esp Saeed Anwar vs Kumble SL had Aravinda, Jaya and Ranatunga etc So we are nothing special against spin. We are comparing Indian players of the past with Indians of the current. Not with select players of that era from other countries. Can you tell where was the only country Murali and Warne didn't have good numbers. Or Herath for that matter. Murali failed in Australia much like most finger spinners. But he did well in almost all the other countries. Edited January 21, 2022 by vvvslaxman Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 If you look at spinners average against India at Test level it is the highest against India in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s too. Only in the last 3 years Pakistan has slight upper hand. We are the benchmark. Gold standard against spin bowling. There is no debate. We sure had odd slip ups much like Australian slip ups against seam bowling. Even in one dayers India has always been the best against spin. Almost all eras since 1990s spinners have done the worst against India. It is not a myth. Provable, verifiable fact. Even now we are not terrible. Only England is better than us against spin. We are only comparing our side with the great Indian side of the past. Not with other teams. rollingstoned 1 Link to comment
Sandeep99 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 Fair play to them.. they've literally thrashed our team on this tour. Link to comment
AKane Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 1 hour ago, R!TTER said: Tell that to the greatest spinner ever I always said we played Warne well. See there is this fascination with spin in India - we are masters of spin. No we are not. Other countries don't focus on it as much. For example comparing bowlers of same era in two countries one large India and one small SL Murali and Kumble approx similar times and similar careers 800 wkts vs 600. Now SLs practice against Murali and we against Kumble and co. etc Murali has 105 wkts vs us averaging 32 .61 overall with 40 wicket at 45 average in India and 65 wickets at average 24 odd in SL Kumble has 74 wkts vs SL averaging 31.20 overall with 44 wickets at 22 average in India and 30 wickets at average 44 in SL Murali 105 at 32.61 home 65 at 24.xx away 40 at 45,xx Kumble 74 at 31.20 home 44 at 22.xx away 30 at 44.xx It is very similar performance by batsmen from both teams against the premier opposing spinner. That is what I am saying. Sure India had great batsmen from 1995 to 2010 but still the advantage is not overwhelming. Unlike say WI with Sobers/Kanhai/Weekes. They literally padded average against our vaunted spinners in India and WI and maybe even Mars. Sobers 1900 odd runs vs India at 83.xx - btw Sobers had 59 wickets vs India at 25.xx bowling prolly spin. Kanhai 1600 odd runs vs India at 62.xx Weekes 1400 odd runs vs India at 106.xx (yes 106 vs Indian spinners) We have never dominated spin like the above and they played against Gupte, Mankad and co. Very good spinners. I know WI is not good now - but they were once and esp against spin. Absolutely dominating. Vijy 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 1 hour ago, AKane said: I always said we played Warne well. See there is this fascination with spin in India - we are masters of spin. No we are not. Other countries don't focus on it as much. For example comparing bowlers of same era in two countries one large India and one small SL Murali and Kumble approx similar times and similar careers 800 wkts vs 600. Now SLs practice against Murali and we against Kumble and co. etc Murali has 105 wkts vs us averaging 32 .61 overall with 40 wicket at 45 average in India and 65 wickets at average 24 odd in SL Kumble has 74 wkts vs SL averaging 31.20 overall with 44 wickets at 22 average in India and 30 wickets at average 44 in SL Murali 105 at 32.61 home 65 at 24.xx away 40 at 45,xx Kumble 74 at 31.20 home 44 at 22.xx away 30 at 44.xx It is very similar performance by batsmen from both teams against the premier opposing spinner. That is what I am saying. Sure India had great batsmen from 1995 to 2010 but still the advantage is not overwhelming. Unlike say WI with Sobers/Kanhai/Weekes. They literally padded average against our vaunted spinners in India and WI and maybe even Mars. Sobers 1900 odd runs vs India at 83.xx - btw Sobers had 59 wickets vs India at 25.xx bowling prolly spin. Kanhai 1600 odd runs vs India at 62.xx Weekes 1400 odd runs vs India at 106.xx (yes 106 vs Indian spinners) We have never dominated spin like the above and they played against Gupte, Mankad and co. Very good spinners. I know WI is not good now - but they were once and esp against spin. Absolutely dominating. :) I think you missed Sehwag then Sehwag scored 82 runs of 64 balls against Herath and 85 runs of 77 balls against Murali on the same day. In another instance He dismantled saqlain mustaq bys coring 91 runs in 80 balls against him These are all test mtaches. Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) One of the major thrashing INdia has even to spinner was Qadir who was bully against West Indies. But thrashed by India. There was this guy Bob Holland who was considered to be a sydney specialist. Picking back to back 10fer against the mighty west indies and New zealand. OZ won both test https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-australia-1984-85-61908/australia-vs-west-indies-5th-test-63387/full-scorecard Imagine beating West Indies by an innings in a Test match. His third test at the SCG came against India. That was his last Test. Just like Sehwag finished Saqlain's career, Srikkanth finished his career. He scored 22 runs in one over in a Test match https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-1985-86-62298/australia-vs-india-3rd-test-63420/full-scorecard Edited January 22, 2022 by vvvslaxman Link to comment
AKane Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 50 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: One of the major thrashing INdia has even to spinner was Qadir who was bully against West Indies. But thrashed by India. There was this guy Bob Holland who was considered to be a sydney specialist. Picking back to back 10fer against the mighty west indies and New zealand. OZ won both test https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-australia-1984-85-61908/australia-vs-west-indies-5th-test-63387/full-scorecard Imagine beating West Indies by an innings in a Test match. His third test at the SCG came against India. That was his last Test. Just like Sehwag finished Saqlain's career, Srikkanth finished his career. He scored 22 runs in one over in a Test match https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-1985-86-62298/australia-vs-india-3rd-test-63420/full-scorecard I remember Bob Holland.... the match he won against WI was in the series when Kim Hughes did his sobbing/crying after the 3rd test. WI won the first 3 tests. 4th was drawn and they lost the 5th to Holland. I found it odd that at that time a 38 year old Bob Holland did that to them. Srikkanth was terrific but Holland was also at the tail end of his cricket career. In 1985/86 he was 39 going on 40 years old. His career started at age 38 and ended at 39. Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, AKane said: I remember Bob Holland.... the match he won against WI was in the series when Kim Hughes did his sobbing/crying after the 3rd test. WI won the first 3 tests. 4th was drawn and they lost the 5th to Holland. I found it odd that at that time a 38 year old Bob Holland did that to them. Srikkanth was terrific but Holland was also at the tail end of his cricket career. In 1985/86 he was 39 going on 40 years old. His career started at age 38 and ended at 39. They had to discard him. It was an incredible assault. They had no other option. They brought in Warne who had thrashing of his life at the SCG. Ravi shastri took him to task. Link to comment
AKane Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: They had to discard him. It was an incredible assault. They had no other option. They brought in Warne who had thrashing of his life at the SCG. Ravi shastri took him to task. If you really want to see a spin thrashing - check out Zaheer Abbas in 1978 vs our "Spin Trio". After that series we abandoned spin trio/quartet crap embraced a new religion and Kapil Dev was born. Vijy 1 Link to comment
Autonomous Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 10 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: He is an over-rated bowler. Even against India his ER is 5.58. Should be more. At the same Paarl venue zimbabwe carted him for 72 runs in 10 overs We won odi series there, you need 300-330 for a win there. Link to comment
