"Slip Of Tongue": Former Pakistan Skipper Disagrees With Rohit Sharma Terming Ravichandran Ashwin An "All-Time Great"

[zen]

Just now, Trichromatic said:

 

Most of the wins are on flat pitches.

 

At home where spinners come in to play from day 2-3 onwards (and many times even on day 1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

For some morons Pandya is ATG but Ashwin is useless.Nobody can educate them.

[Adamant]

No one can say how Dennis Lille would have performed in India. 

Just because Kapil did well in India does not mean that Lillee wpuld have done the same, that's probably the worst logic I have heard. 

 

An inferior bowler can be way better than the other in select few conditions. 

 

Just like how Peter Siddle  is better than Waqar in Australia. 

 

Dennis Lillee hardly played in SC so it wouldn't be fair to judge him as a failure/ success in SC. 

 

But his record in all other places is good enough to suggest that he was an undisputed ATG

[zen]

Just now, Lord said:

 

Leach took 2 for 100 in first inning. Dom Bess took 1 going for 6 rpo on last day when pitch had 'worn down'

 

Ashwin lacked a partner in that Test. Both Jaddu/Axar werent there. Else first innings would be better too.

 

No one is rating Leach and Bess. They did well on their first tour in different innings ... While this rank turner specialist playing on his home ground came a cropper in the first inning, and in the 2nd innings came in to open the inning  

 

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, Adamant said:

No one can say how Dennis Lille would have performed in India. 

Just because Kapil did well in India does not mean that Lillee wpuld have done the same, that's probably the worst logic I have heard. 

 

An inferior bowler can be way better than the other in select few conditions. 

 

Just like how Peter Siddle  is better than Waqar in Australia. 

 

Dennis Lillee hardly played in SC so it wouldn't be fair to judge him as a failure/ success in SC. 

 

But his record in all other places is good enough to suggest that he was an undisputed ATG

 

so if Ashwin played only 4-5 Tests in SENA, he'd been deemed an ATG?

[Trichromatic]

Out of 41 tests that India has played at home since 2013,

 

(Batting paradise) 50+ averages matches for Indian team: 16 (39 %), Won 13, Drawn 3 (1 washed out game)

(Flat pitches) 40-50 averaging matches for Indian team: 9 (21.9 %), Won 8, drawn 1

(Good batting tracks) 30-40 averaging matches for Indian team: 8 (19.5 %), Won 7, Drawn 1)

 

Less than 30 averaging matches: 8 (19.5 %)

[Adamant]

Calling Ashwin a Rank turner Bully just shows that the guy at the other end lacks the cricketing knowledge required to participate in a  proper discussion. 

 

Not only that it also shows that he doesn't follow test cricket and is mostly concerned with IPL and IPL specialist players. 

 

Eng toured Ind in 2016 and there were a lot of high scoring matches, Ashwin was our MVP in that series. 

 

 

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Out of 41 tests that India has played at home since 2013,

 

(Batting paradise) 50+ averages matches for Indian team: 16 (39 %), Won 13, Drawn 3 (1 washed out game)

(Flat pitches) 40-50 averaging matches for Indian team: 9 (21.9 %), Won 8, drawn 1

(Good batting tracks) 30-40 averaging matches for Indian team: 8 (19.5 %), Won 7, Drawn 1)

 

Less than 30 averaging matches: 8 (19.5 %)

 

Yes, India team's batting averages against opponents who don't use too many spinners  

[Trichromatic]

Just now, zen said:

 

Yes, India team's batting averages against opponents who don't use too many spinners  

 

Yes, pitch is flat when Indian batsmen score 500 and it becomes rank turner when Ashwin bowls.

 

We have seen that type of logic many times.

[Adamant]

4 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

so if Ashwin played only 4-5 Tests in SENA, he'd been deemed an ATG?

The problem with this logic is - 

 

During Lillee's time the best teams were 

Wi, 

Aus

Eng

Pak

 

He did spectacularly well in 3 out of four countries. 

Where he had to face different kind of challenges. 

 

Now the problem with Ashwin is, during his time he didn't have to face Pak, Sl was weak and Ban is hardly an opposition. 

 

SENA countries are the most important in this era, unfortunately for Ashwin, if he had to face Pakistan I am sure he would have done better and would be rated higher but he has done nothing much in SENA except in Aus and even there his record is bad due to the first tour. 

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, Adamant said:

The problem with this logic is - 

 

During Lillee's time the best teams were 

Wi, 

Aus

Eng

Pak

 

He did spectacularly well in 3 out of four countries. 

Where he had to face different kind of challenges. 

 

Now the problem with Ashwin is, during his time he didn't have to face Pak, Sl was weak and Ban is hardly an opposition. 

