The Garba debate

[coffee_rules]

35 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So according to the Hindu newspaper which is clearly not "right wing", these guys were throwing stones and trying to disrupt the garba event because supposedly according to their judgement it was held too close to a mosque.  

 

So the angle of "love jihad" or creeping on women isn't really relavant to this specific story.  

 

Regardless, the point stands that physical punishment is illegal under Indian law.  And the police do not have the authority to "inflict punishment'.  They can arrest and file the case.  

 

Today, some of you feel like the people in question "got what they deserved".  But the reality is that police work in India is systemically flawed and inaccurate.  Tomorrow, somebody "undeserving" could very easily be at the receiving end of such treatment.   As a society we really do not want to "normalize" this sort of violence.  Regardless of context.  This is not a matter of "first world principles" or such nonsense.  Its a simple thing whether we want to live in some 19th century feudal setup or a 'normal' state governed by laws.  

 

Edit: Link to story - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/police-publicly-flog-men-who-disturb-navratri-garba-event-in-gujarat/article65971486.ece

 

That’s the same excuse for pelting stones at people in UP , Bihar , Bengal to Leicester too. Apparently, that family in Leicester had Ganapthi’s idol outside their house which was close to a mosque. Eggs were thrown on the house and not stones. 
 

 

[mishra]

5 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I am not judging the people who complained. But against any public flogging by police. Usually they get thrashed in jail cells berehami se pita jata hain

Indian Police has a problem of resources. But they are supposed to deliver. So what can they do? They use Danda.

 

Lets take a specific type example which happens everyday. A thief is caught by public and they are beating him. Now 2-3 Policeman at max reach the site with crowd of say 50 people in street.

 

Priority of Policeman is safety and well being of the caught thief and bring him under their arrest/protection. So they play psychological game. Use Danda/Stick on thief. Crowds assume that Policeman is being tough on that thief. They see justice will be done. Its different thing that later that day Policeman releases the thief from Police station with a warning to avoids paper work on already stretched Police.

[Clarke]

justice for stone throwers 

[coffee_rules]

12 minutes ago, mishra said:

Indian Police has a problem of resources. But they are supposed to deliver. So what can they do? They use Danda.

 

Lets take a specific type example which happens everyday. A thief is caught by public and they are beating him. Now 2-3 Policeman at max reach the site with crowd of say 50 people in street.

 

Priority of Policeman is safety and well being of the caught thief and bring him under their arrest/protection. So they play psychological game. Use Danda/Stick on thief. Crowds assume that Policeman is being tough on that thief. They see justice will be done. Its different thing that later that day Policeman releases the thief from Police station with a warning to avoids paper work on already stretched Police.

Still this is rare. It is usually mob justice where a mob thrashes somebody like the Sadhus in MH, but rarely police thrashing culprits  putting on a show like Gladiator style. So easily construed as a RW administration on. Muslim genocide narrative of the west.. 

Literally, NYT or Guardian thinks India is going around killing Muslims on the streets as reported by Indian sepoys

[mishra]

6 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Still this is rare. It is usually mob justice where a mob thrashes somebody like the Sadhus in MH, but rarely police thrashing culprits  putting on a show like Gladiator style. So easily construed as a RW administration on. Muslim genocide narrative of the west.. 

 

Indian Police can protect using psychological game. And they do it very well playing good cop bad cop game with Public ehen they are in street along with show of fear.

 

Now consider a situation where some criminal/leader in mob called the Police bluff and decided to outnumber Policemen using general public as mob and attack Police personals or in rare case Police station itself because he wanted to kill that thief (not because he is thief but because of some other reason). Mob doesnt know that they are being used and follow that person and overwhelm Police, Thats What happened is Palghar ie there were some smart haters/crimnals who used the mob to achieve what they wanted.

