Its high time we distinguish between IPL and International players

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

I understand that some folks can't stand any criticism of their favorites - even if accurate.  

 

The problem being discussed here isn't specific to one player - whether its KL Rahul, or Rahul Tripathi, or Ruturaj.  Its about the selection philosophy when it comes to building the Indian batting unit for white ball cricket, specifically T20.  

I am the first one to say Kohli should not playing for India in any format right now. So don't make this about Kohli.It does not mean he was bad captain in any format either. Kohli's time as a player and captain has come and gone.

 

Folks need to stop blaming everything on either captain, coaches or selectors for all the short comings of players.

 

Players who are not playing in playing eleven don't become Bradmans all of sudden.Scoring runs in IPL or winning IPL means nothing when it comes to international cricket.Some folks have hard time in understanding that simple fact.

 

It is the not selection philosophy or captain which is hurting Indian team in white ball cricket. It is the acutal lack of batting  talent which is hurting Indian team in white ball or even in redball cricket.

 

Guys like Kohli and Rohit carried this unbalanced team for so long, now their time is up,40 year old DK forced his way back into the team .That should say it all about talented batsman in whiteball cricket.

 

 

 

[sandeep]

24 minutes ago, putrevus said:

It is the not selection philosophy or captain which is hurting Indian team in white ball cricket. It is the acutal lack of batting  talent which is hurting Indian team in white ball or even in redball cricket.

 

I couldn't disagree more.  Players have not been given extended runs in top order positions. All new players were shunted down the order and asked to be "consistent" at #5/6 which is almost impossible.  

 

As much as I don't really believe in Gaikwad - his extended run as opener is the kind of change that I believe Indian team mgmt needs to make.  Its not just up to the individual - the team has to put them in positions where they have increased probability of success, especially early on in their careers.  This has not happened with Indian batsmen for close to a decade now.  Rohit and Kohli were the last to really get proper extended runs to develop.  Young Kohli was given #3/4 slot early in his career - and to his credit he seized his opportunity and made the spot his own.  Since then, any and all 'new' batsmen, regardless of ability have had to do the donkey work of  batting in high risk lower order positions, while saddled with the responsibility of 'proving' themselves.

 

This is a systemic problem that has resulted in India getting poor batting outcomes relative to the talent at its disposal.  And can be quickly fixed with better team management.  

[putrevus]

46 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

We have to start realizing IPL Is not the only cricket league around the world. There are multiple leagues. Vast majority of these mercenaries take part in all these leagues. Their experience is far more than that of guys who plays exclusively on familiar Indian pitches. They play on different type of surfaces, different types of attacks. They practice over and over against all the sides and improve all the time. There was a time IPL was the only decent league available. Even then we struggled to produce good T20 side. Now the competition is higher. 

We have ten ipl sides, how many IPL sides are dependent on Indian batsmen as finishers.Other leagues will only call them if they feel there is talent.There was a time when county cricket was filled with WI players now it is not the case.Answer is easy.

 

Do we have capable big hitters? Bigger question, they should make sure cricket should not end up like Indian Hockey which went backwards after the advent of power game.

[anish2tweet]

21 hours ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

This is one of the drawbacks of IPL...we have too many mediocre players who is playing for India after 1 or 2 good season in IPL.

 

Likes of Umran Malik, Harshal Patel, Venkatesh Iyer etc are simply not international class. 

 

I think we should not get carried away by IPL form and pick every tom dick harry for international matches.

 

Indian cricket is slowly under decline but we are not realizing it

How can you say V.Iyer is bad when he actually did well for India? Need to give time for Umran to grow as a wily fast bowler. People here wanted fast bowlers and were bashing the trundlers.

[putrevus]

46 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I couldn't disagree more.  Players have not been given extended runs in top order positions. All new players were shunted down the order and asked to be "consistent" at #5/6 which is almost impossible.  

 

As much as I don't really believe in Gaikwad - his extended run as opener is the kind of change that I believe Indian team mgmt needs to make.  Its not just up to the individual - the team has to put them in positions where they have increased probability of success, especially early on in their careers.  This has not happened with Indian batsmen for close to a decade now.  Rohit and Kohli were the last to really get proper extended runs to develop.  Young Kohli was given #3/4 slot early in his career - and to his credit he seized his opportunity and made the spot his own.  Since then, any and all 'new' batsmen, regardless of ability have had to do the donkey work of  batting in high risk lower order positions, while saddled with the responsibility of 'proving' themselves.

