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Adamant

Is this the end of India's legacy of producing the best LOI batting lineups in the world.

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

1.  The OP has quoted ODI centuries and we are playing a T20I series.

 

T20Is should have its own specialists, who may or may not be good in ODIs 

 

2. In T20Is we need players with high SR and good enough average for T20Is. We need need impact players who can hit under pressure. Century scoring ability is not that important here.

 

3.  Most of these batters are at the beggining of their LOI careers and how van we compare their number of centuries with retired veterans with careers spanning 15 to 24 years  !!

I am talking about the standards of batting in LOIs (this includes both t20s and Odis.) 

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25 minutes ago, Vijy said:

yes, diff ball games. but I don't see any promising batters in any format who will set the game alight. lots of promise and talent for sure, but not much delivery. to take the example of Tests (not T20s), gill has underperformed, shaw has poor fitness and consistency, sarfaraz doesn't get a chance, sundar is perennially injured, and so on. bunch of underperformers. the last time the batting was this bad was 1970s, not even 1980s and 1990s.

 

 

This is happening because juggling with 3 different formats is extremely tough for players.

 

It's like trying to cover oneself fully with a small blanket. You cover your face and your toes get exposed and so on. 

 

Let's take the case of Rahul. He was thought to be an orthodox test batsmen who lacked the natural hitting abity in LOIs. Then he reinvented his hitting game in an IPL but his test match technique deteriorated as a result. Finally, in his late 20s, he seems to have struck a balance BUT the moment his reflexes start to slow down a bit after 32 or 33, he might again have issues. 

 

And it won't be easy to have separate players for separate formats. Test specialists who miss out on the IPL will feel that they are missing out on the big money ... the T20 specialists will always lack pedigree, longevity and recognition ... and ODIs are anyway losing relevance. 

 

There is no easy solution to this.

 

Among U30 batters ....

Rahul

Gill

Pant

Washington 

Dhull ( based on potential )

 

... are the t batters who may combine pedigree with LOI skills ... and we have to bank on atleast 3 of them to come good  in each format (  Shaw has developed both short ball problems as well as problems against the quick indipper, and it is difficult to consider him in this list till the time HD sorts out these issues )

 

 

 

 

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Just now, express bowling said:

 

 

This is happening because juggling with 3 different formats is extremely tough for players.

 

It's like trying to cover oneself fully with a small blanket. You cover your face and your toes get exposed and so on. 

 

Let's take the case of Rahul. He was thought to be an orthodox test batsmen who lacked the natural hitting abity in LOIs. Then he reinvented his hitting game in an IPL but his test match technique deteriorated as a result. Finally, in his late 20s, he seems to have struck a balance BUT the moment his reflexes start to slow down a bit after 32 or 33, he might again have issues. 

 

And it won't be easy to have separate players for separate formats. Test specialists who miss out on the IPL will feel that they are missing out on the big money ... the T20 specialists will always lack pedigree, longevity and recognition ... and ODIs are anyway losing relevance. 

 

There is no easy solution to this.

 

Among U30 batters ....

Rahul

Gill

Pant

Washington 

Dhull ( based on potential )

 

... are the t batters who may combine pedigree with LOI skills ... and we have to bank on atleast 3 of them to come good  in each format (  Shaw has developed both short ball problems as well as problems against the quick indipper, and it is difficult to consider him in this list till the time HD sorts out these issues )

 

 

 

 

it may be good if ODIs actually die out altogether. I actually remember the days when the format was new, and how it came to prominence post-packer. nowadays, it seems stripped of any context and most players seem to be going through the motions.

 

if only T20s and tests survive, these 2 formats will be so distinctive that most teams can switch to having specialist players and managing workloads better.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

In ODIs, we are still playing  the older batters in most slots. 

 

So the issue, if any, is in T20Is.

Cool. 

Lets wait for a year, you will run out of  excuses in some time. 

 

Its very easy to spot a great batsman, we don't have one. 

 

You remember our middle order was bad when our top3 were great, still we used to win matches. 

 

Why is that not happening now? 

