Gyanvapi mosque in Kashi - whats going on?

[Clarke]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

what religion did the "sangam era" tamils believe in?

 

 

Sampoorna kumbho na karoti shabdham
ardho ghato ghoshamupaiti noonam
vidvaan kuleeno na karoti garvam
gunairviheenaaha bahu jalpayanti

 

Just so you know, the first constitutional democratic republic in the milky way was the Atheist Tambi Republic of Periyarland Eelam with Lord Velupillai Prabhakaran as its founding father. Unfortunately the Aryan invasion destroyed all it's monuments 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Clarke

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

Just so you know, the first constitutional democratic republic in the milky way was the Atheist Tambi Republic of Periyarland Eelam with Lord Velupillai Prabhakaran as its founding father. Unfortunately the Aryan invasion destroyed all it's monuments 

banjo "shaivism" "vaishnavism", but no 'connection' with rest of Bharat or Hinduism.  I mean, the height of moronic blinkers.  

 

I have a lot of time for atheists, and agree with much of what most atheists' critique of religion. But fools with delusion arrogance of superiority often feed such 'facts' to themselves.  

[dial_100]

On 5/19/2022 at 8:46 AM, Clarke said:

 

ok enough now, we're talking Kashi Mathura & not building some temple in Mecca Madina 

 

This is the problem with u marxists, don't have any respect for hinduism and will concede to every Islamist demand. 

 

There is a mosque for every 3 temples in India and there are total 7 Lacs mosques. 

 

[ash]

19 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

Just so you know, the first constitutional democratic republic in the milky way was the Atheist Tambi Republic of Periyarland Eelam with Lord Velupillai Prabhakaran as its founding father. Unfortunately the Aryan invasion destroyed all it's monuments 

Lol man, Marxist and now LTTE eh. I am neither , in fact I am against them and their ideology.

 

atleast the other guy was trying to argue something, but you on the other hand. But yeah I understand, you need to know something to argue. You don’t have that the only weapon you have is name calling 

[Clarke]

11 minutes ago, ash said:

Lol man, Marxist and now LTTE eh. I am neither , in fact I am against them and their ideology.

 

atleast the other guy was trying to argue something, but you on the other hand. But yeah I understand, you need to know something to argue. You don’t have that the only weapon you have is name calling 

 

Hey, I know you would prefer Prabhakaran to Nehru or Sardar coz language based Eelam is superior to India for u  

 

And btw that so called tiger was also inspired by social justice marxist ideas, it's ok to not know.  

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Clarke

[rangeelaraja]

17 hours ago, ash said:

There is no official data to compare, your mind just imagines that the scale is huge because the Mughals are “bad”. There are similar examples of Hindu kings plundering Buddhist temples, other Hindu temples etc.  Pandyas , Pallavas, Guptas, Cholas have all done this, the Pandyas plundered Buddhist temples in Srilanka.

 

As I said, that is how Conquests used to be. And this is what a democracy is supposed to protect from happening.  If we start destroying mosques, it just means that what we have is not a democracy and the Muslims are basically living in a Hindu Kingdom.

 

Ashfaq / Ashraf / Ashrafullah     - whatever your real name is.....democracy is also there to correct historical wrongs that have been done with the majority.

 

Babri masjid was not actively used for prayers, yet in a 80 % Hindu majority country, at the most sacred site of Hinduism the peacefuls had no sensitivity towards this fact, infact they had the KHUJLI to pretend as if Babur was some sufi saint not a barbaric invader.

 

How would muslims react if a mandir was planted on the Kabbah site after bulldozing it ?

 

The million dollar question for all muslims who love secularism when they are in minority is -

 

Pray..what kind of secularism is displayed in the the holy book that divides the world info believers and non- believers, says the non-believers will roast in hell, convert non-believers or make them pay Jizya.....What kind of secularism is this ?

 

It is a ironic that while Islam is inherently unsecular, peacefuls talk about secularism from the rooftops wherever they are a minority.

 

Everyone of the manmade Abrahamic religions including Islam ...has a "start date",  the story is the same always.... there was a chosen "prophet" who was made the messenger of god and revelations were made. 

 

None of the scriptures  have ever been able to trace the origins of Sanatana Dharma....when it originated.  It is timeless, it has existed forever...just like the universe. 

 

Sanatana Dhrama is  the only "true" way of life,  unlike some man made frauds done a few 1000 -2000 years back. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prakat]

Should Indian Muslims cling on to a non-mosque? Gyanvapi is a living monument of past wrongs

 

The Places of Worship Act is a generous law. Indian Muslims can best reciprocate this generosity by adhering to the Quranic morality in Gyanvapi Masjid's case.

