Gyanvapi mosque in Kashi - whats going on?

[coffee_rules]

Mods, please move all AIT discussion to this thread. It is proliferating all discussion on the OP

 

 

 

[coffee_rules]

 

[ash]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867419309675

 

There are various studies that are kept and not just one established one. Also, there is a recent study that r1a1 dna originated from India. 
 

 

Now that it is established IVC skeleton did not have any R1A gene, the next spin from RW is that R1A is Indian origin. But if that’s the case, then why is the gene missing from the IVC skeleton and why is the IVC script not the same as Indo Aryan script like Sanskrit. 
 

the 1st comment in your Reddit link clearly exposes the spin. Check your sources properly 

[coffee_rules]

2 minutes ago, ash said:

Now that it is established IVC skeleton did not have any R1A gene, the next spin from RW is that R1A is Indian origin. But if that’s the case, then why is the gene missing from the IVC skeleton and why is the IVC script not the same as Indo Aryan script like Sanskrit. 
 

the 1st comment in your Reddit link clearly exposes the spin. Check your sources properly 

There is nothing like Indo-Aryan script. The antiquity of Sanskrit is so ancient, it was before paper, taaLe leaves were used for manuscripts. Devnagari  script is very recent, before that Brahmi, regional scripts of Kannada, Tamil have been used to inscribe in Sanskrit. For a few thousand years, Sanskrit was used in oral communication and chants only. 
 

17% of r1a found in Indians, these are not RW facts, well researched papers show r1a original from SE Asia and India. You believe one-sided journalistic articles as scientific evidence 

 

You basis of all of genetic evidence of IVC based on one skeleton. Shows that more research is needed and tech advancement. IVC script is still indecipherable, linking it to Dravidian language is a wet dream of dumeels. 
 

Migration of humans is not something that is a great discovery. Trade routes and movement also causes genetic mix. There is no language gene to prove Samskruta originated in Steppe

[ash]

48 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

There is nothing like Indo-Aryan script. The antiquity of Sanskrit is so ancient, it was before paper, taaLe leaves were used for manuscripts.

 

R1A found in Indians, from the steppe nomads. Glad you accepted it.
 

You can ignore all the preliminary discovery connecting the Indus script to Tamil Brahmi , it is your wish to keep your head stuck in sand. But even if you search there is nothing connecting the Indus script to Sanskrit  So ancient script but not used in IVC? lol 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by ash

[rkt.india]

32 minutes ago, ash said:

 

R1A found in Indians, from the steppe nomads. Glad you accepted it.
 

You can ignore all the preliminary discovery connecting the Indus script to Tamil Brahmi , it is your wish to keep your head stuck in sand. But even if you search there is nothing connecting the Indus script to Sanskrit  So ancient script but not used in IVC? lol 

 

So who used IVC script? No one as far as we know. There is still no proof that people came from outside.

[rkt.india]

41 minutes ago, ash said:

 

R1A found in Indians, from the steppe nomads. Glad you accepted it.
 

You can ignore all the preliminary discovery connecting the Indus script to Tamil Brahmi , it is your wish to keep your head stuck in sand. But even if you search there is nothing connecting the Indus script to Sanskrit  So ancient script but not used in IVC? lol 

 

Most of the south Asians are descendants of Harappan people. Ivc and Harappan was a big civilization. It's very much possible when indus changed it's route or dried and IVC people disappeared. People from other places from the same civilization started Vedic culture.

[ash]

13 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

People from other places from the same civilization started Vedic culture

This is the only point that is debatable. If this is the case then R1 A gene should have been there in the skeleton. 
 

But I agree to your other point that there are no more pure Aryan/Dravidian now. Everyone in India would have the Harappan gene, Steele R1A gene along with other mix. This is just a counter argument for the fanatics who claim to be “True Indians” and reclaim “Lost glory” of Bharath. The concept of “True Indian” is a myth, no one can claim that.

[rkt.india]

5 minutes ago, ash said:

This is the only point that is debatable. If this is the case then R1 A gene should have been there in the skeleton. 
 