Why are our youngsters dependent on seniors.. 

Edited by Adamant
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6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

it may be good if ODIs actually die out altogether. I actually remember the days when the format was new, and how it came to prominence post-packer. nowadays, it seems stripped of any context and most players seem to be going through the motions.

 

if only T20s and tests survive, these 2 formats will be so distinctive that most teams can switch to having specialist players and managing workloads better.

 

 

Thing is, most big names in international cricket don't take T20s seriously and look at it as an avenue for earning quick bucks via T20 leagues. And the format itself is conducive to creating this mindset too. 

 

It is unlikely that international T20s, including its World Cup, will be big as a result of this attitude ( while T20 leagues will get bigger and gain more importance )

 

ODIs are basically surviving as a result of this ... because 50 over World Cups still have s lot of pedigree and importance. ( while bilateral ODIs are becoming like Mithunda's Hindi movies at his Age 55+  in terms of general interest or importance )

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10 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Cool. 

Lets wait for a year, you will run out of  excuses in some time. 

 

Its very easy to spot a great batsman, we don't have one. 

 

You remember our middle order was bad when our top3 were great, still we used to win matches. 

 

Why is that not happening now? 

Why are our youngsters dependent on seniors.. 

 

 

It is not a question of excuse as I am not happy with our young batters either.

 

Infact, the above is an understatement as I want pretty high standards from them.

 

But this point has to be put forward in a more relevant way rather than quoting career centuries of veteran retired cricketers or those nearing retirement. 

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Again some people have no clue. To play 50 plus odis you need to show you have talent. Pandya is playing for more than 7 years of international cricket. His bowling stinks for international cricket. Can he bat effectively at number 5 and compensate for his bowling is still up in the air.How many more matches does he need to showcase his so called talent. This is not fricking IPL where he can coatails of other imported players and act as if he is the reason for the his teams winning matches.

 

With big three in form you were winning most  bilateral series home and away and getting to semis of all tournaments barring last t20 world cup.Do we have  talented players now to replace them?

 

Ishan and co are not the solution. 

Edited by putrevus
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We need 3 separate specialist teams and coaches for T20 , ODI and Test otherwise we will have an average teams with average results.

 

But I don’t see this happening because of IPL, It has become a gateway to team India and everyone wants to get an IPL gig to get a foot in the door and then want to hold on to their places in all three formats. 

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3 minutes ago, Vickydev said:

We have always been a mediocre T20 side, only a God mode Kohli made us somewhat relevant. Now that he is finished we are back to square one. No surprises here


In terms of T20 WCs, Ind won one without a Kohli … and will probably win another after he (and maybe Rohit) retires :dontknow:

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5 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

pehle merko ye batao how is it even an argument on 100s when these guys havent even played 50 odis mostly n ur comparing them to guys who have played some 300 ODI 

ye kaisa comparison hai 


This thread could be an indirect (and potentially desperate) attempt to discuss Kohli esp. by highlighting meaningless stats

 

The thread is started at a time when India is giving opportunities to new folks (and when Kohli’s place is in question and when not many are even thinking if Kohli should be playing despite the losses. He was given opportunities in multiple world cups).


If Kohli does well, he will automatically be discussed  :dontknow: 
 

Edited by zen
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2 hours ago, zen said:


In terms of T20 WCs, Ind won one without a Kohli … and will probably win another after he (and maybe Rohit) retires :dontknow:

That T20 win was 15 years ago when everyone was coming to terms with the new format. Hardly any team had played double figure international T20 games going into the tournament. Our results post that in the corresponding 3 championships is clear to see. Mediocre

 

And about the future, I never commented on it. Let us get there then we can talk about it, right now we don't have the personnel to compete. What I have seen in international T20s is we are an avg side at best

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23 hours ago, Adamant said:

From the start of the millennium India has produced one of the best LOI batting lineups, filled with ATG batsman(Sachin, Rohit, kohli, Dhoni), great finishers(Dhoni,Raina,Kohli) and some borderline great batsman( Yuvi, Raina, Sehwag, Ganguly, Gambhir).
The current Indian team (with Rohit and Kohli in decline mode) does'nt look even a bit like our batting lineup of the past two decades.