 

This is a systemic problem that has resulted in India getting poor batting outcomes relative to the talent at its disposal.  And can be quickly fixed with better team management.  

You are again missing simple point. Indian problem for last decade was not top order. Nobody is asking lower order to be consistent..But they need to produce once in while.

 

It is just one game I understand, Pandya played whole IPL at number 4 and yet he was unable to clear boundary once in all deliveries he faced yesterday,Braithwaite won his team world cup by clearing boundary 4 times in last 4 balls.How many times did he bat in top order.

 

I could not diasgree more with your theory that players have to be given free run only at top of the order in order to build a team. I  also disagree that Rohit and Kohli were given free run at the top, Rohit once he was made opener in 2013 never looked back. Kohli made number 3 his own by performing. Sure Rohit was given multiple chances in all formats by various captains and coaches based on his talent which was there to see by whole world. I don't see that kind of talent right now.

 

Kohli and Rohit suceeded because they were talented, just like Sachin never looked back after he was made opener.You also seem to miss vital point which is common in all three players talent.

 

Talent cannot be created , it can only be polished that is the point you seem to forget.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by putrevus

[vvvslaxman]

47 minutes ago, putrevus said:

We have ten ipl sides, how many IPL sides are dependent on Indian batsmen as finishers.Other leagues will only call them if they feel there is talent.There was a time when county cricket was filled with WI players now it is not the case.Answer is easy.

 

Do we have capable big hitters? Bigger question, they should make sure cricket should not end up like Indian Hockey which went backwards after the advent of power game.

 

Precisely why DK is still backed. He made debut when Rahul Dravid was at his peak in Tests. Now Rahul Dravid is his coach. That underlines how woeful our new generation hitters are. 

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Pandya played whole IPL at number 4 and yet he was unable to clear boundary once in all deliveries he faced yesterday

 

Did you even watch the game or his batting?  He batted decent.  You clearly have it 'in' for him.  I mean if you find fault with his batting yesterday, your tinted glasses really need some cleaning.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Precisely why DK is still backed. He made debut when Rahul Dravid was at his peak in Tests. Now Rahul Dravid is his coach. That underlines how woeful our new generation hitters are. 

That is the point some people are forgetting.

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Did you even watch the game or his batting?  He batted decent.  You clearly have it 'in' for him.  I mean if you find fault with his batting yesterday, your tinted glasses really need some cleaning.

I saw his batting of all nine deliveries.I don't have anything against Pandya. But some people here  have made him into Viv Richards reincarnated.He is a servicable player at his best nothing more and nothing less.You are again missing the point of talented hitters in whiteball cricket.You keep harping on some theory about top order.

 

FYI India will never win anything notable because of Pandya . I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.

Edited June 29, 2022 by putrevus

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I saw his batting of all nine deliveries.I don't have anything against Pandya. But some people here  have made him into Viv Richards reincarnated.He is a servicable player at his best nothing more and nothing less.You are again missing the point of talented hitters in whiteball cricket.You keep harping on some theory about top order.

 

 

On one hand you moan about lack of big hitters, and on the other, you are fixated on running down the one guy we have in the squad who' s a proven boundary hitter from the first ball he comes to the crease, has demonstrated to bat 'proper' and construct innings on top of that, and can bowl useful overs.   

 

Quote

FYI India will never win anything notable because of Pandya . I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.

 

Looks like you succesfully purged the memory of Indian white ball wins in Australia against Australia....

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

problem is that the selection panel is filled with unkils, stuck in a group think where they pat themselves on the back for selecting "proper" batsmen with so-called "hunger" for runs.  That is not a bad selection mindset -for test cricket, or even ODI cricket pre-2015.  But white ball cricket has really evolved into a different beast. I mean, I love the fact that India has a cricket culture that prizes proper technique and 'big' runs in its top batsmen.  But its long past the time where at least for T20 cricket, they realize that you cannot expect a VVS Laxman to go out and score a 20 ball 40 on a regular basis. That doesn't mean that VVS isn't an amazing batsman - its just that in the T20 format, you have to select a Prithvi Shaw type batsman ahead of him.   

 

Look what has happened to KL Rahul as a T20 batsman over time - this bloke is one of our best talents over the last 5-7 years - he has put up best in class performances across formats.  He's a truly gifted batsman.  And just because Virat was given carte blanche for such a long time and simply refused to make room for him in the top 3 white ball batting slots - this guy has tinkered with his batting and attempted to become an 'anchor' to put up the big runs.  He should have been unleashed at the top of the order around 2017 - to open with Dhawan with Rohit dropping down to #3 and Virat to #4.  But that would have meant that fewer meaningless ODI centuries for 'Virat d Great'.  

