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Tabraiz Shamsi - We outplayed them in foreign conditions

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1 minute ago, AKane said:

yeah I think at this point the team is broken down on this tour.

 

Besides the fact that the older players have been found out - no judgement should be rendered to newcomers as this team is now adrift. Started with Kohli/Rohit as captain then Rohit did his thing then Kohli did his things <plural> - now Rahul doing whatever he does. It is all a mess.

 

 

Venky became an easy target. Everyone wanted him in when he was playing blinders in VH. Now they want him out. He did well with KKR, did well for his state.  He earned his spot. Ideally all the oldies should have been rested.

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59 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

It is not a myth. Guys like Kapil, Sidhu, Azharuddin, Tendulkar, Ganguly were pretty good. Boss of all is Sehwag. He absolutely thrashed guys like Saqlain, Murali, Warne, Herath.  Gambhir was also good against spin.  

But nothing out of the ordinary.... all teams have players good against spin bowlers that way.

 

Waugh brothers and the entire Aussie team.

Lara and Chanderpaul

Inzi, Yousef, Younis Khan and esp Saeed Anwar vs Kumble

SL had Aravinda, Jaya and Ranatunga etc

 

So we are nothing special against spin.

 

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13 minutes ago, AKane said:

Waugh brothers and the entire Aussie team.

Only Steve was a good player of "spin", Junior Waugh was average at best! Definitely not the entire Aussie side that's just patently false.

 

16 minutes ago, AKane said:

SL had Aravinda, Jaya and Ranatunga etc

And y't didn;t win a single test ever, wonder why?

15 minutes ago, AKane said:

esp Saeed Anwar vs Kumble

He played 1 series vs us in India!

16 minutes ago, AKane said:

So we are nothing special against spin.

Tell that to the greatest spinner ever :hmpf:

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24 minutes ago, AKane said:

But nothing out of the ordinary.... all teams have players good against spin bowlers that way.

 

Waugh brothers and the entire Aussie team.

Lara and Chanderpaul

Inzi, Yousef, Younis Khan and esp Saeed Anwar vs Kumble

SL had Aravinda, Jaya and Ranatunga etc

 

So we are nothing special against spin.

 

 

We are comparing Indian players of the past with Indians of the current. Not with select players of that era from other countries. Can you tell where was the only country Murali and Warne didn't have good numbers. Or Herath for that matter. Murali failed in Australia much like most finger spinners. But he did well in almost all the other countries.

Edited by vvvslaxman
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If you look at spinners average against India at Test level it is the highest against India in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s too. Only in the last 3 years Pakistan has slight upper hand.  We are the benchmark. Gold standard against spin bowling. There is no debate. 

We sure had odd slip ups much like Australian slip ups against seam bowling.   

 

Even in one dayers India has always been the best against spin. Almost all eras since 1990s spinners have done the worst against India.  It is not a myth. Provable, verifiable fact. Even now we are not terrible. Only England is better than us against spin. We are only comparing our side with the great Indian side of the past. Not with other teams.

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1 hour ago, R!TTER said:

 

Tell that to the greatest spinner ever :hmpf:

I always said we played Warne well.

 

See there is this fascination with spin in India - we are masters of spin. No we are not. Other countries don't focus on it as much.

 

For example comparing bowlers of same era in two countries one large India and one small SL

 

Murali and Kumble approx similar times and similar careers 800 wkts vs 600. Now SLs practice against Murali and we against Kumble and co. etc

 

Murali has 105 wkts vs us averaging 32 .61 overall with 40 wicket at 45 average in India and 65 wickets at average 24 odd in SL

Kumble has 74 wkts vs SL averaging 31.20 overall with 44 wickets at 22 average in India and 30 wickets at average 44 in SL

 

Murali    105 at 32.61  home 65 at 24.xx away 40 at 45,xx

Kumble  74   at 31.20  home 44 at 22.xx away 30 at 44.xx

 

It is very similar performance by batsmen from both teams against the premier opposing spinner. That is what I am saying. Sure India had great batsmen from 1995 to 2010 but still the advantage is not overwhelming.

 

Unlike say WI with Sobers/Kanhai/Weekes. They literally padded average against our vaunted spinners in India and WI and maybe even Mars.

Sobers 1900 odd runs vs India at 83.xx    - btw Sobers had 59 wickets vs India at 25.xx bowling prolly spin.

