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Which Hindutva? Prabodhankar Thakray VS Savarkar


Alam_dar

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On 7/4/2022 at 9:49 AM, Alam_dar said:

 

It is not about convincing others, but it is about bringing your arguments on a particular issue. 

 

Nationalism is common in both the Hindutva ideologies of Thakeray and Savarkar, and thus not a problem. But the issue is of dealing with others i.e. non-Hindus, where they seem to differ. 
 

The worst the opposition is making Hindutva equivalent to Nazism and this  is where they are going  wrong. Savarkar or Golwalkar didn’t want the status of non-Muslims as Jews in 30s Germany. They didn’t want a special status as they are not as much in minority. Only naive thing they thought of purchasing  patriotism by force of electoral franchise or state benefits. They didn’t believe in the final solution like Nazis, but LeLis falsely equate them and reduce the argument against them. 
 

On 7/4/2022 at 9:49 AM, Alam_dar said:

 

I am not in favor of this 2nd kind of Hindutva, which alienate it not only from Muslims, but all other minorities too. 
 

There is no 50 shades of Hindutva. It is only for self-preservation rather than proselytizing religion. Jo bacha hain usko safeguard karna is Hindutva. Only 25 crore Muslims are made to  fear Hindutva. Don’t include all other “real” minorities who have no issues with any brand. 
 

On 7/4/2022 at 9:49 AM, Alam_dar said:

 

After the episode of Nupur Sharma, the best outcome would have been to end articles 295 a and b completely and blasphemy should not be considered a criminal offence any more. At the moment, Hindu gods are insulted, but Muslims don't let the insults of Allah/Muhammad/Islam take place. So, then what is the use of these articles when they indirectly help Muslims?

Yes, it was introduced by Brits PC for India and we continued it blindly in our IPC.

 

On 7/4/2022 at 9:49 AM, Alam_dar said:

 

And the outcome is not good while Judges of supreme court also made wrong statements which will damage the movement against the radical Islam. 

 

And right-wing Hindutva got involved in taking actions against Muhammad Zubair, which is also not going to bring any long-term benefit, but this action brought very bad name to India as I see radical Muslims again using it for their propaganda against India in Pakistan (and also for sure same would be the case in Gulf States too). 


 

It is the Indian government that is going after Zubair and not Hindutvaadis. It is retributional as this whole NGO FCRA funding from Soros, Ford , Wahabbis  etc are detrimental to safety of the nation. 
 

On 7/4/2022 at 9:49 AM, Alam_dar said:

Due to this extreme nature of RW Hindutva, the original issue of Muslim extremism dies out very much, and LW and other minorities become frightened from RW Hindutva itself. 


 

As I said, this fear is perceived only for Muslims by the LeLis as it impacts their relevance and existence (LeLis). 
 

On 7/4/2022 at 9:49 AM, Alam_dar said:

Final result will be, Islam will not be discussed and criticized in the national media, and Mullahs will keep a full grip upon Muslim youth in brainwashing them. 


 

As  @Clarke said, the reform of Islam should come from within and not the responsibility of Governments or Hindutva. Where are the moderate Muslim intellectuals who are opposing this hold of Z mullahs. Why are they not backing Arif Mohd Khan or KK Mohd or many such awakened Muslims among Indians. These Muslim so-called intellectuals are busy fighting Savarkarism and mythical Islamophobia rather than internal decay of Islamic sanctity from radicalism. 

On 7/4/2022 at 9:49 AM, Alam_dar said:

 

I don't think that one ever feels that opponents are objective. 

Nevertheless, still one has to hear what the opponents have to say, otherwise one could not counter them. 

I find many opponents or proponents of progressive politics very objective. Dhruv rathee is equivalent of Sudarshan news or Tarek Fateh for you guys. They can’t be understood to counter them. Don’t think anarchists and arsonists as revolutionaries 

Edited by coffee_rules
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2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

The worst the opposition is making Hindutva equivalent to Nazism and this  is where they are going  wrong. Savarkar or Golwalkar didn’t want the status of non-Muslims as Jews in 30s Germany. They didn’t want a special status as they are not as much in minority. Only naive thing they thought of purchasing  patriotism by force of electoral franchise or state benefits. They didn’t believe in the final solution like Nazis, but LeLis falsely equate them and reduce the argument against them. 
 

