Pakistan and Srilanka LOI bowling is more exciting than India’s: prove me wrong.

[raki05]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

NKP salve challenger Trophy,  under-19 world cup were primarily used for selecting ODI squad. I still can't believe Pujara opened with Rohit for our under-19 world cup lol After IPL things have changed. Everything hinges on IPL. Even Test selection. Nobody would have picked Bumrah for tests but for IPL. Same with Ashwin another IPL product who hardly did anything in domestic first class at the time of selection. Jadeja the 'rockstar' later slid into test side from T20 side.  Most recently when we were hit by several injuries in Australia  we had to draft in 3 T20 players (Thakur, Natrajan , Sundar) to play Gabba test. This would have never happened in any era. Sundar had not played first class for 4 years when he made Test debut. Umran in one season became a crorepathi due to his clock speed.  IPL is your entry point. On a positive note you can pick players from the street to play IPL.  Bumrah is indeed a  result of talent search programme by JOhn Wright for MI. 

 

 

 

Main thing is identifying right talent and giving them opportunity. It should not be solely based on stats, now everyone can't shine like Bumrah did after his selection, and  he retained his position after ipl exploits and became an ace bowlers. With young fast bowler you don't have to rot them in domestic to perform before bringing in international. You can always bring in young fast bowler in t20 international. What Indian selectors does is even from ipl they look for stats and economy rather than flamboyance and pace , a bowler who can change the course if the match with his threatening bowling. I mean inspite of Umran's scintillating performance in ipl they backed trundler Avesh.I have seen many interview of selectors and Dravid where they were emphasizing line and length is important than pace, I mean what is this sterotyping that slow trundlers will be line and length bowler and faster ones will be not.. Dravid was reluctant to give chance to Umran after Steyn, Brett lee demanded him to be in wc squad post ipl and it reflected with Avesh backing. Now Avesh has been discarded soon before wt20 as he never had potential. Who knows of they would have backed Umran he might have performed and would be able to improve himself. I mean after Ipl lot of people here were rooting for Umran, Mohsin(though I don't have full confidence in him as of yet) and Arshdeep as find of ipl and rightly so. But TM choose Avesh over Umran and Mohshin this is where we lag they go based on seniority, stats , economy but even there Umran one ipl performance trumps Avesh entire ipl performance. Hence it is important you identify right potential and back then rather being completely stats driven and bigoted that only trundlers can bowl with line and length. In Dravid i have zero trust.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, raki05 said:

Main thing is identifying right talent and giving them opportunity. It should not be solely based on stats, now everyone can't shine like Bumrah did after his selection, and  he retained his position after ipl exploits and became an ace bowlers. With young fast bowler you don't have to rot them in domestic to perform before bringing in international. You can always bring in young fast bowler in t20 international. What Indian selectors does is even from ipl they look for stats and economy rather than flamboyance and pace , a bowler who can change the course if the match with his threatening bowling. I mean inspite of Umran's scintillating performance in ipl they backed trundler Avesh.I have seen many interview of selectors and Dravid where they were emphasizing line and length is important than pace, I mean what is this sterotyping that slow trundlers will be line and length bowler and faster ones will be not.. Dravid was reluctant to give chance to Umran after Steyn, Brett lee demanded him to be in wc squad post ipl and it reflected with Avesh backing. Now Avesh has been discarded soon before wt20 as he never had potential. Who knows of they would have backed Umran he might have performed and would be able to improve himself. I mean after Ipl lot of people here were rooting for Umran, Mohsin(though I don't have full confidence in him as of yet) and Arshdeep as find of ipl and rightly so. But TM choose Avesh over Umran and Mohshin this is where we lag they go based on seniority, stats , economy but even there Umran one ipl performance trumps Avesh entire ipl performance. Hence it is important you identify right potential and back then rather being completely stats driven and bigoted that only trundlers can bowl with line and length. In Dravid i have zero trust.

 

 

Umran's rejection i would understand as he for some bizarre reason dropped his pace against Ireland and had poor returns. But Avesh's election is bizarre selection. Both Avesh and Moshin played for the same franchise. Moshin comfortably outbowled every one  including Avesh/Chameera etc.  India had ample matches to test him.  Now the ship has sailed. We have to wait now.  Another left handed seamer. So even going by IPL stats Moshin was comfortably better.

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, Adamant said:

 

 

Just bcoz I know that India has one of the worst fast bowling legacy 

 

 

Everyone knows it ... and it's a fact. Who is disputing it  ??

 

India had no pace attack to speak of till 2015. 

 

We had a good pace attack in tests from 2016 and a really good pace attack from 2018 to 2021.

 

That is what people claim and nothing more.

 

P.S -- The fact that we had poor pace attacks till 2015 was not due to lack of talent but due to   (a)  Minimal intention to get good quick bowlers  (b)  Lack of a proper system of identifying and developing good quick bowlers including maintaining their fitness. 

 

 

 

[MultiB48]

16 minutes ago, maniac said:

that’s what I believe Imran Khan claims and most of his fans believe that.