rollingstoned Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: If you look at spinners average against India at Test level it is the highest against India in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s too. Only in the last 3 years Pakistan has slight upper hand. We are the benchmark. Gold standard against spin bowling. There is no debate. We sure had odd slip ups much like Australian slip ups against seam bowling. Even in one dayers India has always been the best against spin. Almost all eras since 1990s spinners have done the worst against India. It is not a myth. Provable, verifiable fact. Even now we are not terrible. Only England is better than us against spin. We are only comparing our side with the great Indian side of the past. Not with other teams. We should have played Pakistan in a test series between 2014-2016 when Misbah, YK, Yasir were all somewhere near the peak of their powers. It would have been interesting. Link to comment
prudent_kreeda Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 12 hours ago, Majestic said: For the first time, this team looks pretty strong with their spin options. Maharaj, Shamsi and Markram. Phehlukwayo bowls spin only at a faster speed. Then you add Rabada and Nortje. I think they have a good chance in subcontinent conditions. They have an able captain too and this team has seen tough phases so I won't take them lightly going into 2023 World Cup. Please add Marco Jansen Link to comment
Lone Wolf Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) Shamsi rubbing it in lol... Good going. We need all of it & some more. Shameless TM & selectors need to brought to their knees. And big f** u to Ashwin Boobie & Collar chewwer. Pakistanis should stop moaning... Their Batsman have been run through by Dilruwan Perera William Somerville & even Ish Sodhi Mark Craig in test cricket in UAE.. In test series defeats. I can't recall a WI spinner that troubled them in Sharjah test loss in 2016 along with Holder. @AKane Indian players can't compete against this level of mastery Edited January 22, 2022 by Lone Wolf Vijy 1 Link to comment
asterix Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Never thought that would be to see THIS day when joke of a bowler mocking the Indian Team… THANK YOU IPL for the gift of useless T20 stars… Adamant 1 Link to comment
Vijy Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 20 hours ago, AKane said: I always said we played Warne well. See there is this fascination with spin in India - we are masters of spin. No we are not. Other countries don't focus on it as much. For example comparing bowlers of same era in two countries one large India and one small SL Murali and Kumble approx similar times and similar careers 800 wkts vs 600. Now SLs practice against Murali and we against Kumble and co. etc Murali has 105 wkts vs us averaging 32 .61 overall with 40 wicket at 45 average in India and 65 wickets at average 24 odd in SL Kumble has 74 wkts vs SL averaging 31.20 overall with 44 wickets at 22 average in India and 30 wickets at average 44 in SL Murali 105 at 32.61 home 65 at 24.xx away 40 at 45,xx Kumble 74 at 31.20 home 44 at 22.xx away 30 at 44.xx It is very similar performance by batsmen from both teams against the premier opposing spinner. That is what I am saying. Sure India had great batsmen from 1995 to 2010 but still the advantage is not overwhelming. Unlike say WI with Sobers/Kanhai/Weekes. They literally padded average against our vaunted spinners in India and WI and maybe even Mars. Sobers 1900 odd runs vs India at 83.xx - btw Sobers had 59 wickets vs India at 25.xx bowling prolly spin. Kanhai 1600 odd runs vs India at 62.xx Weekes 1400 odd runs vs India at 106.xx (yes 106 vs Indian spinners) We have never dominated spin like the above and they played against Gupte, Mankad and co. Very good spinners. I know WI is not good now - but they were once and esp against spin. Absolutely dominating. with hunte, butcher/nurse, 3 W's, kanhai, and sobers, that was the ATG lineup to end all ATG lineups. Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 10 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Shamsi rubbing it in lol... Good going. We need all of it & some more. Shameless TM & selectors need to brought to their knees. And big f** u to Ashwin Boobie & Collar chewwer. Pakistanis should stop moaning... Their Batsman have been run through by Dilruwan Perera William Somerville & even Ish Sodhi Mark Craig in test cricket in UAE.. In test series defeats. I can't recall a WI spinner that troubled them in Sharjah test loss in 2016 along with Holder. @AKane Indian players can't compete against this level of mastery I doubt even with 7 spinnres we could not have done anything lol Because SA was not batting like phattus against spin bowling. Markram pretty much owned the top 4 batsmen from our side lol Link to comment
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