7 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

 

Literally, NYT or Guardian thinks  complicitly spreading misinformation (reasons are bias/hate/envy/racism/propagating states Interest) that state policy to India is going around killing Muslims on the streets as reported by Indian sepoys

corrected. N number of reason. They dont think. They will continue to propagate the sinister narrative that they are Superior and rest of world evil/immoral  to justify a change in their own States position among its people by drawing false equivalence with something.

[Clarke]

Actually we have a much worse version of street justice, am referring to some of those encounters which are staged. I'm with the idea that the state should follow due process.

 

Unfortunately danda is way too common in India, its only that they were tied up and belong to a particular community that this got focus. Ditto if it were a dalit is my guess. 

[ravishingravi]

I have been on receiving end of that Lathi for no fault of my own. I know what it means and yet I am empathetic towards the police. In India, fear world better than rights. There is a primal lot which have to be handled in certain way. 

 

I just cannot get myself to advice the police on this. They used their judgement to deal nuisance. 

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

I have been on receiving end of that Lathi for no fault of my own.

[ravishingravi]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

To be fair it was not spanking against post like this one. But it was one tight wrap on knuckles and the arm. Hurt for couple of months.

[Mariyam]

@mishraji

 

I've been partaking in garba festivities since childhood. Have even performed on stage a few times.It is nothing like what you say. Don't think even a single person who attended a garba night, did so to find the love of his/her life.

A vast majority of the people who are a part of the festival go there because they enjoy dancing. And enjoy dancing in groups.

And to most middle class ( or those who think like the middle class) parents, this is a socially acceptable alternative than saying: my son/daughter has gone clubbing.

 

I doubt you've attended a garba event, reading your post. Most of the times you and your group join up with acquaintances and make a large circle. The idea is to deposit all your valuables in the centre. Those not dancing/taking a break/ form a human chain around the circle that is dancing and prevent random people from barging in.

Also, most places now have private security.

 

But all that point is moot.

 

There are pervs across the board. Is harassment an issue in garba functions? Yes.

Are there Muslims who are creeps and attend these festivities only to tease/harass? Yes.

Does that mean that there should be a blanket ban on Muslims from attending the events, as you indicated in your post? What warped logic is that?

 

At the end of the day, it is extremely hypocritical to talk about assimilation of Muslims in the mainstream, if your mindset is that they shouldn't be allowed into these events.

 

I'm always a lot more wary of the type which says: Why did you go to their festivals? Why do you dance with (their) boys?

Why would you partake in the religious practices of others and commit shirk?

 

Those are the voices you want to marginalise. Not the ones who want to dance.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mariyam]

13 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

 

To be fair it was not spanking against post like this one. But it was one tight wrap on knuckles and the arm. Hurt for couple of months.

During the agitation for the Jan Lokpal Bill?

 

Sad to hear about your ordeal.  

[mishra]

4 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@mishraji

 

I've been partaking in garba festivities since childhood. Have even performed on stage a few times.It is nothing like what you say. Don't think even a single person who attended a garba night, did so to find the love of his/her life.

A vast majority of the people who are a part of the festival go there because they enjoy dancing. And enjoy dancing in groups.

And to most middle class ( or those who think like the middle class) parents, this is a socially acceptable alternative than saying: my son/daughter has gone clubbing.

 

I doubt you've attended a garba event, reading your post. Most of the times you and your group join up with acquaintances and make a large circle. The idea is to deposit all your valuables in the centre. Those not dancing/taking a break/ form a human chain around the circle that is dancing and prevent random people from barging in.

Also, most places now have private security.

 

 

Mariyamji, what i told is beauty of kidulthood and how mother nature exihibits her power in minds of youth. May be "finding love" in strictest form isnt right choice of words but acquaintace or feel good factor among boys is allways there and thats the true cause of popularity among youths. Garbha and Dandiya during Navratri is not a performance or clubbing. Such events are Social mechanism to keep civilsation going.We used to joke "Agar end mein ladaki smile na de to betaa tumamein kuch major flaw hai". May be you havent experienced Garbha and Dandiya in boyz eyes where , at end of dance, getting introduced is biggest achievement. Trust me on this.