There was a time when we fielded this lineup -No. of centuries in bracket
1. Sachin (49)
2.Sehwag (15)
3.Dravid (12)
4.Ganguly (22)
5.Yuvraj (14)
6. Kaif/Dhoni (10)
7. I Pathan

All of them were match winners and had the ability to win a match on their own

Then we transitioned into

1. Sehwag (15)
2. Gambhir (11)
3.Kohli (43)
4.Yuvraj (14)
5.Raina (5)
6.Dhoni (10)
7. Y Pathan (2)
 

All of them were technically great and were renowned match winners.

Then came:
1. Dhawan (17)
2. Rohit (29)
3.Kohli (43)
4.Rahane (3)
5.Raina (5)
6.Dhoni (10)
7.Nodody

Now we are suddenly going towards an era where our entire crop of young players don't have even a single hundred, many of them show promise but they are so inconsistent that our team is always fragile. 

Just imagine the team after Kohli and Rohit are done.
It could be the first time in Indian ODI history where in a lineup not even a single player has a century, this definitely tells us all we need to know about the emerging brand of our youngsters who ate talented but have the temperament and concentration ability of a fly.
I think Ipl is a big factor behind all this, the younger players are not as hungry as they used to be as IPL has already made them more popular than the likes of Pujara, Vihari,Vijay, Saha who have toiled a lot in the premier format.

Indian Cricket needs new Heroes.

When you see people hyping up players like Pandya ATG hardly play international.6 year since his debut I am not sure if for a single year he played consistently and sincerely for India and based on ipl he has been anointed ATG. Some moron hyped him and claimed he is great ar than Kapil. Irrespective of Kohli failing now due to loss of form he never compromised on international and played like a real king across format and even in ipl his number of runs record within a season is unbreakable. These new batch are full of sloggers and that too rubbish sloggers no one is in the league of Miller or Maxwell. So basically most of them are good for nothing. Only hope is Gill if he somehow he sort out his front foot game.

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12 hours ago, Vickydev said:

That T20 win was 15 years ago when everyone was coming to terms with the new format. Hardly any team had played double figure international T20 games going into the tournament. Our results post that in the corresponding 3 championships is clear to see. Mediocre

 

And about the future, I never commented on it. Let us get there then we can talk about it, right now we don't have the personnel to compete. What I have seen in international T20s is we are an avg side at best

 

Your original point is that India has been a mediocre T20 side only saved by Kohli, however Ind won the 2007 WC without Kohli, which is a great achievement much like how WI won the first ODI WC in 1975 (does not matter how many ODIs were played earlier as top teams are starting at the similar point).  WI has won two T20 WCs, which is what matters, not how it looks on paper, or did in bilaterals (where its key players do not even play most of the time), etc. 

 

T20 is a format where 2-3 batsmen & 2-3 bowlers in form can make a difference. To win tournaments, you do not need to be the best side. In fact, Ind has been seen as a favorite in many events ... Bilaterals is not the best way to judge teams. 

 

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I rate Sachin hardcore fanboys as the worst group of cricket fans. Many of these guys have moved to supporting Rohit (and to write against Kohli, who competes with Sachin). 

 

Now it appears as if Kohli fanboys are beginning to show their colors as well. Many have been going around writing against other players lately. These guys also tend to write against IPL where Kohli with RCB have not won anything (therefore seek solace in bilaterals) :hmm:

 

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43 minutes ago, zen said:

I rate Sachin hardcore fanboys as the worst group of cricket fans. Many of these guys have moved to supporting Rohit (and to write against Kohli, who competes with Sachin). 

 

Now it appears as if Kohli fanboys are beginning to show their colors as well. Many have been going around writing against other players lately. These guys also tend to write against IPL where Kohli with RCB have not won anything (therefore seek solace in bilaterals) :hmm:

 

Conclusion- they all are Indian cricket fans with their own set of favouritism.

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