He takes the credit ,i guess he did help him out but waqar was doing well in domestic.Even Wasim was noticed by javed and picked vs nz under his captaincy but people love imran so he gets the credit.

 

But the thing is these guys weren't just quick they knew how to bowl, and also had leadership mentality .Look at someone like bhuvi ,he can never be captain inspite of playing for so long.

[express bowling]

51 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

We are getting quicker pacers unlike in the past ,but their quality isn't improving.There some technical as well as fitness and mental issue which needs to be sorted out, otherwise they wont be of international standards.

 

Quick pacers who have played sufficient FC cricket have done well as bowlers ... like Bumrah, Shami snd Siraj.

 

Biggest issues that pacers like Tyagi, Umran, Prasidh, Nagarkoti, Mohsin etc. are facing is that they have got to play very little FC cricket.

 

They don't have well developed stock balls as a result and don't know what to do when they get hit.

[Adamant]

56 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

We are getting quicker pacers unlike in the past ,but their quality isn't improving.There some technical as well as fitness and mental issue which needs to be sorted out, otherwise they wont be of international standards.Also their fielding, catching and batting has to improve.I would also like to see pacers captaining domestic teams.

This is basically what I wanted to say. 

 

I am just a bit more into theatricals. 

 

All that Jazz! 

 

Thats how you create an Impact. 

[Suhaan]

@Adamant
as claimed by you i never hyped Avesh, don't troll by claiming things which aren't true
Avesh had fitness issues which has been discussed here ,perhaps you are new

you don't know what majority of ones feel about him
India had a poor fast bowling legacy,agreed but slowly they were building a fast bowling culture

,you may acknowledge Kohli for it,dont dispute that he too played a part

I don't care who does it, really want Indian pace attack to scare opposition

Prasidh has poor returns in t20s,Siraj too looked bad but he cameback very well later
But remember t20s are getting brutal to bowlers,they will get hit but they will also win you games
We need people who understand pace and its importance
One thing i have noticed in these guys is they get tend to get overboard with variations  in t20s they try to alter lengths too frequently in 4 overs thereby loosing their line as well
Our coaches are even more dumber as they don't understand the nuances of fast bowling in t20s and share their inputs
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Suhaan]

We try overcomplicate bowling but try to keep batting as simple as that ,which is quite opposite to what should be done rather

 

Our budding speedster certainly should get opportunities in their respective domestic sides regularly,not playing will surely not help them forget about instilling leadership quality

[Suhaan]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Quick pacers who have played sufficient FC cricket have done well as bowlers ... like Bumrah, Shami snd Siraj.

 

Biggest issues that pacers like Tyagi, Umran, Prasidh, Nagarkoti, Mohsin etc. are facing is that they have got to play very little FC cricket.

 

They don't have well developed stock balls as a result and don't know what to do when they get hit.

They have been infected by this pseudo variation thing in t20s

From Khaleel to Mavi to everyone possible,they all haven't developed their stock deliveries

[MultiB48]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Quick pacers who have played sufficient FC cricket have done well as bowlers ... like Bumrah, Shami snd Siraj.

 

Biggest issues that pacers like Tyagi, Umran, Prasidh, Nagarkoti, Mohsin etc. are facing is that they have got to play very little FC cricket.

 

They don't have well developed stock balls as a result and don't know what to do when they get hit.

They have to sort out their injuries first.But likes of aaron,nathu,sen dont have great stats do they ? on the other hand likes of unadkat ,gaja etc have the numbers and it not just about stats but being able to bowl in a certain way.Sometimes conditions are too harsh and you got to look how the guy bowled but bowling just a few quick overs isnt enough for int cricket.

 

Umran is getting his chance ,but he has to perform or atleast match the other pacers otherwise mukesh will get his chance ,thats how it goes.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

They have to sort out their injuries first.But likes of aaron,nathu,sen dont have great stats do they ? on the other hand likes of unadkat ,gaja etc have the numbers and it not just about stats but being able to bowl in a certain way.Sometimes conditions are too harsh and you got to look how the guy bowled but bowling just a few quick overs isnt enough for int cricket.

 

 

Not every quick pacer is going to do well. Some may lack the will to succeed while others may lack the intelligence. We have seen pacers like Wahab or Sami had horrible numbers.

 

That's why a large pacer pool is needed and you pick the best ones. 

 

And Fast bowlers will always have fitness issues. There were a lot of complaints against the NCA regarding how they managed injury of pacers between 2018 and 2021. 

 

Things will hopefully be better now with change of guard.

 

 

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

Umran is getting his chance ,but he has to perform or atleast match the other pacers otherwise mukesh will get his chance ,thats how it goes.

 

 

Umran needs to play a full season of Ranji Trophy. A game here and a game there won't help him develop as a bowler. 

 

 

[express bowling]

Number of First Class matches played by Indian quicks before Test debut ... 

 

 

Bumrah      28

Shami         24

Siraj            39

 

Prasidh      11 .... these pacers are yet to debut

Umran          4 

Tyagi            1

Sen             16

Nagarkoti    1

Mavi             8

Dayal          17

Mohsin         1

Avesh         27

Khaleel        6

 

 

....  Bumrah and Shami had played the ideal number of FC matches before Test debut, hence their bowling is so developed.