IBN KHALDUN BHARATI

17 May, 2022 09:30 am IST

 

File photo of the Gyanvapi Mosque | Photo: Commons

Text Size: A- A+

 

No matter what happened in history, the sober and principled position has always been that desecration and destruction of a place of worship, belonging to other religions, is an abomination for which there could be no theological reasoning or normative justification in Islam. The Quran, very unequivocally, affirms, “Had God not been repelling some people by means of some others, the monasteries, the churches, the synagogues and the mosques, where God’s name is abundantly remembered, would have been demolished” (22:40).

As the tide of Islamic conquests surged, the standing orders for the armies used to be, “Do not spread corruption in the earth. Do not kill any animal. Do not cut down a fruit-bearing tree. Do not demolish a place of worship. Do not kill any children, old people or women” (Muwatta, Imam Malik). That these guidelines were more honoured in the breach than the observance is an irony which soon gave rise to the cult of But-Shikan, the iconoclastic warrior, who smashed idols and demolished temples. If this trend has been a paradox, the contradiction should be acknowledged and resolved. But, if the same has been the linear and logical unfolding of the precepts of Islam, reconstruction and reformulation of Islamic thought could no longer be delayed.

 

Could a mosque be built with ill acquired money or on an illegally occupied site, much less the one where a house of worship belonging to another religion stood? There is a consensus that it would be sinful and that such a structure couldn’t be consecrated as a mosque. This is a well laid principle which is exemplified in the prophetic precedent and how the Rashidun, Rightly Guided, caliphs conducted themselves. When Prophet Muhammad migrated to Medina, though he could have built a mosque at whichever place he liked, he not only declined the offer of the site gratis, but paid over and above the going rate for the land. There is no historical report that he converted a synagogue in Medina into a mosque even after the Jewish tribes were expelled or exterminated after successive battles. The second caliph, Hazrat Umar, in his covenant with the Christian patriarch of Jerusalem, declared, “Their churches will not be occupied, demolished, or reduced in number. Their churches and crucifixes will not be desecrated and neither anything else of their property. They will not be coerced to abandon their religion and none of them will be harmed” (Tareekh Al-Tabari).

All this notwithstanding, if the poet Iqbal could still have no qualms in singing, “Di azaneń kabhi Europe ke kalisaoń meiń (we called azan in the churches of Europe), it shows that Islam as an imperial ideology had diverged widely from its pristine spirituality.

---

Living memories of past wrongs

When the dispute around Babri Masjid erupted, the Hindu claim that the mosque was built upon a razed temple was contested by the Muslims who said that there was no clear evidence that a temple existed there. The presumption underlying this argument was that if a temple existed on the site, the mosque would become void, and the Muslims would stop contesting the Hindu claim. Eventually, the Supreme Court decided the case in favour of the Hindus on the basis of archaeological evidence that underneath the mosque was a structure whose architecture was distinctly indigenous and non-Islamic.

The Muslim argument with regard to Babri Masjid that it wasn’t built over a Hindu temple was fraught with implications for such mosques as were incontrovertibly built over demolished temples. Literary evidence from the contemporary chronicles are corroborated by architectural proofs lying in plain sight. The rear wall of Gyanvapi Masjid — a telltale name for a mosque — is one such smoking gun.

 

However, such structures are secure in their present status so long as the Places of Worship (Special Provisions) Act, 1991 remains on the statute. This law guards a place of worship, as it existed on the day of India’s independence, against any conversion. The sole exception to it, Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid, is a bygone issue now.

 

Be that as it may, if a structure is known to be raised over a destroyed temple, could it become a mosque according to the Sharia or the Islamic law? The answer is an unequivocal and emphatic ‘No!’ So, why should a Muslim cling on to such a non-mosque, and add more bad blood to an already embittered situation? True, the wrongs of history can’t be righted. But every past is not dead. Some continue to live in the present. A living monument of the wrongs of the past would have to be addressed if bad memories are sincerely sought to be buried.

---

Renunciation to reconciliation

One can’t be held accountable for what their ancestors did in the past, but what if the later generations continue to hold on to the same ideals which impelled their forefathers into committing the wrongs whose redressal is sought today? The question acquires an added poignancy if the said ancestors were not the biological progenitors but mere ideological predecessors. Renouncing one’s real and genetic ancestry in favour of a fictitious and ideological lineage may have the romanticism of idealism, but like all idealisms, it too takes its toll.