 

4 hours ago, Mariyam said:

There are pervs across the board. Is harassment an issue in garba functions? Yes.

Are there Muslims who are creeps and attend these festivities only to tease/harass? Yes.

Does that mean that there should be a blanket ban on Muslims from attending the events, as you indicated in your post? What warped logic is that?

 

At the end of the day, it is extremely hypocritical to talk about assimilation of Muslims in the mainstream, if your mindset is that they shouldn't be allowed into these events.

 

I'm always a lot more wary of the type which says: Why did you go to their festivals? Why do you dance with (their) boys?

Why would you partake in the religious practices of others and commit shirk?

 

Those are the voices you want to marginalise. Not the ones who want to dance.

Kids arent pervs or criminal be it Hindu or Muslim when they attend or feel like attending the event. Be very clear on that. But Keeping question focussed around kids is absolutely wrong way to look at it. Problem is intention of Muslim Society heads and objectives.

J Sai Deepak summed it very beautifully. Hindus in India are forced to compromise again and again, be it when they created Indian constitution or be it in social life because "Log kya Sochenge".  Now you may say that not every Muslim thinks like that(Correct), but unless certain scriptures (apostasy,conversion as minimum requirement for getting married, Non Muslim Girls are unequal , non Muslims are Kaafirs,my god is only true god, my relisious duty to spread my religion, jihad and so on) of Islam arent denounced and violently opposed by the Muslim Community, I dont see any reason why victims (Non Muslims) should trust them.  Because otherside will keep seeing those innocent kids just as tools to decimate any society and culture not same as Medina

Edited October 7, 2022 by mishra

[BacktoCricaddict]

<off-topic response> <deleted>

Edited October 7, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[coffee_rules]

9 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@mishraji

 

I've been partaking in garba festivities since childhood. Have even performed on stage a few times.It is nothing like what you say. Don't think even a single person who attended a garba night, did so to find the love of his/her life.

A vast majority of the people who are a part of the festival go there because they enjoy dancing. And enjoy dancing in groups.

And to most middle class ( or those who think like the middle class) parents, this is a socially acceptable alternative than saying: my son/daughter has gone clubbing.

 

I doubt you've attended a garba event, reading your post. Most of the times you and your group join up with acquaintances and make a large circle. The idea is to deposit all your valuables in the centre. Those not dancing/taking a break/ form a human chain around the circle that is dancing and prevent random people from barging in.

Also, most places now have private security.

 

But all that point is moot.

 

There are pervs across the board. Is harassment an issue in garba functions? Yes.

Are there Muslims who are creeps and attend these festivities only to tease/harass? Yes.

Does that mean that there should be a blanket ban on Muslims from attending the events, as you indicated in your post? What warped logic is that?

 

At the end of the day, it is extremely hypocritical to talk about assimilation of Muslims in the mainstream, if your mindset is that they shouldn't be allowed into these events.

 

I'm always a lot more wary of the type which says: Why did you go to their festivals? Why do you dance with (their) boys?

Why would you partake in the religious practices of others and commit shirk?

 

Those are the voices you want to marginalise. Not the ones who want to dance.

 

 

 

 

 

Never been to one in India, I am pretty sure it will be a secular event with no restrictions to non-Hindus in a cosmopolitan city like South Bombay, and there is no religious ritual like Aarti/puja in those events. Over here, there will be Garba (hand clapping dance) , puja/arti where all people do Aarti and then dandiya (with sticks). I have seen many 2nd and 3rd Gen kids trying to hook up in these events. Have seen goras too, but can’t say if Muslims attend (pretty sure they do) , if they do, they must be dressing up like others not to show their religion through attire. 
 