Kanhai 1600 odd runs vs India at 62.xx

Weekes 1400 odd runs vs India at 106.xx  (yes 106 vs Indian spinners)

 

We have never dominated spin like the above and they played against Gupte, Mankad and co. Very good spinners. I know WI is not good now - but they were once and esp against spin. Absolutely dominating.

 

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1 hour ago, AKane said:

I always said we played Warne well.

 

See there is this fascination with spin in India - we are masters of spin. No we are not. Other countries don't focus on it as much.

 

For example comparing bowlers of same era in two countries one large India and one small SL

 

Murali and Kumble approx similar times and similar careers 800 wkts vs 600. Now SLs practice against Murali and we against Kumble and co. etc

 

Murali has 105 wkts vs us averaging 32 .61 overall with 40 wicket at 45 average in India and 65 wickets at average 24 odd in SL

Kumble has 74 wkts vs SL averaging 31.20 overall with 44 wickets at 22 average in India and 30 wickets at average 44 in SL

 

Murali    105 at 32.61  home 65 at 24.xx away 40 at 45,xx

Kumble  74   at 31.20  home 44 at 22.xx away 30 at 44.xx

 

It is very similar performance by batsmen from both teams against the premier opposing spinner. That is what I am saying. Sure India had great batsmen from 1995 to 2010 but still the advantage is not overwhelming.

 

Unlike say WI with Sobers/Kanhai/Weekes. They literally padded average against our vaunted spinners in India and WI and maybe even Mars.

Sobers 1900 odd runs vs India at 83.xx    - btw Sobers had 59 wickets vs India at 25.xx bowling prolly spin.

Kanhai 1600 odd runs vs India at 62.xx

Weekes 1400 odd runs vs India at 106.xx  (yes 106 vs Indian spinners)

 

We have never dominated spin like the above and they played against Gupte, Mankad and co. Very good spinners. I know WI is not good now - but they were once and esp against spin. Absolutely dominating.

 

 

:) I think you missed Sehwag then

 

 

Sehwag scored 82 runs of 64 balls against Herath and 85 runs of 77 balls against Murali on the same day.

 

In another instance

 

He dismantled saqlain mustaq bys coring 91 runs in 80 balls against him

 

These are all test mtaches.

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One of the major thrashing INdia has even to spinner was Qadir who was bully against West Indies. But thrashed by India. There was this guy Bob Holland who was considered to be a sydney specialist. Picking back to back 10fer against the mighty west indies and New zealand. OZ won both test

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-australia-1984-85-61908/australia-vs-west-indies-5th-test-63387/full-scorecard

 

Imagine beating West Indies by an innings in a Test match.

 

His third test at the SCG came against India. That was his  last Test. Just like Sehwag finished Saqlain's career, Srikkanth finished his career. He scored 22 runs in one over in a Test match

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-1985-86-62298/australia-vs-india-3rd-test-63420/full-scorecard

 

 

 

Edited by vvvslaxman
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50 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

One of the major thrashing INdia has even to spinner was Qadir who was bully against West Indies. But thrashed by India. There was this guy Bob Holland who was considered to be a sydney specialist. Picking back to back 10fer against the mighty west indies and New zealand. OZ won both test

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-australia-1984-85-61908/australia-vs-west-indies-5th-test-63387/full-scorecard

 

Imagine beating West Indies by an innings in a Test match.

 

His third test at the SCG came against India. That was his  last Test. Just like Sehwag finished Saqlain's career, Srikkanth finished his career. He scored 22 runs in one over in a Test match

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-1985-86-62298/australia-vs-india-3rd-test-63420/full-scorecard

 

 

 

 

I remember Bob Holland.... the match he won against WI was in the series when Kim Hughes did his sobbing/crying after the 3rd test. WI won the first 3 tests. 4th was drawn and they lost the 5th to Holland.

 

I found it odd that at that time a 38 year old Bob Holland did that to them. Srikkanth was terrific but Holland was also at the tail end of his cricket career. In 1985/86 he was 39 going on 40 years old.  His career started at age 38 and ended at 39.

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2 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

I remember Bob Holland.... the match he won against WI was in the series when Kim Hughes did his sobbing/crying after the 3rd test. WI won the first 3 tests. 4th was drawn and they lost the 5th to Holland.

 

I found it odd that at that time a 38 year old Bob Holland did that to them. Srikkanth was terrific but Holland was also at the tail end of his cricket career. In 1985/86 he was 39 going on 40 years old.  His career started at age 38 and ended at 39.

 

They had to discard him. It was an incredible assault. They had no other option. They brought in Warne who had thrashing of his life at the SCG. Ravi shastri took him to task. 

