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What happened to the part timer?

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12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Ishant, Umesh both never bowled to field in LOI games for starters.  

 

Ishant played most of his LOI when he had wrist issue and his control was haywire...................same ishant bowled so well in CB series . Plus he lacked death bowling skills

 

Umesh lacks control , its not that he gains brains when he plays with SG ball and looses when he has kookabura or Duke in hand. He just doesnt have that control and he hasnt worked on it as well. About spraying **** in between its basically a problem that even sreesath had. To explain in terms of taking a batsman example like Samson has more range of shots then a iyer so he ends up trying to much similalry with both sree n umesh had great outswing but they always had this temptation to swing it from leg stump which often led them drift down the leg. Everyone knows where to bowl but its lack of control or temptations . Umesh also hasnt worked hard enough on developing his skills add to that he didnt play around the world in any leagues or county. He has bowled some great yorkers at times but he doesnt have the consistency to execute it 

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29 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Ishant played most of his LOI when he had wrist issue and his control was haywire...................same ishant bowled so well in CB series . Plus he lacked death bowling skills

 

Umesh lacks control , its not that he gains brains when he plays with SG ball and looses when he has kookabura or Duke in hand. He just doesnt have that control and he hasnt worked on it as well. About spraying **** in between its basically a problem that even sreesath had. To explain in terms of taking a batsman example like Samson has more range of shots then a iyer so he ends up trying to much similalry with both sree n umesh had great outswing but they always had this temptation to swing it from leg stump which often led them drift down the leg. Everyone knows where to bowl but its lack of control or temptations . Umesh also hasnt worked hard enough on developing his skills add to that he didnt play around the world in any leagues or county. He has bowled some great yorkers at times but he doesnt have the consistency to execute it 

 

Having an off side field set and drifting repeatedly on to pads is brainless something we did repeatedly in world T20 against Pakistan. Rizwan and Babar milked at will. They cannot hide under "lack of control" excuse. Part timers can do the same.  Part timers are not here to replace them. They are there to complement them. Maxwell is not exactly Muralitharan. He just predicts batsmen movement and pitch. Few times can go for runs. That is part and parcel. So can specialist spinner. Maxwell most definitely is not as good as Yuvraj as a spinner. Yuvraj was a master of using speed variation.  Maxwell is at best Raina level.  Livingstone is a total journeyman as a bowler. Bowls leg spin to righties, off spin to lefties. Not proficient in either of the skills. He at times even finishes his quota. We are looking for such bowlers. Not someone like Murali/Warne. We don't have anyone who even attempts to bowl. Shreyas Iyer bowls leggies. For some reason i rarely see him try to work on it.

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14 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Having an off side field set and drifting repeatedly on to pads is brainless something we did repeatedly in world T20 against Pakistan. Rizwan and Babar milked at will. They cannot hide under "lack of control" excuse. Part timers can do the same.  Part timers are not here to replace them. They are there to complement them. Maxwell is not exactly Muralitharan. He just predicts batsmen movement and pitch. Few times can go for runs. That is part and parcel. So can specialist spinner. Maxwell most definitely is not as good as Yuvraj as a spinner. Yuvraj was a master of using speed variation.  Maxwell is at best Raina level.  Livingstone is a total journeyman as a bowler. Bowls leg spin to righties, off spin to lefties. Not proficient in either of the skills. He at times even finishes his quota. We are looking for such bowlers. Not someone like Murali/Warne. We don't have anyone who even attempts to bowl. Shreyas Iyer bowls leggies. For some reason i rarely see him try to work on it.

Yes, our team is anomalous in this respect in most formats. A lot of teams have some part-timers even to this day as regulars in their int'l squads. Eng have Root (Tests), Lawrence (Tests), Livingstone (ODIs/T20s); SA have Markram (all formats); NZ had Kane the chucker (all formats), Philips (T20s); WI have Brathwaite (Tests), and so on...

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1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Having an off side field set and drifting repeatedly on to pads is brainless something we did repeatedly in world T20 against Pakistan. Rizwan and Babar milked at will. They cannot hide under "lack of control" excuse. Part timers can do the same.  Part timers are not here to replace them.