There is no 50 shades of Hindutva. It is only for self-preservation rather than proselytizing religion. Jo bacha hain usko safeguard karna is Hindutva. Only 25 crore Muslims are made to  fear Hindutva. Don’t include all other “real” minorities who have no issues with any brand. 
 

Yes, it was introduced by Brits PC for India and we continued it blindly in our IPC.

 

It is the Indian government that is going after Zubair and not Hindutvaadis. It is retributional as this whole NGO FCRA funding from Soros, Ford , Wahabbis  etc are detrimental to safety of the nation. 
 

As I said, this fear is perceived only for Muslims by the LeLis as it impacts their relevance and existence (LeLis). 
 

As  @Clarke said, the reform of Islam should come from within and not the responsibility of Governments or Hindutva. Where are the moderate Muslim intellectuals who are opposing this hold of Z mullahs. Why are they not backing Arif Mohd Khan or KK Mohd or many such awakened Muslims among Indians. These Muslim so-called intellectuals are busy fighting Savarkarism and mythical Islamophobia rather than internal decay of Islamic sanctity from radicalism. 

I find many opponents or proponents of progressive politics very objective. Dhruv rathee is equivalent of Sudarshan news or Tarek Fateh for you guys. They can’t be understood to counter them. Don’t think anarchists and arsonists as revolutionaries 

 

Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalin, ye Khial acha hai 

 

The perception of RW Hindutva from almost all others is 180 degrees opposite to what you stated above.

 

These are not only radical Muslims, but moderate Muslims also feel the same level of threat from RW Hindutva, the Indian Christians too, the Indian liberals too, ...... the Liberal all over the world too

 

In simple words, unfortunately, nobody believes in it except for the Hindutva supporters themselves. And this ultimately leads to the CLASH .... 

 

And I am concerned about this clash, which should not be there, as it will only strengthen the radical Islam. 

 

I feel that Shiv Sena was moving in the right direction under Uddhav Thakeray and his son. 

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56 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

 

 

These are not only radical Muslims, but moderate Muslims also feel the same level of threat from RW Hindutva, the Indian Christians too, the Indian liberals too, ...... the Liberal all over the world too

 

 

 

Don't play the hypocrisy. They all have a problem with Hinduism. And that is often cleverly disgusted with Hindutva terminology. All their reactions against the so called Hindutva, is constant insults to Hinduism. See the drastic increase of Hinduphobia, and it is not just insults, but brutal violence. This is the present situation, whereas the past had Hindu genocides, so what does the future hold?

 

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14 minutes ago, someone said:

 

They all have a problem with Hinduism.

 

If they have only oral problems with Hinduism (and practically they don't force people to leave Hinduism), then there should be no problem with this oral criticism of Hinduism. We only have to make sure that Islam and other ideologies (including atheism, secularism/liberalism) should also be freely criticized without any fear of so-called blasphemy punishments. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, someone said:

All their reactions against the so called Hindutva, is constant insults to Hinduism.

Oral Insults should not be a problem actually. 

 

At least as far as my ideologies of atheism/secularism/liberalism is concerned, then I welcome all others to criticize and insult them as much as they wish to do so, and there should be no problem. 

 

And actually Muslims, religious Christians and RW Hindutva are already insulting and making fun of liberalism as much as they can, and I have no problem with it. It is their right to do so. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, someone said:

 

See the drastic increase of Hinduphobia, and it is not just insults, but brutal violence.

 

Any kind of physical violence against Hinduism is not allowed. It happens in Pakistan, but I don't think is happens in India at hands of Liberals. And if Indian Muslims are involved in physical violence against Hindus, then it should be stopped and surely all liberals will stand with Hindus on this issue. 

 

14 minutes ago, someone said:

 

This is the present situation, whereas the past had Hindu genocides, so what does the future hold?

 

 

In present situation, I don't see any Hindu genocide in India, but the amount of hatred shown by RW Hindutva will lead only to Muslim genocide, just like we saw the one in Myanmar recently. 

