Iran

[randomGuy]

3 hours ago, Mariyam said:

You haven't the foggiest.

 

Who do you think filed, paid for and litigated in the case?

 

In Iran, people don't have the power to vote. In India, what kind of leaders Muslims choose for themselves? Those who support triple talaq and are against any reform? Yes, some aggrieved Muslims filed and litigated in the case but are we (and you as a progressive muslim lady) satisfied with just this? Shouldn't we acknowledge whatever good that is happening, such as in Iran, and acknowledge that we could learn a thing or two from it?

Edited September 24, 2022 by randomGuy

[randomGuy]

40 people martyred in protest spanning over 30 cities. Hats off to the brave hearts.

[coffee_rules]

3 hours ago, Mariyam said:

How did you reach this conclusion?

 

Observation. I see more women in Burqa or Niqab than in Hijab. It could be regional. Esp in cities like Hyderabad and Bengaluru. Also , the increase  in percentage of women in some sort of head wear is phenomenal. It is reaching at a very young age as well.  had a Muslim family living next door in India, these days all women in that house are seen wearing Burqa. 

[coffee_rules]

3 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Fair.

 

What I was trying to get at is: (and this is anecdotal/observation based) that there are many households where the mothers would don the burqa, or a hijab. And the daughters wouldn't.

Don't see households where the movement is towards a hijab/niqab as we move ahead generations.

 

Also, what I don't understand is why a thread about social developments in Iran also a vehicle for taking potshots at Indian Muslim women. There is nothing that we share, socially speaking. It is extremely condescending. Its always the Indian Muslim women who have to "learn". They don't "stand up to oppressors" yadda yadda.

 

 

 

This is mainly topical. Go through the Hijab controversy in Karnataka thread. Currently it is being litigated in the SC. Kapil Sibal is arguing for the Muslim petitioners who wants to overturn the Kar HC decision that declared Hijab is non-essential part of Islam and should not be mandatory for women 

Edited September 24, 2022 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

Nobel peace laureate is silent on Iran but spoke on Hijab controversy in India. 
 

 

[randomGuy]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Nobel peace laureate is silent on Iran but spoke on Hijab controversy in India. 
 

 

Good observation. She is just scared for her own life. A nobody who is just bigged up by media. Indians should simply ignore.

[sandeep]

6 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Also, what I don't understand is why a thread about social developments in Iran also a vehicle for taking potshots at Indian Muslim women

unfortunately, its quite obvious why.  

[gattaca]

18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

unfortunately, its quite obvious why.  

It’s relatively new practice in India haven’t seen young college going girls wearing it during my time especially in south.  Something has changed may be woman are asked or forced to wear it now. Isn’t burqa regressive? It made sense in BCs woman wanted protect themselves from strangers what is the logic for wearing it now ? I also saw few years seen mullahs chasing kids for not attending Friday prayers was surprised to say the least. Indian Muslims are becoming more religious. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by gattaca

[BacktoCricaddict]

6 hours ago, beetle said:

Social coercion is far more difficult to overcome. Govt coercion can stop with change of govt...but social coercion ...like it happens in the subcontinent takes ages. Social coercion back by religion, tradition is draconian. 

Can't disagree with that. But if reform is necessary, it has to come from within the community.  Not by outside institutions enforcing bans.

 

Like with any other demographic, " the Muslim woman" is not a monolith.  Some may feel like it is important to showcase their culture and that the hijab is an important part of that.  Why should any external institution ban them from wearing it?  Others may feel like it is symbolic of an oppressive practice.  Why should any institution or government impose that they wear it?  

 

Tagging @coffee_rules  @Mariyam @gattaca

 

As an aside, I should be more aware of the specific college/hijab discussions, but allow me to speak about my experiences:

 

(1) I have had a number of Muslim women in my classes.  Some wear the hijab.  Others don't.  Some wear it on some days, but not on other days   Some were wearing it for in my first-year class, but had stopped wearing it by the time they took my senior-level class.  They were/are all absolutely brilliant, kind, dedicated students.  Why should I really care whether they wear a hijab or burqa or Western clothes to my class? 