A tangible loss for an ideological gain has been the bargain which Indian Muslims have considered profitable. Narrative and worldview are powerful forces. If history is ploughed into political narrative and the making of identity, then one must be prepared to own, disown, embrace and reject the past accordingly. Glorying in one’s natural or adopted ancestors’ accomplishments is understandable, but it has its flip side. It also places on one’s shoulders the onus of the adopted ancestors’ crimes. Insofar as the present generation is willing to glory in a group identity and accept its accomplishments as an extension of the self, they expose themselves to the crimes associated with that group identity as well. It is on this premise that the Quran bases its polemics with the Jews in words like, “O’ Beni Israel, remember My blessings wherewith I favoured you…” (2:40,47).

Denial and defence of the past wrongs is dishonesty. Honesty is the best policy; and, honesty lies in admitting the good, the bad and the ugly of the past.

Truth is a prerequisite for reconciliation. Admission of, contrition over, and wherever possible, redressal of what happened in the past is key to reconciliation.

Act 42 of 1991 is a generous law. The Muslims can best reciprocate this generosity by adhering to the Quranic morality in this regard.

According to al-Baladhuri’s 9th century historical work, Futuh al-Buldan, Umayyad ruler Al-Walid ibn Abd al-Malik (705-15 CE6) had annexed a church’s land to a mosque in Damascus. When Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz (717-20 CE) became the caliph, he demolished that portion of the mosque and returned the property to the church.

 

Ibn Khaldun Bharati is a student of Islam and looks at Islamic history from an Indian perspective. He tweets at @IbnKhaldunIndic. Views are personal.

 

sauce: 

https://theprint.in/opinion/should-indian-muslims-cling-on-to-a-non-mosque-gyanvapi-is-a-living-monument-of-past-wrongs/958900/

[nevada]

IMO it is highly unproductive to dig up centuries old places of worship. God is everywhere (for believers) and doesn't need to be liberated from under any building. 

[Prakat]

14 minutes ago, nevada said:

IMO it is highly unproductive to dig up centuries old places of worship. God is everywhere (for believers) and doesn't need to be liberated from under any building. 

 

Everything happens for a reason....

[ash]

9 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

Ashfaq / Ashraf / Ashrafullah     - whatever your real name is.....democracy is also there to correct historical wrongs that have been done with the majority.

lol. RW tactics is just to assume what the other person’s ideology is and attack them, instead of arguing with facts.

 

Marxist, LTTE sympathisers and now apparently I am a Muslim. Lol. 
 

You can quote quoran and abuse it as much as you want, I am an atheist so I would enjoy it. But I also have the common sense to understand that I can dig deep into Hindu literature and find the same kind of problematic statements. I consider all Holy Books be it Vedas or Bible or Quoran as same. A bunch of guidelines written by men 1000s of years ago to suit their time, which mankind is foolish enough to follow even now. 

[rangeelaraja]

1 hour ago, ash said:

lol. RW tactics is just to assume what the other person’s ideology is and attack them, instead of arguing with facts.

 

Marxist, LTTE sympathisers and now apparently I am a Muslim. Lol. 
 

You can quote quoran and abuse it as much as you want, I am an atheist so I would enjoy it. But I also have the common sense to understand that I can dig deep into Hindu literature and find the same kind of problematic statements. I consider all Holy Books be it Vedas or Bible or Quoran as same. A bunch of guidelines written by men 1000s of years ago to suit their time, which mankind is foolish enough to follow even now. 

 

 

Where have I " abused"  the quran. ? I have only quoted verses that discriminate against non-muslims and talk all sorts of nasty things about them.

 

Does that sound like an " abuse" to you, fruitcake ?

[ash]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Where have I " abused"  the quran. ? I have only quoted verses that discriminate against non-muslims and talk all sorts of nasty things about them.

 

Does that sound like an " abuse" to you, fruitcake ?

Uncle- the point is , I can also quote similar verses from Hindu scriptures. Quran or Bible or Veda , I am not foolish enough to analyse some old text written by some madmen and live my life according to that.

[Pollack]

On 5/19/2022 at 10:35 AM, ash said:

Lol. Casteism did not magically disappear after 1947. There are anti casteist laws because it is still a menace. Official NCRB site data is almost 50k caste crimes every year.   But is Islamic occupation still happening? Are we under attack from Mughals again? How many “Holy sites” are occupied after independence? 
 

if you are going to use “whataboutery” and try to twist the argument, at least come up with a decent comparison 

 

 

The idea of reservation was not based on socio-economic backwardness only. Infact what separates reservations from other schemes meant to uplift people economically is to undo the wrongs of history. It is a way to correct injustice done to lower castes. If clean state from 1947 then no place for reservations. There are plenty of other schemes to cover economic backwardness.