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2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalin, ye Khial acha hai 

 

The perception of RW Hindutva from almost all others is 180 degrees opposite to what you stated above.

 

These are not only radical Muslims, but moderate Muslims also feel the same level of threat from RW Hindutva, the Indian Christians too, the Indian liberals too, ...... the Liberal all over the world too

 

In simple words, unfortunately, nobody believes in it except for the Hindutva supporters themselves. And this ultimately leads to the CLASH .... 

 

And I am concerned about this clash, which should not be there, as it will only strengthen the radical Islam. 

 

I feel that Shiv Sena was moving in the right direction under Uddhav Thakeray and his son. 

That’s because you read opinions of only fools in NDTV. AAP , TMC and LeLi duniya. Listen to Arif Mohd Khan

 

 

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12 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalin, ye Khial acha hai 

 

The perception of RW Hindutva from almost all others is 180 degrees opposite to what you stated above.

 

These are not only radical Muslims, but moderate Muslims also feel the same level of threat from RW Hindutva, the Indian Christians too, the Indian liberals too, ...... the Liberal all over the world too

 

In simple words, unfortunately, nobody believes in it except for the Hindutva supporters themselves. And this ultimately leads to the CLASH .... 

 

And I am concerned about this clash, which should not be there, as it will only strengthen the radical Islam. 

 

I feel that Shiv Sena was moving in the right direction under Uddhav Thakeray and his son. 

Is this why hardly any left across the border 

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11 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

That’s because you read opinions of only fools in NDTV. AAP , TMC and LeLi duniya. Listen to Arif Mohd Khan

 

 

Is it only about me?

 

What about the rest of the world, who are all afraid of RW Hindutva in one way or another?

I can tell you about the modern atheist movement in the West, that they put RW Hindutva somewhat close to the radical Islam, which is unfortunate. 

Please see the statement of German Foreign Minister how he condemned BJP's action against Zubair. 

 

Right from the beginning, I have been inviting the RW of India towards WISDOM .... so that the rest of world does not become afraid of them, but to become supportive to them in their fight against radical Islam. 

 

The Hindutva of Uddhav Thakeray is a step in the right direction and a wise decision. 

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25 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Is it only about me?

 

What about the rest of the world, who are all afraid of RW Hindutva in one way or another?

I can tell you about the modern atheist movement in the West, that they put RW Hindutva somewhat close to the radical Islam, which is unfortunate. 

Please see the statement of German Foreign Minister how he condemned BJP's action against Zubair. 

 

Right from the beginning, I have been inviting the RW of India towards WISDOM .... so that the rest of world does not become afraid of them, but to become supportive to them in their fight against radical Islam. 

 

The Hindutva of Uddhav Thakeray is a step in the right direction and a wise decision. 


You use a lot of words which I am not sure if understand. So let’s starts with basics. What is RW hindutva ? What are its guiding principles ?

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3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Is it only about me?

 

What about the rest of the world, who are all afraid of RW Hindutva in one way or another?

I can tell you about the modern atheist movement in the West, that they put RW Hindutva somewhat close to the radical Islam, which is unfortunate. 

Please see the statement of German Foreign Minister how he condemned BJP's action against Zubair. 

 

Right from the beginning, I have been inviting the RW of India towards WISDOM .... so that the rest of world does not become afraid of them, but to become supportive to them in their fight against radical Islam. 

 

The Hindutva of Uddhav Thakeray is a step in the right direction and a wise decision. 

How many atheists have we killed and beheaded to be afraid of us?

 

read the MEA response to Germany.  They have basically asked them to STFU.

 

No, thanks, we have enough WISDOM and we don’t need fake atheists’ support to fight radical Islam. 

 

UT’s was not Hindutva ,  it is just opportunism  to sleep with the enemy. There was no ideology there. 

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10 hours ago, ravishingravi said:


You use a lot of words which I am not sure if understand. So let’s starts with basics. What is RW hindutva ? What are its guiding principles ?

 

Please watch the video in the OP. 

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7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

How many atheists have we killed and beheaded to be afraid of us?

 

Not a single one perhaps. 