 

OBv thats lack of control or poor plan (incase of Rizwan which lengths also have been biggest downfall of shami in t20s so it was nothing unexpected)

For a layman its easy to say lack of control is a excuse but it isnt.......control is not easy. Anyone who is brainless wont even reach this level , batsman in domesic will hit u all day long if u dnt have brains 

 

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

They are there to complement them. Maxwell is not exactly Muralitharan. He just predicts batsmen movement and pitch. Few times can go for runs. That is part and parcel. So can specialist spinner. Maxwell most definitely is not as good as Yuvraj as a spinner. Yuvraj was a master of using speed variation.  Maxwell is at best Raina level.  Livingstone is a total journeyman as a bowler. Bowls leg spin to righties, off spin to lefties. Not proficient in either of the skills. He at times even finishes his quota. We are looking for such bowlers. Not someone like Murali/Warne. We don't have anyone who even attempts to bowl. Shreyas Iyer bowls leggies. For some reason i rarely see him try to work on it.

 

Maxwell darts with good control thats what matters- Murali banke krna kya hai usko, uska kaam 6th bowler ka hai. Raina also darted with great control which is why dhoni used him more then yuvi post rule change. Not to forget both can ball wkt to wkt 

Aaj raina maxi type darting his chahiye..............flighting the ball isnt safe anymore

Livingstone has a great skill set .......we ll be lucky if someone even can bowl like that. If he finishes his quote nothing like it specially when they have so many bowling options

Iyer flights the ball, he ll deposited in stands. on that will lack control as he doesnt bowl regulalry and lacks variety too

 

U need vairety or speed if u wanna be a part timer today . Loopy ones aint gonna work most days as boundaries are getting shorter n bats are getting bigger and on top of that no extra protection n 2 new balls . 

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even though the thread deals with LOIs, one can/must also ask the question of why part-timers are missing in Indian test team. Yes, we are playing 5-bowler attack, which is a big plus. with that said, there could be injuries or there could be some tracks where 6th bowler is rendered important. moreover, if one had 2 good part-time bowlers, one can play 4 bowler attack on bowling friendly pitches and thereby strengthen batting.

 

many teams have/had part-timers even in tests: brathwaite for WI; root, lawrence (even jennings) for Eng; chucker Kane for NZ; labuschagne for Oz; and so on

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1 hour ago, Vijy said:

even though the thread deals with LOIs, one can/must also ask the question of why part-timers are missing in Indian test team. Yes, we are playing 5-bowler attack, which is a big plus. with that said, there could be injuries or there could be some tracks where 6th bowler is rendered important. moreover, if one had 2 good part-time bowlers, one can play 4 bowler attack on bowling friendly pitches and thereby strengthen batting.

 

many teams have/had part-timers even in tests: brathwaite for WI; root, lawrence (even jennings) for Eng; chucker Kane for NZ; labuschagne for Oz; and so on

 

Exactly. Rohit sharma told he would support main bowlers with his bowling in Tests lol. He completely stopped bowling in any format in 2014. He even bowled a 7 over spell at Durban. 8 over spell in Windies in the one dayers. Batsmen are not willing to share the extra load.  It will shorten their IPL career due to injury and other things.

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

OBv thats lack of control or poor plan (incase of Rizwan which lengths also have been biggest downfall of shami in t20s so it was nothing unexpected)

For a layman its easy to say lack of control is a excuse but it isnt.......control is not easy. Anyone who is brainless wont even reach this level , batsman in domesic will hit u all day long if u dnt have brains 

 

 

Maxwell darts with good control thats what matters- Murali banke krna kya hai usko, uska kaam 6th bowler ka hai. Raina also darted with great control which is why dhoni used him more then yuvi post rule change. Not to forget both can ball wkt to wkt 

Aaj raina maxi type darting his chahiye..............flighting the ball isnt safe anymore

Livingstone has a great skill set .......we ll be lucky if someone even can bowl like that. If he finishes his quote nothing like it specially when they have so many bowling options

Iyer flights the ball, he ll deposited in stands. on that will lack control as he doesnt bowl regulalry and lacks variety too

 

U need vairety or speed if u wanna be a part timer today . Loopy ones aint gonna work most days as boundaries are getting shorter n bats are getting bigger and on top of that no extra protection n 2 new balls . 

 

These part timers are no different from any part timers in any era. Indian team has been a one dimensional unit for a while in all formats.  Kedar Jadhav was not a regular bowler for his state either. In a short span of time he managed to learn a completely different style of bowling and do okay with that. Tendulkar never had to bowl a single over in cricket to retain his place. He learnt pretty much all kind of deliveries over the course. This is attitude issue. Not rule change.