But I agree to your other point that there are no more pure Aryan/Dravidian now. Everyone in India would have the Harappan gene, Steele R1A gene along with other mix. This is just a counter argument for the fanatics who claim to be “True Indians” and reclaim “Lost glory” of Bharath. The concept of “True Indian” is a myth, no one can claim that.

The biggest moot point is the lack of evidence of people coming to India from outside. Rakhigarhi in Hisar is dated 4500 years old and it's nowhere near close to actual Indus valley. There aren't many known civilization that old from where people could come in.

[ash]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

The biggest moot point is the lack of evidence of people coming to India from outside. Rakhigarhi in Hisar is dated 4500 years old and it's nowhere near close to actual Indus valley. There aren't many known civilization that old from where people could come in.

As I said, there is archeological evidence, DNA evidence, Linguistic evidence for People coming into India. Even the AASI gene is from Africa. But let’s stop here, no point in arguing further. If you think Homo sapient originated from India, then go ahead. 

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, ash said:

 

R1A found in Indians, from the steppe nomads. Glad you accepted it.
 

You can ignore all the preliminary discovery connecting the Indus script to Tamil Brahmi , it is your wish to keep your head stuck in sand. But even if you search there is nothing connecting the Indus script to Sanskrit  So ancient script but not used in IVC? lol 

 

Tamil Brahmi is a pipe dream, keep smoking it. There is no connection to IVC script to Samskruta. Nobody has broken the IVC script yet, but the cultural continuation from IVC to Vedic constructs is steadily ignored by Western indologists and Marxist historians. Pashupati depicted in IVC is our Shiva. You chose to ignore it is your becoming. IVC or SSVC is either parallel to Vedic civilization or both were influenced by each other. And there is no Samskruta genes connecting to Steppe. 
 

 But there is connection of Samskruta to Brahmi, Pali and Prakrit. 

[ash]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

but the cultural continuation from IVC to Vedic constructs is steadily ignored by Western indologists and Marxist historians.

Point 1 : Who were IVC people? Dravidians ?? Maybe, cause the Keezhadi excavation scripts somewhat match the IVC scripts. The skeleton DNA closely matches the Irular tribe in Nilgiris. As I said, we have preliminary Linguistic and DNA evidence to connect IVC to south. But definitely not Vedic Aryans. No Linguistic or DNA connection. 
 

Point 2 : IVC and Vedic parallel? No, clearly defined by the lack of R1A gene in IVC skeleton. And no linguist connection between Sanskrit and IVC script. No temples or any ritualistic finding in archeological surveys.

 

This might change if we find any Skeleton with R1A gene in India dating before the IVC period. Maybe then we can discuss if there were two parallel tribes, Aryans and IVC in Inda at the same time. But with the current evidence it is very clear Aryans came after IVC. 
 

Science does not lie. If you manage to find R1A gene in India dating back to IVC period, I am happy to reconsider. Please don’t bring religious texts and other hearsay like “Sanskrit was spoken for millions of years” as argument points. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by ash

[coffee_rules]

Ashwaisi baba saying same things on the thread

 

 

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, ash said:

Point 1 : Who were IVC people? Dravidians ?? Maybe, cause the Keezhadi excavation scripts somewhat match the IVC scripts.

 

 

Doesn’t prove any migration theory. As you think references to rest of Bharat in Sangam is because of trade, this explains influencing due to trade. The symbols are seals of owners of the object  in a proto language. 

2 hours ago, ash said:

 

 

The skeleton DNA closely matches the Irular tribe in Nilgiris. As I said, we have preliminary Linguistic and DNA evidence to connect IVC to south. But definitely not Vedic Aryans. No Linguistic or DNA connection. 

 

Sangam literature is so antiquated and has references to Vedic culture, rituals and class system , do you deny that ? Also, IVC had a rigorous class system as well with priests revered a lot. Did Aryans from Steppe teach them caste system too?

 

 

2 hours ago, ash said:

Point 2 : IVC and Vedic parallel? No, clearly defined by the lack of R1A gene in IVC skeleton.

You base your theory on one skeleton found? There are many researchers who believe R1a originated from Asia, movement was westward from India. 
Also, you ignore the deals of Pashupati (Shiva), tree worship and Yogic postures in IVC seals to link to Vedic civilization. There are many more, like fire alters to perform Yagna  and rigid class system which is found in Vedic cultures as well. 

