Vijy Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 11 minutes ago, Adamant said: I didn't mention Cummins anywhere. Shoaib has played 49, that's good enough. Yeah Bond can be excluded, his exclusion actually helps me in my quest to proves medium pacers have done better than express pacers. The support thing can be applied only to some degree, Shami hasn't done well in Eng, Nz even after he got all th support and his overseas stats are way worse than Gillespie. 46 tests for shoaib, not 49. as long as one is discussing top pacers, my point is that both cummins and bumrah should be in conversation irrespective of how many tests they placed. one can slice and dice stats any way one wishes but shami is objectively better than gillespie. express bowling 1 Link to comment
Jay Posted May 6, 2022 Author Share Posted May 6, 2022 13 minutes ago, Adamant said: A team having Atherton, Gatting, Robin Smith, Butcher, Stewart, Caddick, fraser, Gough is definitely stronger than the current team. Nope. Stokes, Joe root, bowling with wood, archer back, buttler, ollie robinson woakes is way way better. Those guys sucked donkey balls in 90s. Couldn't even beat weak as piss poor Indian team of 90s at their home convincingly. Stop spewing rubbish. Link to comment
Jay Posted May 6, 2022 Author Share Posted May 6, 2022 25 minutes ago, Adamant said: I didn't mention Cummins anywhere. Shoaib has played 49, that's good enough. Yeah Bond can be excluded, his exclusion actually helps me in my quest to proves medium pacers have done better than express pacers. The support thing can be applied only to some degree, Shami hasn't done well in Eng, Nz even after he got all th support and his overseas stats are way worse than Gillespie. Shoaib did * all in Australia and India. Waqar averages 70 and 50 in Australia and India. He sucks. Against good teams he sucks. Link to comment
singhvivek141 Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 7 hours ago, cric_fan said: Check your mate@Jay derogatory abuse towards me before commenting. Ok? You call yourself "cric_fan" and are hurling abuses against players, that's wrong. Link to comment
singhvivek141 Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Adamant said: Why are you considering strike rates and not averages? If strike rate is the measure then Waqar >Wasim, Mcgrath, Marshall. Average Wise Tests Gillespie : 26.13 Shami : 27.05 ODI Gillespie : 25.42 Shami : 25.62 Gillespie is marginally better than Shami in terms of average. But it isn't as high (difference of < 1). Had there been a difference of 4-5 average points, I would have considered Gillespie better than Shami. But considering both average and strike rate states Shami as winner. Edited May 6, 2022 by singhvivek141 Norman, Vijy and express bowling 1 2 Link to comment
Norman Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 5 hours ago, Adamant said: A team having Atherton, Gatting, Robin Smith, Butcher, Stewart, Caddick, fraser, Gough is definitely stronger than the current team. Lol what a sorry list. caddick, Butcher, Gough lmao. express bowling and Vijy 2 Link to comment
Jay Posted May 6, 2022 Author Share Posted May 6, 2022 13 minutes ago, Norman said: Lol what a sorry list. caddick, Butcher, Gough lmao. I rate Gough. He is pretty good but cmon broady Anderson archer even Robinson are all better. That time they have never seen a pace as fast as wood. England can't handle the heat. Vijy 1 Link to comment
Adamant Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Norman said: Lol what a sorry list. caddick, Butcher, Gough lmao. Burns, Vince, Malan, Buttler, Bairstow. Lol The 90s England side was better. Edited May 6, 2022 by Adamant Link to comment
Norman Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, Adamant said: Burns, Vince, Malan, Buttler, Bairstow. Lol The 90s England side was better. Cook, Root and Stokes are better players than anyone in the England 90s team. And don't even get me started on the bowling attacks. Anderson, Broad, Woakes, Moeen are atleast two levels above Caddick, Mullaly, Gough etc. As I said, try harder. Suhaan and Vijy 2 Link to comment