.... Siraj had played 10 matches too many. He was almost losing motivation.

..... Most of the other Indian quicker bowlers, barring Avesh, have played very few FC matches. And Covid has not helped either. 

.... Avesh is still under-developed despite 27 FC matches. Warning sign !

 

 

In a nutshell, all the budding quicks must look to play the entire upcoming Ranji season forgetting everything else. Hopefully, the BCCI will see to it.

 

This is the primary way they will develop as bowlers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by express bowling

[vvvslaxman]

When Ishant started his career he was quick. Only during Dhoni period he became a uber trundler. He had a terrific stock delivery of inswinger.  He had one of those easy, repeatable action. 

 

 

 

[MultiB48]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not every quick pacer is going to do well. Some may lack the will to succeed while others may lack the intelligence. We have seen pacers like Wahab or Sami had horrible numbers.

 

That's why a large pacer pool is needed and you pick the best ones. 

 

And Fast bowlers will always have fitness issues. There were a lot of complaints against the NCA regarding how they managed injury of pacers between 2018 and 2021. 

 

Things will hopefully be better now with change of guard.

 

 

 

 

Umran needs to play a full season of Ranji Trophy. A game here and a game there won't help him develop as a bowler. 

 

 

The problem of quick bowling is that they aren't that quick.Wahab and Sami were quick but given the opposition and the conditions, they weren't quick enough,so had to do more than just bowl fast .Specially in tests, they could run out of steam and would be neither here nor there.

 

All good fast bowlers are also good bowlers,they don't just rely on pace, maybe Johnson was an exception but he had those aus conditions which gave him extra pace and bounce and he also constantly changed his action to find what suited him.

[MultiB48]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

Number of First Class matches played by Indian quicks before Test debut ... 

 

 

Bumrah      28

Shami         24

Siraj            39

 

Prasidh      11 .... these pacers are yet to debut

Umran          4 

Tyagi            1

Sen             16

Nagarkoti    1

Mavi             8

Dayal          17

Mohsin         1

Avesh         27

Khaleel        6

 

 

....  Bumrah and Shami had played the ideal number of FC matches before Test debut, hence their bowling is so developed.

.... Siraj had played 10 matches too many. He was almost losing motivation.

..... Most of the other Indian quicker bowlers, barring Avesh, have played very few FC matches. And Covid has not helped either. 

.... Avesh is still under-developed despite 27 FC matches. Warning sign !

 

 

In a nutshell, all the budding quicks must look to play the entire upcoming Ranji season forgetting everything else. Hopefully, the BCCI will see to it.

 

This is the primary way they will develop as bowlers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fast bowlers need to develop quickly ,if they take too long they might run out of steam,so need to be picked early and guided properly.

 

Avesh is not a good athlete so takes time to get into a spell,once in rhythm then he can bowl well but has his limitations.

[First class]

My playing 11 against India 

 

1-Rizwan

2-Babar

3-Shaan

4-Haider 

5-Iftikhar ( sadly )

6-Asif 

7-Shadab

8-Waseem Jr

9-Rauf

10-Shaheen 

11-Naseem 

[Vilander]

12 hours ago, Adamant said:

This is basically what I wanted to say. 

 

I am just a bit more into theatricals. 

 

All that Jazz! 

 

Thats how you create an Impact. 

You sounded wrong and got thoroughly found and corrected by many seasoned posters. In my opinion that's how you create a pigeon hole.

[express bowling]

5 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

The problem of quick bowling is that they aren't that quick.Wahab and Sami were quick but given the opposition and the conditions, they weren't quick enough,so had to do more than just bowl fast .Specially in tests, they could run out of steam and would be neither here nor there.

 

All good fast bowlers are also good bowlers,they don't just rely on pace, maybe Johnson was an exception but he had those aus conditions which gave him extra pace and bounce and he also constantly changed his action to find what suited him.

 

 

No one looks for pacers who rely on only pace and nothing else.

 

It is just the starting point and then other skills have to developed, which primarily come from good coaching, playing around 25 FC matches and good fitness. 

 

 

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Fast bowlers need to develop quickly ,if they take too long they might run out of steam,so need to be picked early and guided properly.

 

True 

 

Which is why it is very important that young pacers like Tyagi, Umran, Mavi and Nagarkoti get to play 20 odd FC matches ASAP. 

 

4 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Avesh is not a good athlete so takes time to get into a spell,once in rhythm then he can bowl well but has his limitations.

 

I am not that hopeful about Avesh because of his poor fitness.

[Suhaan]

12 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

numbers and it not just about stats but being able to bowl in a certain way.Sometimes conditions are too harsh and you got to look how the guy bowled but bowling just a few quick overs isnt enough for int cricket.

If you are talking about domestic matches,Do you think today,these selectors waste their time on deciphering  bowling patterns and spells of bowlers ?

95% of these selectors bank on stats only for selecting players