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26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

They had to discard him. It was an incredible assault. They had no other option. They brought in Warne who had thrashing of his life at the SCG. Ravi shastri took him to task. 

 

If you really want to see a spin thrashing - check out Zaheer Abbas in 1978 vs our "Spin Trio".

 

After that series we abandoned spin trio/quartet crap embraced a new religion and Kapil Dev was born.
 

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9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

If you look at spinners average against India at Test level it is the highest against India in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s too. Only in the last 3 years Pakistan has slight upper hand.  We are the benchmark. Gold standard against spin bowling. There is no debate. 

We sure had odd slip ups much like Australian slip ups against seam bowling.   

 

Even in one dayers India has always been the best against spin. Almost all eras since 1990s spinners have done the worst against India.  It is not a myth. Provable, verifiable fact. Even now we are not terrible. Only England is better than us against spin. We are only comparing our side with the great Indian side of the past. Not with other teams.

We should have played Pakistan in a test series between 2014-2016 when Misbah, YK, Yasir were all somewhere near the peak of their powers. It would have been interesting. 

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12 hours ago, Majestic said:

For the first time, this team looks pretty strong with their spin options.

 

Maharaj, Shamsi and Markram. Phehlukwayo bowls spin only at a faster speed. Then you add Rabada and Nortje. I think they have a good chance in subcontinent conditions. They have an able captain too and this team has seen tough phases so I won't take them lightly going into 2023 World Cup.

Please add Marco Jansen

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Shamsi rubbing it in lol...  Good going.  We need all of it & some more.  Shameless TM & selectors need to brought to their knees.  And big f** u to Ashwin Boobie & Collar chewwer. 

 

Pakistanis should stop moaning...  Their Batsman have been run through by Dilruwan Perera William Somerville & even Ish Sodhi Mark Craig in test cricket in UAE..  In test series defeats.  I can't recall a WI spinner that troubled them in Sharjah test loss in 2016 along with Holder. 

@AKane   Indian players can't compete against this level of mastery

Edited by Lone Wolf
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20 hours ago, AKane said:

I always said we played Warne well.

 

See there is this fascination with spin in India - we are masters of spin. No we are not. Other countries don't focus on it as much.

 

For example comparing bowlers of same era in two countries one large India and one small SL

 

Murali and Kumble approx similar times and similar careers 800 wkts vs 600. Now SLs practice against Murali and we against Kumble and co. etc

 

Murali has 105 wkts vs us averaging 32 .61 overall with 40 wicket at 45 average in India and 65 wickets at average 24 odd in SL

Kumble has 74 wkts vs SL averaging 31.20 overall with 44 wickets at 22 average in India and 30 wickets at average 44 in SL

 

Murali    105 at 32.61  home 65 at 24.xx away 40 at 45,xx

Kumble  74   at 31.20  home 44 at 22.xx away 30 at 44.xx

 

It is very similar performance by batsmen from both teams against the premier opposing spinner. That is what I am saying. Sure India had great batsmen from 1995 to 2010 but still the advantage is not overwhelming.

 

Unlike say WI with Sobers/Kanhai/Weekes. They literally padded average against our vaunted spinners in India and WI and maybe even Mars.

Sobers 1900 odd runs vs India at 83.xx    - btw Sobers had 59 wickets vs India at 25.xx bowling prolly spin.

Kanhai 1600 odd runs vs India at 62.xx

Weekes 1400 odd runs vs India at 106.xx  (yes 106 vs Indian spinners)

 

We have never dominated spin like the above and they played against Gupte, Mankad and co. Very good spinners. I know WI is not good now - but they were once and esp against spin. Absolutely dominating.

 

with hunte, butcher/nurse, 3 W's, kanhai, and sobers, that was the ATG lineup to end all ATG lineups.

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10 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Shamsi rubbing it in lol...  Good going.  We need all of it & some more.  Shameless TM & selectors need to brought to their knees.  And big f** u to Ashwin Boobie & Collar chewwer. 

 

Pakistanis should stop moaning...  Their Batsman have been run through by Dilruwan Perera William Somerville & even Ish Sodhi Mark Craig in test cricket in UAE..  In test series defeats.  I can't recall a WI spinner that troubled them in Sharjah test loss in 2016 along with Holder. 

@AKane   Indian players can't compete against this level of mastery

 

 

I doubt even with 7 spinnres we could not have done anything lol Because SA was not batting like phattus against spin bowling.  Markram pretty much owned the top 4 batsmen from our side lol

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