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29 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Exactly. Rohit sharma told he would support main bowlers with his bowling in Tests lol. He completely stopped bowling in any format in 2014. He even bowled a 7 over spell at Durban. 8 over spell in Windies in the one dayers. Batsmen are not willing to share the extra load.  It will shorten their IPL career due to injury and other things.

I don't take such statements from rohit seriously. I would, however, take his opinion seriously regarding where the best vada pav in Mumbai can be found since he has lot of first-hand experience (ostensibly)

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25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

These part timers are no different from any part timers in any era. Indian team has been a one dimensional unit for a while in all formats.  Kedar Jadhav was not a regular bowler for his state either. In a short span of time he managed to learn a completely different style of bowling and do okay with that. Tendulkar never had to bowl a single over in cricket to retain his place. He learnt pretty much all kind of deliveries over the course. This is attitude issue. Not rule change.

 

 

style is extemely diff, only tendulkar matched them coz he had variety 

Ofcourse its a rule chage- 

 

  • 2 new balls- earlier it was one so the ball use to get soft and such ball turns better. I find it funny when ppl abuse darter.................erre its not easy to turn when the ball doesnt get old much in LOI
  • bigger bats
  • smaller ground
  • now we have 4 fielder outside vs 4 back then 
  • batting skill has become crazy now 
  • Pitches have become tooo flat now. Try a ganugly like 115k bowler now against giants like russell, pollard and all with 4 fielders outside on such pattas . 

 

and how on earth are these part timers same time past one

 

  • Maxwell is a darter - yuvi, sehwag werent 
  • Livingstone bowls both leggie n offie - only tendulkar did 
  • Root can bowl a carrom ball - who in those cud ?? 
  • Jadhav use low arm action - who did that before (dhoni wasnt mad that he asked jadhav to bowl when kohli n rohit cud roll arm over , jadhav offered variety)

 

Variety is key to LOI now , forget part timers l;ife is hard for even finger spinners now 

 

Yes our batsman arent bowling now days which is not a good thing but even if they did they wud have been taken to cleaners with such ordinary bowling.  Huge reason is rule change, Dhoni has spoken about it

 

https://www.sportskeeda.com/cricket/ms-dhoni-yuvraj-singh-bowling-affected-rule-change

 

Tough for Yuvraj to bowl with new rules, says Dhoni

Dhoni believes that the new fielding restrictions introduced by the ICC in late 2012 which mandate only four fielders outside the 30-yard circle have affected the potency of Yuvraj Singh as a genuine match-winner with the ball.

Speaking on the issue, the Ranchi-born cricketer said: "If you see, after the rules change happened, Yuvi didn't bowl a lot. We must admit that once the rule change happened, it did affect his bowling although he is a regular with the ball in T20s.”

Reflecting on the older rules which enabled part-timers to come and roll their arm over and squeeze in a few overs with a steady line, Dhoni further added, "In the pre-field restriction days, Viru, Sachin and Yuvi used to bowl a lot and we depended on them, but they were all part-timers and on good batting tracks, they would find it difficult to bowl well.”

 

 

 

 

U think Dhoni was crazy that he stopped bowling yuvi in ODI yet bowled him in t20s that to in Australia ?

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36 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Exactly. Rohit sharma told he would support main bowlers with his bowling in Tests lol. He completely stopped bowling in any format in 2014. He even bowled a 7 over spell at Durban. 8 over spell in Windies in the one dayers. Batsmen are not willing to share the extra load.  It will shorten their IPL career due to injury and other things.

rohit had a shoulder injury after which he didnt bowl much, even sehwag after his shoulder injury didnt bowl much towards the end fo his career 

Neways his kind of bowling will  be slaughtered 

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

rohit had a shoulder injury after which he didnt bowl much, even sehwag after his shoulder injury didnt bowl much towards the end fo his career 

Neways his kind of bowling will  be slaughtered 

 

In T20 every kind of bowler will be slaughtered with exception like Narine, Rashid, Bumrah.  We are talking about bowling an over or two here and there. Not bowling 4 overs every match. No team is going to give respect to our bowlers just because they are "specialists".  They will turn specialist into part timer. If specific bowler is targeted there is nothing wrong with trying a part timer instead of feeding the same bowler just because he is specialist. 

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Guys like Tendulkar were good enough  to run through line ups on their day. 
 

Ganguly too was a very good medium pacer in suitable conditions. He was a Grandhomme level bowler and a much better bat obviously.

 

Sehwag and Yuvraj have taken multiple 5frs.