rkt.india Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 (edited) On 5/5/2022 at 7:15 PM, Adamant said: Express pacers who averaged below 30 in test cricket - Akhtar 25.7 Bond 23 Thomson Roberts Holding And?? Medium pacers who avgd below 30 in test cricket - Mcgrath Garner Ambrose Walsh Pollock Philander Vaas Kapil Caddick Fraser And many others - can't even remember all of them This forum has become fixated with speedometer, THE HISTORY OF TEST CRICKET EXPLAINS US THAT MEDIUM PACERS HAVE DONE WAY BETTER THAN THESE SPEED MERCHANTS. Who cares how fast you bowl, give me a wicker taker anyday over a Spraygun. Johnson, Starc, Steyn, Donald. Ambrose, garner were not medium pacers. And there have been umpteen medium pacers, while express pacers have been few. So success ratio for express pacers is much higher than medium pacers. Only bowler who bowled around 135 can be called medium pacer. Edited May 7, 2022 by rkt.india rollingstoned and Vijy 1 1 Link to comment
express bowling Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 (edited) On 5/5/2022 at 7:15 PM, Adamant said: Express pacers who averaged below 30 in test cricket - Akhtar 25.7 Bond 23 Thomson Roberts Holding And?? Medium pacers who avgd below 30 in test cricket - Mcgrath Garner Ambrose Walsh Pollock Philander Vaas Kapil Caddick Fraser And many others - can't even remember all of them This forum has become fixated with speedometer, THE HISTORY OF TEST CRICKET EXPLAINS US THAT MEDIUM PACERS HAVE DONE WAY BETTER THAN THESE SPEED MERCHANTS. Who cares how fast you bowl, give me a wicker taker anyday over a Spraygun. Why bend facts to prove your non-existent point !!!! The most successful test match pacers have come from the " FAST " and " TALL BOUNCY FAST-MEDIUM " category. Medium pacers have rarely been all condition pacers and express pacers usually have short careers. It's laughworthy to try to pass Ambrose and Garner as medium pacers. And conveniently forgetting greats like Marshall, Donald, Steyn, Lillee, Waqar, Wasim, Imran while including Caddick, Fraser, Vaas. PACERS AVERAGING 26 or less with 100+ test wickets ( last 50 years ) ---- FAST .... Marshall Ambrose Steyn Donald Holding Roberts Lillee Gillespie Harris Imran Waqar Shoaib ( express ) Current .. Cummins Bumrah Rabada TALL BOUNCY FAST-MEDIUM .... Garner McGrath Walsh Akram Hadlee ( not bouncy or tall ) Current .. Anderson Hazlewood MEDIUM PACERS .... Philander Pollock ( but very tall and bouncy ) P.S -- Express pacers like Starc, Johnson and Thomson and Fast bowlers like Shami, and Ntini all average 27 or 28 Edited May 7, 2022 by express bowling Lord and Vijy 1 1 Link to comment
Adamant Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 1 hour ago, express bowling said: Why bend facts to prove your non-existent point !!!! The most successful test match pacers have come from the " FAST " and " TALL BOUNCY FAST-MEDIUM " category. Medium pacers have rarely been all condition pacers and express pacers usually have short careers. It's laughworthy to try to pass Ambrose and Garner as medium pacers. And conveniently forgetting greats like Marshall, Donald, Steyn, Lillee, Waqar, Wasim, Imran while including Caddick, Fraser, Vaas. PACERS AVERAGING 26 or less with 100+ test wickets ( last 50 years ) ---- FAST .... Marshall Ambrose Steyn Donald Holding Roberts Lillee Gillespie Harris Imran Waqar Shoaib ( express ) Current .. Cummins Bumrah Rabada TALL BOUNCY FAST-MEDIUM .... Garner McGrath Walsh Akram Hadlee ( not bouncy or tall ) Current .. Anderson Hazlewood MEDIUM PACERS .... Philander Pollock ( but very tall and bouncy ) P.S -- Express pacers like Starc, Johnson and Thomson and Fast bowlers like Shami, and Ntini all average 27 or 28 Sorry you are wrong here. We were talking about bowlers who usually bowl above 145 kph. Just see the first post in the thread and you will get to know what I was arguing against. Jay thinks that Naseem, Shaheen, Hasan etc are all trundlers, but all of them bowl 135 - 145 with Nassem and Shaheen hitting 145+ too on some occasions. So I pointed out that 135-145 kph pacers have been the most successful