 

(2) My daughter is getting ready to go to college next year.  If she chooses to wear a saree and a large bindi to class and someone tries to stop her, I'd be standing at the Dean's door with a protest letter.  When I was myself in graduate school 30 years ago ($hit, I am ollllllld), I would go to classes and my research lab with a big "chandanam" (sandalwood paste) stripe on my forehead after my 1-hr puja every morning.  No one said a word, except out of curiosity as to what that was.  Luckily, my university did not have any damn policy against it. 

 

(3) Again, the hijab - and whether or not it is a symbol of oppression - itself is not the issue.  The coercion - one way or another - is the issue.

 

PS: I understand why a full face-covering like a burqa should be opened if one wants to go on a flight, for ID card pictures and such. 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[BacktoCricaddict]

39 minutes ago, gattaca said:

It’s relatively new practice in India haven’t seen young college going girls wearing it during my time especially in south.  Something has changed may be woman are asked or forced to wear it now. Isn’t burqa regressive? It made sense in BCs woman wanted protect themselves from strangers what is the logic for wearing it now ? I also saw few years seen mullahs chasing kids for not attending Friday prayers was surprised to say the least. Indian Muslims are becoming more religious. 

Just my opinion sitting 10K miles away:  There may be a perception (correct or not) in their community that external forces are stopping them from expressing their religious beliefs.  So, they are doubling down - "woh kaun hotay hain ...". 

[coffee_rules]

@BacktoCricaddict It is not banned in all universities. There are no uniforms in degree colleges in India in the 18+ age categories. It is only in schools and in some colleges (it is called Pre-university college in Karnataka) that has uniform prescribed. Even in these colleges, hijab or Burqa is not banned. But the practice was that in classrooms it was encouraged to remove hijab which they were obliging peacefully. In one such college, few girls stopped following that practice and they were not allowed in classrooms. This ballooned into this whole controversy. It went till Karnataka HC and they have now ruled it that if the school has uniform prescribed , all have to adhere to not wear any extra religious symbols at least in classrooms. 
 

There is ko such restrictions on Bindi or naamams because they are considered cultural and not religious. They are not external wear (fabric). Some convent schools have banned bindis as well as hijabs. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by coffee_rules

[gattaca]

2 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Just my opinion sitting 10K miles away:  There may be a perception (correct or not) in their community that external forces are stopping them from expressing their religious beliefs.  So, they are doubling down - "woh kaun hotay hain ...". 

Yeah may be with BJP they might feel they are stopping them. But don’t want either to become religious. If you are religious it should start and stop at home. 

[bharathh]

4 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Just my opinion sitting 10K miles away:  There may be a perception (correct or not) in their community that external forces are stopping them from expressing their religious beliefs.  So, they are doubling down - "woh kaun hotay hain ...". 

The same girl who became the face of this movement only wears her burqa when she shows up during media. Otherwise, for all social occasions she never wears anything that she says she doesn't have a choice to do so in India. 

 

That perception of constant victimhood exists permanently in India. 

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, gattaca said:

It’s relatively new practice in India haven’t seen young college going girls wearing it during my time especially in south.  Something has changed may be woman are asked or forced to wear it now. Isn’t burqa regressive? It made sense in BCs woman wanted protect themselves from strangers what is the logic for wearing it now ? I also saw few years seen mullahs chasing kids for not attending Friday prayers was surprised to say the least. Indian Muslims are becoming more religious. 

 

I think increasing religiosity, unprecedented "arabization", etc are legitimate issues that can be brought up, but context and framing does matter.  If you talk about such things in a patronizing and hostile framing, then the conversation goes into unproductive tangents....

[ravishingravi]

I must say at this rate India might have the most regressive version of Islam in 5 years. All the Islamic countries are waking up somewhat. 

