"Slip Of Tongue": Former Pakistan Skipper Disagrees With Rohit Sharma Terming Ravichandran Ashwin An "All-Time Great"

[Vijy]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Half information. Pak designed pitches to not help Lillee. Even Pak pace bowlers struggled (much like the recent test versus Pak v Aus which has Cummins, Starc, etc.) in the series that Lillee played in. 

one could say the same about WI pace battery, some of whom did well on dead tracks. Lillee is an ATG, but even an ATG can have some areas where they are weak. there is virtually no player (maybe apart from Bradman and 1-2 others) who did uniformly well everywhere. Murali had Aus as an achilles heel, Warne could not do well even on turners in India, etc.

 

Lillee's bowling was not conducive to SC, whereas some of the WI bowlers had diff release points, diff strengths, etc. that enabled them to do relatively better.

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Not interested in making or reading low quality posts at the moment 

thats odd. you are known for those things. anyway carry on.

[zen]

Just now, Vijy said:

one could say the same about WI pace battery, some of whom did well on dead tracks. Lillee is an ATG, but even an ATG can have some areas where they are weak. there is virtually no player (maybe apart from Bradman and 1-2 others) who did uniformly well everywhere. Murali had Aus as an achilles heel, Warne could not do well even on turners in India, etc.

 

Lillee's bowling was not conducive to SC, whereas some of the WI bowlers had diff release points, diff strengths, etc. that enabled them to do relatively better.

 

WI had a strong bowling unit. In the games that Lillee played in Pak, even Pak's pace bowlers struggled big time 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

Ashwin is an ATG if you add his batting credentials as well. 

As a pure bowler no he isn't an ATG yet.  He has zero 5 wicket hauls in SENA.   Murali won't get outbowled by Moeen freakin Ali in any universe twice on a plenty of rough available Rose bowl pitch.  His performance in SA has been below average.   Joburg 2014 I have never seen a Indian spinner look so helpless ever bowling on a day 5 pitch & bowling leg side rubbish. 

That being said Ashwin surely is the best off spinner in current era & will eventually go down as an ATG. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Lone Wolf

[Jay]

Just now, Vijy said:

one could say the same about WI pace battery, some of whom did well on dead tracks. Lillee is an ATG, but even an ATG can have some areas where they are weak. there is virtually no player (maybe apart from Bradman and 1-2 others) who did uniformly well everywhere. Murali had Aus as an achilles heel, Warne could not do well even on turners in India, etc.

 

Lillee's bowling was not conducive to SC, whereas some of the WI bowlers had diff release points, diff strengths, etc. that enabled them to do relatively better.

that guy is a dumbass who believes in weird analogies. His logic makes no sense. He is probably some gimp who lives with his mom and lets her do all his dirty laundry. A couch potato like old indian uncles who walk across the road with their arms crossed behind their back and make random passing comments about other people's personal lives. 

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

thats odd. you are known for those things. anyway carry on.

 

You have a lot to learn including not wasting your time on internet if you are young!

Edited March 9, 2022 by zen

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

one could say the same about WI pace battery, some of whom did well on dead tracks. Lillee is an ATG, but even an ATG can have some areas where they are weak. there is virtually no player (maybe apart from Bradman and 1-2 others) who did uniformly well everywhere. Murali had Aus as an achilles heel, Warne could not do well even on turners in India, etc.

 

Lillee's bowling was not conducive to SC, whereas some of the WI bowlers had diff release points, diff strengths, etc. that enabled them to do relatively better.

I don't think you can call Lillee a failure in SC or his bowling style would have not worked in SC.He hardly played in SC.He would have done very well if he had played more matches.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

WI had a strong bowling unit. In the games that Lillee played in Pak, even Pak's pace bowlers struggled big time 

 

 

well, in that series (which I have seen), Pak had Mudassar Nazar as third pacer and Nawaz as 2nd pacer. I don't rate either of them at all, since Nawaz was second rate too (despite what some Pak fans may think). Imran did struggle but not as much as Lillee.

 

On the whole, sample size is too low. Note that I said in my original post that he is an ATG "In all places except for SC." Simple reason is that Lillee didn't play enough tests to make a concrete judgement either way. My own suspicion is that he wouldn't have done well even with more tests, but it's all "ifs and buts"

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I don't think you can call Lillee a failure in SC or his bowling style would have not worked in SC.He hardly played in SC.He would have done very well if he had played more matches.

I didn't call him a failure in any place on this thread. I did say that I believe his bowling style is not conducive. However, in my above post to Zen, I clarified it further and noted that there is no evidence either way.

[Trichromatic]

434 wickets at avg of 24.

 

2nd best average among all spinners taking more than 250 wickets.