 

SENA countries are the most important in this era, unfortunately for Ashwin, if he had to face Pakistan I am sure he would have done better and would be rated higher but he has done nothing much in SENA except in Aus and even there his record is bad due to the first tour. 

 

Ofcourse as a pacer he did well in WI,Aus,Eng of 70s,80s, the pitches were favourable. He failed in only challenges in SL and Pak though I agree sample size is low.

 

Ashwin has done well v every team in favourable conditions as well.

[Majestic]

Ashwin is not an ATG. He is just a country great. And he cannot be an ATG with a SENA average and wickets tally worse than Kumble. 

[putrevus]

5 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Out of 41 tests that India has played at home since 2013,

 

(Batting paradise) 50+ averages matches for Indian team: 16 (39 %)

(Flat pitches) 40-50 averaging matches for Indian team: 9 (21.9 %)

(Good batting tracks) 30-40 averaging matches for Indian team: 8 (19.5 %)

Less than 30 averaging matches: 8 (19.5 %)

Spot on .Why is performing in India taken for granted.I think India in general need to get over hump in certain countries and they will get continuous success in those countries.No SENA team will prepare pitches suiting spinners when India plays them.Ashwin has come up short in some places but it cannot diminish his greatness.

[putrevus]

17 minutes ago, Adamant said:

The problem with this logic is - 

 

During Lillee's time the best teams were 

Wi, 

Aus

Eng

Pak

 

He did spectacularly well in 3 out of four countries. 

Where he had to face different kind of challenges. 

 

Now the problem with Ashwin is, during his time he didn't have to face Pak, Sl was weak and Ban is hardly an opposition. 

 

SENA countries are the most important in this era, unfortunately for Ashwin, if he had to face Pakistan I am sure he would have done better and would be rated higher but he has done nothing much in SENA except in Aus and even there his record is bad due to the first tour. 

No Lillee did not even take one wicket in WI.Only places he did well are England and Australia.NZ was very poor team during his peak years. Lillee would have been dealt by WI when facing their full strength team like they did in 1979-80 series.If he had toured WI he would have been pounded on those flat wickets against those strong WI teams too in 1980s.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by putrevus

[Majestic]

Kohli as test captain has a special legacy for below two things :-

 

1. Always backing fast bowlers and playing the game with passion and aggression keeping their pacers excited enough.

 

2. Realising that Ashwin is awfully mediocre overseas and must be dropped. This is a masterstroke from him and even after massive criticism, he was smart to not change his stance here.

[putrevus]

^^^ Ashwin was not dropped due to his bowling in favor of Jadeja.Jadeja was preferred due to his batting  and fielding to some extent.

[zen]

33 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Yes, pitch is flat when Indian batsmen score 500 and it becomes rank turner when Ashwin bowls.

 

We have seen that type of logic many times.

Ashwin & co can do zilch against its own batting line up in “flat” conditions (I guess Ind would have gone in with 3 pace bowlers on such wkts too  )

 

And we saw how Ashwin does on “non-tailored” pitches

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

Dennis Lillee is a revolutionary of fast bowling, and is a man who inspired pretty much all the great fast bowlers that came after him. Stats are irrelevant in his case and 40 years later, people cannot come up with this country specific stats( that too are nitpicked here and based on him playing one match on his last leg) to demean him given that he is widely regarded as one of the all time greats of the game.

 

Lillee to fast bowling was like Kapil Dev to Indian cricket. You can have your all rounders with better statistics than Dev but in terms of impact and legacy, Kapil will always be extremely special even though he had a bowling average of 29. 

 

Ashwin don't have that sort of legacy. He is about same as Kumble except that Kumble had tough time overseas due to lack of support while Ashwin has tough time overseas even with full support from his pacers.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Majestic

[SK_IH]

"Rashid Latif said on Caught Behind YouTube channel" 

BC in chewtiyon ki bakchodi ko itni seriously kyo lete ho

[Mesky99]

32 minutes ago, Adamant said:

The problem with this logic is - 

 

During Lillee's time the best teams were 

Wi, 

Aus

Eng

Pak

 

He did spectacularly well in 3 out of four countries. 

Where he had to face different kind of challenges. 

 

Now the problem with Ashwin is, during his time he didn't have to face Pak, Sl was weak and Ban is hardly an opposition. 

 

SENA countries are the most important in this era, unfortunately for Ashwin, if he had to face Pakistan I am sure he would have done better and would be rated higher but he has done nothing much in SENA except in Aus and even there his record is bad due to the first tour. 

2015 sl tour Ashwin was probably at his best with the ball, sl batting line up was pretty solid with sanga, karunaratne, Matthews, chandimal, kusal Pereira etc. England series at home in 2016 Ashwin again did well on good batting pitches.