2 hours ago, ash said:

 

And no linguist connection between Sanskrit and IVC script. No temples or any ritualistic finding in archeological surveys.

Archeology is very rare to find and that is fairly recent. A 4.5 m dig this s needed to get to a few 1000 years. For as old as 5000 yrs old, dig has to be deport. Most of the IVC sites are in the later Harappan. A lot of culture, house architecture and farming is still prevalent in the region that is found in IVC excavations. How do you explain that ?

 

2 hours ago, ash said:

 

This might change if we find any Skeleton with R1A gene in India dating before the IVC period. Maybe then we can discuss if there were two parallel tribes, Aryans and IVC in Inda at the same time. But with the current evidence it is very clear Aryans came after IVC. 
 

 

There is no Aryan skeleton found in Steppe or any archeological evidence found in Central Asia that links to Vedas and Rituals or even Sanskrit. Only evidence is linguistic where there are are common words. You concoct a wild story of nomads invading peaceful tribes that n IVC based on a linguistic hunch. It was then changed to Steppe Pastorals who came peacefully and settled down alongside IVC survivors and imposed their culture. For Vedas and complex grammar to develop, it takes 1000s of years, not a few 100 years after IVC. Keep your bias until more is unearthed 

2 hours ago, ash said:

 

 

Science does not lie. If you manage to find R1A gene in India dating back to IVC period, I am happy to reconsider. Please don’t bring religious texts and other hearsay like “Sanskrit was spoken for millions of years” as argument points. 

R1a is statistically postulated and not 100% accurate science like physics. 1000s of research papers are published refuting each other, just like archeology. There are numerous fields like oceanography,, sea level history,  archeo-astronomical references in Vedas to map to NASA  software that plots movements of planets, precision of equinox and other evidences to Sanskrit and Vedic antiquity. Keep your kumarikandam halcinations in your world.

[ash]

6 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

There are numerous fields like oceanography,, sea level history,  archeo-astronomical references in Vedas to map to NASA  software that plots movements of planets, precision of equinox and other evidences to Sanskrit and Vedic antiquity

We have spoken about this a lot. I have given the existing SCIENTIFIC evidence. I agree that things may change in future. So if you find

 

Proof of IVC and Vedic in Parallel:

 Any Sanskrit text in India carbon dated to the IVC period or before 

Any skeleton with the R1A gene in India dated to IVC period or before

 

Proof that IVC was vedic: 

Any linguistic evidence connecting IVC script to Sanskrit 

Any skeleton in IVC ruins with R1A gene

 

If you find any one of the above four, we can then continue our argument. 

[rkt.india]

13 hours ago, ash said:

As I said, there is archeological evidence, DNA evidence, Linguistic evidence for People coming into India. Even the AASI gene is from Africa. But let’s stop here, no point in arguing further. If you think Homo sapient originated from India, then go ahead. 

Homo sapiens originated from Africa or wherever that's not point. Point what they left and what they created at the places where they moved. There is no evidence of what Aryans left at the places they left. You think nomads came to India and created Sanskrit and wrote Vedas. 

[Alam_dar]

Deleted

Edited May 29, 2022 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:14 PM, rkt.india said:

I have one doubt @ash. If Tamil culture existed before Sanskrit then when did Aryans invade and sent Dravidians to South India. 

 

Many cultures existed in North India and South India before Sanskrit came (along with Aryans who came to India only about 4000 years ago). 

 

Dravidians were one race, just like Aryans were one race. 

 

Dravidians, who were pushed to the South, may have brought their own culture and language from the North, or they may have integrated into the local cultures. 

 

[Alam_dar]

Deleted

Edited May 29, 2022 by Alam_dar

[rkt.india]

31 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Many cultures existed in North India and South India before Sanskrit came (along with Aryans who came to India only about 4000 years ago). 

 

Dravidians were one race, just like Aryans were one race. 

 

Dravidians, who were pushed to the South, may have brought their own culture and language from the North, or they may have integrated into the local cultures. 

 

Do you realise Saraswati river disappeared 4000 years ago which is mentioned in Vedas. So Vedas existed 4000 years back too same as Indus Valley civilization.