 

These days guys like Pandya and Jadeja are played as proper 4th and 5th bowlers at times :facepalm:. Both these guys are part-timers like those above names at best. May be give or take a little here and there. Given that their second skill is also hit or miss, there is only room for 1. My personal pick would be Pandya but another debate for another time.


It’s sad that we consider guys like Kedar Jadhav a decent enough part timer. Kudos to him and MSD for making it work for a very small time (no pun intended) . However he was not a good enough bowler as any of those above names. Not even in the same league.

 

Thats how bad it is that we have Shreyas Iyer as one of the options and bases on what I have seen of Venky Iyer or Deepak Hooda’s bowling in internationals it’s a joke. 
 

Why can’t they groom a guy like Yashasvi Jaiswal. Make him bowl in IPL atleast FFS. He can’t be worse than Tewatiya, Negi, Parag etc. he was very good in u-19. 


 

 

 

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2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

In T20 every kind of bowler will be slaughtered with exception like Narine, Rashid, Bumrah.  We are talking about bowling an over or two here and there. Not bowling 4 overs every match. No team is going to give respect to our bowlers just because they are "specialists".  They will turn specialist into part timer. If specific bowler is targeted there is nothing wrong with trying a part timer instead of feeding the same bowler just because he is specialist. 

yes anyone can be slaghtered but a % of bowler with less skills n control is always higher then the one who has better skills n Control or variety. In modern u need certain skills to be even a part timers like pace variation , control, variety . Their are far more intelligent ppl sitting their then us and the reason they aint doing this throwing ball to guys like iyer rohit is coz they have nothing in their bowling to threat opposition , only harm they can cause is to their own team. Batsman becoming casual will not happen every day 

One over is enough to change a game in t20 .

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1 hour ago, maniac said:

 

Sehwag and Yuvraj have taken multiple 5frs.

 

These days guys like Pandya and Jadeja are played as proper 4th and 5th bowlers at times :facepalm:. Both these guys are part-timers like those above names at best. May be give or take a little here and there. Given that their second skill is also hit or miss, there is only room for 1. My personal pick would be Pandya but another debate for another time.

 

 

ye dono part timer hai :facepalm:

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34 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yes anyone can be slaghtered but a % of bowler with less skills n control is always higher then the one who has better skills n Control or variety. In modern u need certain skills to be even a part timers like pace variation , control, variety . Their are far more intelligent ppl sitting their then us and the reason they aint doing this throwing ball to guys like iyer rohit is coz they have nothing in their bowling to threat opposition , only harm they can cause is to their own team. Batsman becoming casual will not happen every day 

One over is enough to change a game in t20 .

 

Iyer is just an example. I don't say he should be used. We are talking about development of such part timers.  We are  merely comparing with older generation bowlers like Raina, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Yuvraj who all could chip in a over or two.  Their main trade was batting. Infact Yuvraj was our frontline bowler in WC 2011. We don't use them because nobody is willing to learn new skills. If Jadhav at an old age could develop a completely new skill why not our batsmen.  I don't think our players have the eagerness to develop their skills.  Guys like Markram, Maxwell open the bowling for heavensake with just 2 fielders outside inside power play.  The reason we don't have part timers is not because of the rules. It is because we don't have any.  Only option we have is bits and pieces players like Jaddu, Hooda.

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

ye dono part timer hai :facepalm:


i meant parttimer in Sachin, Saurav, Yuvraj mode. Who can give you 10 overs once in a while, good for 6-7 overs at max. Remember Sachin was the designated 5th bowler in the early 90’s and if you ask who can unplayable magic  deliveries he had more ability than Jaddu and Pandya combined. As I said if they were half as good as batters our bowling unit will be magical as we can get better specialist bowlers. However in T20 generation Pandya is alright but he is not a reliable regular bowler and so isn’t Jaddu in LOIs 

 

Yuvi the loi bowler > Jadeja the loi bowler and we don’t even have to go to batting.

Edited by maniac
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12 hours ago, Vijy said:

even though the thread deals with LOIs, one can/must also ask the question of why part-timers are missing in Indian test team. Yes, we are playing 5-bowler attack, which is a big plus. with that said, there could be injuries or there could be some tracks where 6th bowler is rendered important. moreover, if one had 2 good part-time bowlers, one can play 4 bowler attack on bowling friendly pitches and thereby strengthen batting.

 

many teams have/had part-timers even in tests: brathwaite for WI; root, lawrence (even jennings) for Eng; chucker Kane for NZ; labuschagne for Oz; and so on

Hanuma Vihari is the part timer we have now. He has got three wickets in one match in England.

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