 

 

yes, we are playing 00s cricket for the most part in LOIs. not gonna work given the new demands of the game

[zen]

21 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Looks like you succesfully purged the memory of Indian white ball wins in Australia against Australia....

 

 On a road if some mad person is shouting nonsense, would you waste your time on that? 

 

Knowledgeable posters already know the answer 

 

[putrevus]

44 minutes ago, sandeep said:

On one hand you moan about lack of big hitters, and on the other, you are fixated on running down the one guy we have in the squad who' s a proven boundary hitter from the first ball he comes to the crease, has demonstrated to bat 'proper' and construct innings on top of that, and can bowl useful overs.   

 

 

Looks like you succesfully purged the memory of Indian white ball wins in Australia against Australia....

I am not fixated on him nor I have purged my memory any of his acheivements.  He is not a proven boundary hitter by any means, but I agree he is the one of the best we got so let us leave him aside. . Pandya is neither the problem nor is the solution.Don't get  sidetracked from your main point.

 

 

 

FYI Jadeja also played a vital in the only match he played in that same white ball win you are talking about before being concussed.Without that innings India was not winning that series either.

Edited June 29, 2022 by putrevus

[Norman]

59 minutes ago, putrevus said:

FYI India will never win anything notable because of Pandya

 

Dumbest thing I have read all week. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Norman

[Norman]

19 minutes ago, zen said:

 

 On a road if some mad person is shouting nonsense, would you waste your time on that? 

 

Knowledgeable posters already know the answer 

 

 

Ahh yes... 

 

Only I  am "Knowledgeable" and rest are all sadak chaap gawaars and i don't care what you say unless you're agreeing with me but will still end up getting triggered if you hold a remotely different view than me. 

 

 

You're a good poster. Could be a great one too if you let go off this fake superiority complex (not sure based on what). It's really cringeworthy. 

[putrevus]

14 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

Dumbest thing I have read all week. 

 I don't have any problems with Pandya.He is a great athlete who is an asset to whiteball team. Problem I have is from people who some how diminish what Indian top three did last decade and yet seem to put Pandya on some kind of pedestal.Forgetting Pandya was also part of the team which flopped in crucial matches.

Edited June 29, 2022 by putrevus

[zen]

14 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

Ahh yes... 

 

Only I  am "Knowledgeable" and rest are all sadak chaap gawaars and i don't care what you say unless you're agreeing with me but will still end up getting triggered if you hold a remotely different view than me. 

 

 

You're a good poster. Could be a great one too if you let go off this fake superiority complex (not sure based on what). It's really cringeworthy. 

 

If sadak chhap or gawaars or whatever folks are now on social media, it does not make them different online (much like offline) 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by zen

[Norman]

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 I don't have any problems with Pandya.He is a great athlete who is an asset to whiteball team. Problem I have is from people who some how diminish what Indian top three did last decade and yet seem to put Pandya on some kind of pedestal.Forgetting Pandya was also part of the team which flopped in crucial matches.

 

 

Yes he was part of the team but he never failed as embarrassingly as the top3 usually does. 

 

2016 - WT20 bowled clutch over against Bangladesh when we were on the brink of humiliation. 

 

2017 CT - Played a lone hand in the final

 

2019 SF - put together some sort of a stand with Pant to stop the slide. 

 

You're clearly lying if you think you can put Pandya in the same bracket as the top 3 when it comes to failing spectacularly under pressure. 

[Norman]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

 

If sadak chhap or whatever folks are now on social media, it does not make them worth engaging with online (much like offline) ... sadak chaap remains sadak chaap 

 

 

 

You can do much better than this but never mind. 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

yes, we are playing 00s cricket for the most part in LOIs. not gonna work given the new demands of the game

I have been calling this out on ICF since 2015.  Its pathetic that the world's richest cricket team is so backwards in its tactics.  That's what led me to do something I normally never do - speculate about Kohli's intentions.  I mean, its not like he doesn't 'get' how cricket works.  But keeping the status quo was of immense personal benefit to him.  It led him to maximize the profitability and tenure of Kohli inc - the marketing brand.  "best ODI batsman", "most number of ODI centuries" (howsoever meaningless) etc had direct fiduciary benefits for him.  why should he give that up in pursuit of team glory, when as we saw in 2019 ODI WC - there were zero consequences for him or team mgmt for failing to even make the final in what was an effectively 4 horse race.