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1992-2010	133	230	44039	18180	800	9/51	16/220	22.72	2.47	55.0	67	22	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Ashwin (INDIA)	2011-2022	85	160	22919	10581	436	7/59	13/140	24.26	2.77	52.5	30	7	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2007	145	273	40705	17995	708	8/71	12/128	25.41	2.65	57.4	37	10	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DL Underwood (ENG)	1966-1982	86	151	21862	7674	297	8/51	13/71	25.83	2.10	73.6	17	6	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
HMRKB Herath (SL)	1999-2018	93	170	25993	12157	433	9/127	14/184	28.07	2.80	60.0	34	9	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
BS Bedi (INDIA)	1966-1979	67	118	21364	7637	266	7/98	10/194	28.71	2.14	80.3	14	1	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	79	148	27115	8989	309	8/38	11/157	29.09	1.98	87.7	18	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	132	236	40850	18355	619	10/74	14/149	29.65	2.69	65.9	35	8	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
GP Swann (ENG)	2008-2013	60	109	15349	7642	255	6/65	10/132	29.96	2.98	60.1	17	3	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2022	106	200	27137	13429	416	8/50	13/154	32.28	2.96	65.2	18	3	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)	1998-2015	103	190	28580	13537	417	8/84	15/217	32.46	2.84	68.5	25	5	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2014	113	187	28814	12441	362	7/87	12/149	34.36	2.59	79.5	20	3	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2000-2010	61	112	17697	9082	261	7/77	12/94	34.79	3.07	67.8	15	2

 

 

He may end career with 600+ wickets.

 

 

 

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

well, in that series (which I have seen), Pak had Mudassar Nazar as third pacer and Nawaz as 2nd pacer. I don't rate either of them at all, since Nawaz was second rate too (despite what some Pak fans may think). Imran did struggle but not as much as Lillee.

 

On the whole, sample size is too low. Note that I said in my original post that he is an ATG "In all places except for SC." Simple reason is that Lillee didn't play enough tests to make a concrete judgement either way. My own suspicion is that he wouldn't have done well even with more tests, but it's all "ifs and buts"

Why did he never play in India?

[Trichromatic]

Can any batsman average 55-60 with 10k runs and not be called an ATG?

[HamHindustani]

ATG is Latif who claimed a dropped catch, cheated the game, his followers and his country

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

Why did he never play in India?

struggled with injuries, Aus didn't tour that much, Packer era stuff, etc.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

Can any batsman average 55-60 with 10k runs and not be called an ATG?

who is this batter you are referring to? Only Kallis and Sanga have those avgs (55-60) after 10K+ runs.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

well, in that series (which I have seen), Pak had Mudassar Nazar as third pacer and Nawaz as 2nd pacer. I don't rate either of them at all, since Nawaz was second rate too (despite what some Pak fans may think). Imran did struggle but not as much as Lillee.

 

On the whole, sample size is too low. Note that I said in my original post that he is an ATG "In all places except for SC." Simple reason is that Lillee didn't play enough tests to make a concrete judgement either way. My own suspicion is that he wouldn't have done well even with more tests, but it's all "ifs and buts"

 

In terms of skills, Lillee is a better bowler than anyone India has produced ... Kapil Dev went without picking up a wkt in the '86 series versus Aus in Ind. He failed or did not do as well as others in SL too in the 80s if I am not wrong. If Kapil can pick up wkts in SC and even do well in some series, I have no doubt that Lillee could do better than that if he had played more games. 

 

[Trichromatic]

26 minutes ago, zen said:

Issue with spinners like Ashwin is that they are mostly good only on rank turners ... Play him in Pak on the R'pindi pitch and he is likely to struggle as well 

 

And among top teams, on Ind & SL tend to rely on rank turners. While good pace bowlers can do well in SENA, WI, and even in SC at many venues.  

 

Same can be said about any bowler, any batsman.

 

Batsmen would fail most of the time on raging turners and green tracks. Pacers will struggle most of the time. 

 

Good only rank turners? Ashwin has performed flat pitches multiple times. More often than other Indian players and he is prime reason why India has 10+ W/L ratio in last 9 years.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Same can be said about any bowler, any batsman.

 

Batsmen would fail most of the time on raging turners and green tracks. Pacers will struggle most of the time. 

 

Good only rank turners? Ashwin has performed flat pitches multiple times. More often than other Indian players and he is prime reason why India has 10+ W/L ratio in last 9 years.

 

I don't think Ashwin can do as well versus strong teams in SC apart from pitches where spinners get assistance. 

 

Eng won a test recently, India had to leave pitches "unprepared" to make him, and even likes of Axar, compete 

 

PS I have similar opinion on likes of Herath too 

Edited March 9, 2022 by zen

[Vijy]

Just now, zen said:

 

In terms of skills, Lillee is a better bowler than anyone India has produced ... Kapil Dev went without picking up a wkt in the '86 series versus Aus in Ind. He failed or did not do as well as others in SL too in the 80s if I am not wrong. If Kapil can pick up wkts in SC and even do well in some series, I have no doubt that Lillee could do better than that if he had played more games. 

 

no doubt about the bolded part of your statement. we have some good pacers now, but they need to play 50+ tests with sustained success to get close.

 

Kapil has an okay record in SC, but in those days (80s and 90s), the real SC experts were Padosi bowlers - Immy, two W's - aided by bottle caps and home umpires.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Same can be said about any bowler, any batsman.

 

Batsmen would fail most of the time on raging turners and green tracks. Pacers will struggle most of the time. 

 

Good only rank turners? Ashwin has performed flat pitches multiple times. More often than other Indian players and he is prime reason why India has 10+ W/L ratio in last 9 years.

george headley - maestro of playing on bad pitches. ken barrington - overseas expert, especially in SC. I think there are a few exceptions. even Steven Smith during his peak.