[raki05]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:06 PM, ash said:

More proof that travelling does not really improve intelligence. Maybe time to revisit facts 

 

1) No Indian Empire has ruled the entire subcontinent. India was never under one rule 

2) No proof in Tamil literature about Bharat, India or Akhanda or whatever.

3) No proof whatsoever in any South Indian literature about a United Hindu population across the country.

 

Bring back facts, or keep languishing in Bigotry and Ignorance.

Sadly you have to spent your entire life whinning and crying while listening to Hanuman chalisa and Ramayana in India . Looks like your family trolled you badly in childhood while they sent you in a school where havan and ardhana were performed everyday . Being a Hindu even I never went to such schools. But all the best TN will always be proudest state of India and never associate itself with any other neighbouring countries which you might be wishing every second Ashraful.

[ash]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

Sadly you have to spent your entire life whinning and crying while listening to Hanuman chalisa and Ramayana in India . Looks like your family trolled you badly in childhood while they sent you in a school where havan and ardhana were performed everyday . Being a Hindu even I never went to such schools. But all the best TN will always be proudest state of India and never associate itself with any other neighbouring countries which you might be wishing every second Ashraful.

Lol. Marxist, LTTE sympathiser, Muslim and now apparently a separatist. What else is remaining? 

 

you need to read more and get better at arguing Raki Sawant. RW uncles need a crash course in history it seems.

[raki05]

3 minutes ago, ash said:

Lol. Marxist, LTTE sympathiser, Muslim and now apparently a separatist. What else is remaining? 

 

you need to read more and get better at arguing Raki Sawant. RW uncles need a crash course in history it seems.

Crash course from libus , converted and pissfuls...

[Lone Wolf]

23 hours ago, Prakat said:

 

Everything happens for a reason....

If u look at Paxtan it's HDI resembles more or less UP Bihar & even its richest state Paxtani Punjab is poorer than most of our light green HDI states. 

The map you have shown includes PoK as well which is one of the worst HDI places in South Asia. 

I suggest u post a entire subcontinent map to properly compare. ..  @sandeep bro Idk why I have a restriction to upload a file..  Very small limit. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Lone Wolf

[R!TTER]

On 5/18/2022 at 10:52 AM, ash said:

What is the point of forming a democracy and constitution, if we keep bringing up ancient history? 15th August 1947 should be considered as a clean slate. 

Well so long as we have Pakistan there will never be a clean slate! Having said that Indians in India (be it Muslims/Parsis/Sikhs/Jain ) are not our enemy 

 

The biggest enemy within is corruption & greedy MFers willing to sell their proverbial wives/daughters for a little bit of money!

[rkt.india]

On 5/19/2022 at 10:08 PM, ash said:

In India , Language unites people more than Religion. A Tamil or Malayalam Hindu would definitely feel closer to a Tamil/Malayalam Christian/Muslim than a UP or Bihar Hindu. Food, Pop culture, Locality etc etc plays a part. 

 

If talking about what's the most common thing most people celebrate culturally all over India than go nowhere but Tirupati Balaji aka God Vishnu Aka Shri Krishna aka Laddoo Gopal. The most famous temple of Shri Krishna is Tirupati and Shri Krishna Janmashtami is one of the biggest festival in the north, west, central India.

[coffee_rules]

On 5/20/2022 at 1:50 AM, ash said:

Nope, none of the sangam era Tamil literature acknowledges the Idea of Bharath. Did they know about other parts of the subcontinent? Sure , a landmass not separated by Sea would obviously have trade routes and travellers but the literature always mentions them like other countries and not part of their kingdom. 
 

கொங்கணர் கலிங்கர் கொடுங்கரு நாடர்
பங்களர் கங்கர் பல்வேற் கட்டியர்
வடவா ரியரொடு வண்டமிழ் மயக்கத்துன்
கடமலை வேட்டமென் கட்புலம் பிரியாது

-காட்சிக் காதை, சிலப்பதிகாரம்

 

 Konkani people (Konganar), Kannadigas (Karunadar), Odiyas (Kalingar), Bengalis (Bangalar) and northern India (vada Aryar).

Idiocy of the highest order. This is what will happen if you don’t read diverse material and stick to dumeel  nitwits from Periyar to .

 

Sangam literature totally accepts Vedic culture, Vedic gods and rituals. The Caldwellputras have tried to rewrite Sangam removing any Vedic references. Read Prof Nagaswamy and other experts of Samgam literature. 
 

https://www.indica.today/quick-reads/dr-nagaswamy-an-epigraphist-par-excellence/

 

Been missing on IICF for long 

Edited May 24, 2022 by coffee_rules