But still they are afraid of RW Hindutva?

Why?

This is the question which I have been asking you people right from the beginning. 

 

Neither you have killed atheists, nor atheists have killed Hindus, but still they are standing on the opposite side, along with Indian liberals, Indian Muslims and Indian Christians and most probably other minorities too (even if they don't openly show their fears against RW Hindutva). 

 

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

 

read the MEA response to Germany.  They have basically asked them to STFU.

 

The issue is not about telling them to STFU, but the issue is very basic one ... why the Germans had to so severely criticize the RW Hindutva government of BJP?

What was achieved by going after the journalist Zubair?

I would say it was a mistake und an unwise decision. Instead of gaining anything, a lot is lost and India became the target of criticism from Western countries, and Arab countries (which could ultimately bring much more unity among Muslims and will be extremely counterproductive)

 

It is all happening while it seems that sane BJP supporters are no longer in a position to criticize the wrong actions of far-right Hindutva and to reform them. 

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1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Please watch the video in the OP. 

 

I don't watch ill informed videos with underlying agenda to arrive at factual positions. Do some homework for today. Please tell us who coined the word Hindutva. If you are simply going to quote convenient videos to make a point, its very straight forward for me to share videos. Question is what do you know ? Based on the evidence, I can't say you know much. 

Edited by ravishingravi
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1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Not a single one perhaps. 

But still they are afraid of RW Hindutva?

Why?

This is the question which I have been asking you people right from the beginning. 

 

Neither you have killed atheists, nor atheists have killed Hindus, but still they are standing on the opposite side, along with Indian liberals, Indian Muslims and Indian Christians and most probably other minorities too (even if they don't openly show their fears against RW Hindutva). 

 

 

The issue is not about telling them to STFU, but the issue is very basic one ... why the Germans had to so severely criticize the RW Hindutva government of BJP?

What was achieved by going after the journalist Zubair?

I would say it was a mistake und an unwise decision. Instead of gaining anything, a lot is lost and India became the target of criticism from Western countries, and Arab countries (which could ultimately bring much more unity among Muslims and will be extremely counterproductive)

 

It is all happening while it seems that sane BJP supporters are no longer in a position to criticize the wrong actions of far-right Hindutva and to reform them. 

If atheists don’t get Hinduism, it’s their loss. No other group will accept them, they f not for Hindus. 
 

What’s the west or Muslim world gaining by criticism of Indian government (not RW Hindutva Government of BJP) over Zubair action?

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13 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Not a single one perhaps. 

But still they are afraid of RW Hindutva?

Why?

This is the question which I have been asking you people right from the beginning. 

 

Neither you have killed atheists, nor atheists have killed Hindus, but still they are standing on the opposite side, along with Indian liberals, Indian Muslims and Indian Christians and most probably other minorities too (even if they don't openly show their fears against RW Hindutva). 

 

 

The issue is not about telling them to STFU, but the issue is very basic one ... why the Germans had to so severely criticize the RW Hindutva government of BJP?

What was achieved by going after the journalist Zubair?

I would say it was a mistake und an unwise decision. Instead of gaining anything, a lot is lost and India became the target of criticism from Western countries, and Arab countries (which could ultimately bring much more unity among Muslims and will be extremely counterproductive)

 

It is all happening while it seems that sane BJP supporters are no longer in a position to criticize the wrong actions of far-right Hindutva and to reform them. 

They are scared because,we put a front against Islamists, evangelists and liberandus, while rest of the world was busy being sissy to them 

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On 7/9/2022 at 2:24 AM, Alam_dar said:

 

If they have only oral problems with Hinduism (and practically they don't force people to leave Hinduism), then there should be no problem with this oral criticism of Hinduism. We only have to make sure that Islam and other ideologies (including atheism, secularism/liberalism) should also be freely criticized without any fear of so-called blasphemy punishments.

 

Why is there heavy security around Hindu temples? There is inevitable threats against Hindusim and its common people. Hindutva is just hogwash.

 

The question should be why is radicalization the default state of one community? Instead of directly confronting radicals, the leftists tell Hindus to stop being Hindus, so that they are not provoked...

 

 

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