In Indian context, with the amount of population and boys and girls not being allowed to mingle, there are various incidents of pervs and oglers, esp from non-Hindu community as it sure is a big spectacle. Not sure a blanket ban to non-Hindus is practical, but if there are id checks, let those with girlfriends, wives or a female companion be allowed. Just like old school Family room section in restaurants (esp in the south) where only families are allowed. 

[mishra]

On 10/7/2022 at 2:45 PM, coffee_rules said:

 

In Indian context, with the amount of population and boys and girls not being allowed to mingle, there are various incidents of pervs and oglers, esp from non-Hindu community as it sure is a big spectacle. Not sure a blanket ban to non-Hindus is practical, but if there are id checks, let those with girlfriends, wives or a female companion be allowed. Just like old school Family room section in restaurants (esp in the south) where only families are allowed. 

Garbha is religious public event for Hindus (Sikhs Jain and so on). Its not a Secular Government Public event. Thats the way it should be. If Muslims realy want it to be secular why dont they themselves organise their own Garbha and Dandiya in their own area without hurting religious sentiments of Hindus and let Hindu boys participate. No, they will never do it. The libetard ecossyme will facilitate theft of Hindu Girls in garb of Secularism by asking Hindus to trust Muslim boys and grant them access to our young girls?

Edited October 10, 2022 by mishra

[dial_100]

I was kicked out from Garba when I was a little teenaged kid. Ever since, I skip it. They dont need me and I dont need them. Why go to a place where you are not welcome?

 

As for few complaining about not being welcome there, where is your pride? Go ahead and create a new group, invite your people and play Garba. Why make fuss for everything.

 

[Clarke]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:31 AM, dial_100 said:

I was kicked out from Garba when I was a little teenaged kid. Ever since, I skip it. They dont need me and I dont need them. Why go to a place where you are not welcome?

 

As for few complaining about not being welcome there, where is your pride? Go ahead and create a new group, invite your people and play Garba. Why make fuss for everything.

 

 

Most of us follow this rule as well, keeps things simple. Bhaad mein jaaye, kya farak padta hai BC 

 

However it doesn't work for everyone since they feel their rights are being violated and everything needs to be debated in the age of 24/7 news cycle & social media. 

[diga]

Do you want to allow a community into Garba which has the notoriety of rapes, abduction, grooming gangs?

Unless muslims reform , this will be the fate of their community... a woman is raped every 2hrs in Pak (that too this news from NDTV).

 

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/in-pakistan-a-woman-is-raped-every-2-hours-convictions-only-0-2-report-3428239

 

 

[ravishingravi]

On 10/14/2022 at 4:00 AM, diga said:

Do you want to allow a community into Garba which has the notoriety of rapes, abduction, grooming gangs?

Unless muslims reform , this will be the fate of their community... a woman is raped every 2hrs in Pak (that too this news from NDTV).

 

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/in-pakistan-a-woman-is-raped-every-2-hours-convictions-only-0-2-report-3428239

 

 

 

For me it's not a fair label to set. Crimes especially like rape are function of culture or law and order of the state. There are Muslims in the south of India in large numbers. Turkey is 95% Muslim state. It's one of the safest places for women. And fairly liberal too. 

 

Now coming to whether Muslims should or shouldn't be allowed to Garba eventd. Ideally should or shouldn't is not a part of our discourse. Let individual communities take their call. Garba is a religious gathering but also a social event. Men and women can mingle a great deal more easily and also have a good time. 

 

Should we guard these from Muslim men trying to connect with Hindu women ? I would say let community take the call. I don't discount the apprehension. But a one size fits all approach doesn't work. 

 

But yes I do believe we need strong reformation voices within Muslim communities for asking same freedom for their women as their men get. If the men can enjoy the Garba ( Strictly Pagan ) , dance to music and mingle with the crowd, I would like the women to have the same freedom. 

[ash]

Is this same as Dhandiya , the dance with the sticks? Never heard about this