and definitely Garner and Ambrose were fast medium and so is Shami. Bumrah's average pace is 137, I dont know how you are calling him a fast bowler and keeping him in the same category as the likes of Holding, Donald. Sorry you are merging two different categories here. Fast bowlers are - Johnson, Wood, Lockie, Bumrah, Cummins, Imran, Wasim, Garner, Ambrose don't belong in that category. Actually if you watch their videos you will find that they consistently bowled from 135 - 143 with odd balls above 145, this definitely applies for Garner and Ambrose, half their career they were just 135-140 kph pacers and Garner was even slower. On the tour of India, Viv was asked who will be west Indies' spinner for India, he said Joel Garner is our spinner. Joel was definitely medium fast with extra bounce. The problem is that you didn't see what I was arguing against, Cummins, Rabada, Bumrah are all capable of bowling 145 but their average speed in 137 ish which is lesser than Shaheen, Naseem and they definitely don't belong amongst the likes of actual FAST BOWLERS like Johnson, Holding, Donald, Bond etc. Link to comment
Adamant Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 Bumrah, Cummins, Rabada (current version) belong in the FAST MEDIUM RANGE. Johnson, Donald, Steyn, Holding, Bond, Wood are FAST BOWLERS. We need to know the difference between Medium Fast Fast Medium Fast. Putting Bumrah, Cummins in the same category as Holding, Donald, Johnson is preposterous. Link to comment
Majestic Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Adamant said: Bumrah, Cummins, Rabada (current version) belong in the FAST MEDIUM RANGE. Johnson, Donald, Steyn, Holding, Bond, Wood are FAST BOWLERS. We need to know the difference between Medium Fast Fast Medium Fast. Putting Bumrah, Cummins in the same category as Holding, Donald, Johnson is preposterous. Umesh is faster than Shami and Bumrah. Link to comment
Adamant Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Majestic said: Umesh is faster than Shami and Bumrah. Nowadays he is also a fast medium pacer, a bit faster than Bumrah but still in the same category. Link to comment
Majestic Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Adamant said: Bumrah, Cummins, Rabada (current version) belong in the FAST MEDIUM RANGE. Johnson, Donald, Steyn, Holding, Bond, Wood are FAST BOWLERS. We need to know the difference between Medium Fast Fast Medium Fast. Putting Bumrah, Cummins in the same category as Holding, Donald, Johnson is preposterous. Also, I think Rabada is faster than Bumrah and Cummins..Rabada belongs to fast category. Bumrah and Cummins are borderline or fast medium. Link to comment
Adamant Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 9 minutes ago, Majestic said: Also, I think Rabada is faster than Bumrah and Cummins..Rabada belongs to fast category. Bumrah and Cummins are borderline or fast medium. When Rabada came into the SA team he was definitely Fast but now he has slowed down, in the recent SA series he was bowling in mid 130s. Link to comment
express bowling Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Adamant said: Sorry you are wrong here. We were talking about bowlers who usually bowl above 145 kph. Just see the first post in the thread and you will get to know what I was arguing against. Jay thinks that Naseem, Shaheen, Hasan etc are all trundlers, but all of them bowl 135 - 145 with Nassem and Shaheen hitting 145+ too on some occasions. So I pointed out that 135-145 kph pacers have been the most successful and definitely Garner and Ambrose were fast medium and so is Shami. In TEST matches, any pacer who can bowl 135 k to 145 k regularly ... Fastest speed of around 90 mph or 144.8 kph and average speed of around 85 mph or 136.8 kph ... is a FAST bowler. Moreover, genuine fast bowling is not just about releae speeds. It's about the ability to extract life out of pitches .. make the ball fly .. hurry batsmen consistently .. most importantly, intimidate them with hostile deliveries. Can't compare the speeds of Tontee-Tontee specislists who bowl 8 overs a week compared to test match pacers