 

They don't ask for lack of education and growth amongst Muslims in India after years of appeasement. But give us our hijab. Bear in mind till about 3 years back we had a law called triple talaq and it had to be removed by a hindutva govt. Tells you so much about our secular and moderate folks. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

There is ko such restrictions on Bindi or naamams because they are considered cultural and not religious.

WADR, this is a total stretch.  Bindi, I get.  Placing Naamams, Vibhuthi, Chandanam on your forehead is totally religious. 

 

 

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

They are not external wear (fabric).

Looks like we draw our line at different places.  For you, the line is drawn at "is at a fabric?"  Then, it is disallowed.  For me, it is at "is it really detrimental to anyone else? Is anyone else's security, livelihood, well-being or safety in jeopardy?"

 

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Some convent schools have banned bindis as well as hijabs. 

Which, I think, is a mistake.  A hijab doesn't look too different from this:

 

 

I can see how they might want to mandate a specific colour of hijab to go with the uniform.  But totally banning it and banning bindis?  Ridiculous.  I studied in St. Joseph's College for my B.Sc..  No one said a word to me about my Chandanam.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[BacktoCricaddict]

10 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

This is mainly topical. Go through the Hijab controversy in Karnataka thread. Currently it is being litigated in the SC. Kapil Sibal is arguing for the Muslim petitioners who wants to overturn the Kar HC decision that declared Hijab is non-essential part of Islam and should not be mandatory for women 

To me, the big issue is that it is not up to the judiciary to decide whether something is essential/non-essential for a particular religion.  Again, I keep going back to my Chandanam analogy - Hinduism obviously does not require it.  Kerala Hindus - including Palakkad Iyers like me - would apply it to our foreheads for pujai.  Others (like Tamilians, Iyengars) would apply other symbols like Vibhuti, Naamam etc.  North Indian Hindus don't really apply any of those.  Being that it is non-essential does not need for them to ban my chandanam.   As far as I was concerned, it was essential for me to worship Guruvayurappan.  Why should anyone else question that "essentiality" unless it is hurting someone - which it is obviously not?   

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

To me, the big issue is that it is not up to the judiciary to decide whether something is essential/non-essential for a particular religion.  Again, I keep going back to my Chandanam analogy - Hinduism obviously does not require it.  Kerala Hindus - including Palakkad Iyers like me - would apply it to our foreheads for pujai.  Others (like Tamilians, Iyengars) would apply other symbols like Vibhuti, Naamam etc.  North Indian Hindus don't really apply any of those.  Being that it is non-essential does not need for them to ban my chandanam.   As far as I was concerned, it was essential for me to worship Guruvayurappan.  Why should anyone else question that "essentiality" unless it is hurting someone - which it is obviously not?   

But if somebody says you can’t enter a college or school with that chandanam to teach or attend a class, you will not say two things back and wipe your forehead off. We know there is a place and time to be religious. Some people don’t . Why is SC spending precious hours holding back  70000 other cases in backlog discussing this issue as a high priority issue?

Edited September 24, 2022 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

WADR, this is a total stretch.  Bindi, I get.  Placing Naamams, Vibhuthi, Chandanam on your forehead is totally religious. 

 

 

Looks like we draw our line at different places.  For you, the line is drawn at "is at a fabric?"  Then, it is disallowed.  For me, it is at "is it really detrimental to anyone else? Is anyone else's security, livelihood, well-being or safety in jeopardy?"

 

Which, I think, is a mistake.  A hijab doesn't look too different from this:

 

 

I can see how they might want to mandate a specific colour of hijab to go with the uniform.  But totally banning it and banning bindis?  Ridiculous.  I studied in St. Joseph's College for my B.Sc..  No one said a word to me about my Chandanam.

 

 

 

 

 

They are not allowed in convents now, ask anybody. They wipe it off and go to school. Not for some people. Rigidity and dogma is the issue, veto power is king

[coffee_rules]

15 hours ago, sandeep said:

unfortunately, its quite obvious why.  

Why? What is so obvious?