bowling 20+ overs a day. A lot of banter goes on between Indians and Pakistanis ... and what Jay has written is basically banter. Quote Bumrah's average pace is 137, I dont know how you are calling him a fast bowler and keeping him in the same category as the likes of Holding, Donald. Sorry you are merging two different categories here. From a Cricviz article .... " Bumrah’s got it all – accuracy, pace, seam movement – making him the potent bowler that he is. He bowls at an average speed 139.2 kph – the highest of all the bowlers in this list of accurate bowlers. " Even if he were averaging 137 k in test matches, it is still fast. And he can bowl entire spells at around 90 mph when the situation demands. Even recently wd saw that in England, South Africa and against SL, that too in tests. Holding's fastest ball in the 1979 speed competition was 141 k, anx you think he averaged more than 137 k in actual test matches !!!! Donald was express only for 2 years. Then he became fast and probably averaged in the high 130s too. For reference, Starc averaged 141 kph in test and he is an express biwler. If we get a pacer averaging 137 k+ in tests after playing international cricket for 5 + years, he is a fast bowler. Quote Fast bowlers are - Johnson, Wood, Lockie, They are express bowlers, not fast. And Lockie does not play tests, so I wont really compare his speed to Johnson or other test bowlers. Quote Bumrah, Cummins, Imran, Wasim, Garner, Ambrose don't belong in that category. Actually if you watch their videos you will find that they consistently bowled from 135 - 143 with odd balls above 145, this definitely applies for Garner and Ambrose, half their career they were just 135-140 kph pacers and Garner was even slower. Batsmen who have actuallh played Bumrah, Cummins, Imran etc. say that they are very fast. And that is all that matters ... because the purpose of quick bowling is to intimidate batters. What we fans think is immaterial. 135 k to 145 k is very fast unless it's a Tontee Tontee joke of a flat pitch designed for hit and giggle cricket where a tailender can step out snd hit Cummins or Steyn for a 6. Quote On the tour of India, Viv was asked who will be west Indies' spinner for India, he said Joel Garner is our spinner. Joel was definitely medium fast with extra bounce. The problem is that you didn't see what I was arguing against, Cummins, Rabada, Bumrah are all capable of bowling 145 but their average speed in 137 ish which is lesser than Shaheen, Naseem and they definitely don't belong amongst the likes of actual FAST BOWLERS like Johnson, Holding, Donald, Bond etc. Bumrah, Cummins and Rabada are all mature bowlers. Playing for a long time. All were quicker than they are now when they were at Shaheen's career stage. And Naseem is s tearaway now. We will compare after a few years. It's like someone saying that Kuldeep Sen is quicker than Umesh Yadav. Fact is, at Sen's career stage, Umesh was as quick. Edited May 7, 2022 by express bowling Vijy, Suhaan and rollingstoned 3 Link to comment
express bowling Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 6 hours ago, Majestic said: Umesh is faster than Shami and Bumrah. Bumrah of 2022 is way faster than Umesh of 2022. Bumrah was bowling entire spells at 142 k to 147 k in both tests vs SL a couple of months back. He was the quickest pacer from both sides vs South Africa In early 2022. Umesh can hardly touch 142 k in tests these days. Suhaan and rollingstoned 2 Link to comment
express bowling Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, Majestic said: Also, I think Rabada is faster than Bumrah and Cummins..Rabada belongs to fast category. Bumrah and Cummins are borderline or fast medium. Rabada has been bowling lots of 130 k to 135 k spells in test matches in the last 18 months. He is actually the slowest of the 3 in the last year and a half, especially in tests. Nevertheless, these are all release speeds. Batsmen who play Cummins, Bumrah and Rabada all claim that all 3 feel very fast to face. Edited May 8, 2022 by express bowling Suhaan 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now