Dispelling the last great Pakistani myth: that they have historically been a better team than India

[singhvivek141]

Pakistan's heavier H2H against India isn't something to be scared off.

Most of the Pakistan's success to India has come in late 80's to late 90's where, they usually had a mind blowing attack comprising of Imran, Akram, Younis, 2 Mushtaq's, Shoaib aided by Aaqib, Razzaq, Mehmood, they also had a very strong batting lineup for Subcontinent conditions including Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Ijaz Ahmed, Yousuf, Miandad.

In comparison, for most of 90's we had Fixeruddin, Sachin as our main batters with a bit of support from Sidhu and Jajeja...our bowling was lolworthy as we had only Srinath, Kumble and Venkatesh Prasad...likes of Manoj Prabhakar were worse than Abdul Razzaq....while Kapil's bowling lost his zing by late 80's.

Our stocks started to rise when we included Dravid, Ganguly in late 90's, we elevated our batting and then added Zak, Agarkar, Nehra, Bhajji in our bowling, then came Virender Sehwag and he just blew away Pakistan with his hard hitting flamboyance.
India and Pak were very neck to neck between 2001-2007, but post that as Pakistan started to loose their star players one by one, India kept on gaining new performers. However, then due to political circumstances we didn't play each other enough and hence that record stayed as it is.

[Dil Dil India]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

Head to head stats say pak has won more whats the point in saying they haven't lol..  5 foot lilliput indians have a sudden problem with facts ;) boobi koomar is apt for India..lulz.

 

OK cool bye

Another paindoo from Lahore with reading issues. Dabur Hazam and UAE Chawalwan have made you immune to logic.

[Vilander]

7 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Another paindoo from Lahore with reading issues. Dabur Hazam and UAE Chawalwan have made you immune to logic.

lol  how long have you been posting here hehe 

 

stats are facts Pak beat india in more odi ganes than the other way, facts don’t care abt your emotions. 
 

 

[BlueBlood]

14 hours ago, deathmonger said:

We will easily be top 10 in 2050.

 

you are making a big mistake comparing to first world countries - they have been first world for decades now so their society doesn’t change.

india is a rapidly growing economy so society changes rapidly as well. 
 

sports proficiency is all dependent on per capita income. Brazil and China are much richer countries. They are 0.75+ hdi and usd 8k-12k countries. We are 0.65 and usd 2.5k. We will reach that level in the 2040s and you will see changes.

 

compare Tokyo 2020 to Sydney 2000 and see the changes. See the cricket teams, the hockey teams etc. Now 20-30 years later imagine where they will be.

 

check out south Korea’s medal hauls in the 1970s.

 

Societal changes follow economic growth. Singapore South Korea Taiwan etc were all third world countries once.

 

THIS IS BS and you know it.

 

In 2000's it was Vision 2020 and we are yet to even come close to what we should be capable of.

 

In 2050 they will say vision 2080.

 

The medals we are winning right now like PV Sindhu etc. are because of their relatively rich parents spending tons of time and money on their coaching etc.

 

It's not raw natural freak of nature talent like Michael Phelps in swimming. Such talents are lingering in small towns with no hope or long left India for other countries.

Perfect example is cricket itself: Umran Malik is in the prime of his life and most likely has a 5 year career due to his action and raw talent before his pace will drop like all express fast bowlers. He is still not being coached at the highest level to improve his skills. The team wants him to magically perform out of sheer raw potential rather than coaching him and fine tuning his skills for next level performance.

 

The society has not changed one bit since past 20 years. Taiwan, South Korea became first world countries because of their discipline and cultural shift of quality.

 

In India even today there is fear to question authority whether it be jobs, whether it be in politics or even local municipal government.

 

Change occurs when as a society you demand greatness and don't settle for mediocrity.

 

As long as there are new Kohli's, Dhoni's and Sachin's in cricket with demi god status, no other sport will take over.

 

I am telling this as someone who played soccer at the highest levels in school days. The sheer lack of facilities, support, resources and even societal pressure is something that needs a massive cultural shift that will not happen until cricket takes a back seat and other sports are telecasted more, paid more, infrastructure developed etc.

 

I have not seen this happen at all in the last 20 years let alone last 5 years. So yes, it's fine to patriotic but "potential for greatness" is not the same as reality.

 

 

[BlueBlood]

11 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Pakistan's heavier H2H against India isn't something to be scared off.

Most of the Pakistan's success to India has come in late 80's to late 90's where, they usually had a mind blowing attack comprising of Imran, Akram, Younis, 2 Mushtaq's, Shoaib aided by Aaqib, Razzaq, Mehmood, they also had a very strong batting lineup for Subcontinent conditions including Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Ijaz Ahmed, Yousuf, Miandad.

In comparison, for most of 90's we had Fixeruddin, Sachin as our main batters with a bit of support from Sidhu and Jajeja...our bowling was lolworthy as we had only Srinath, Kumble and Venkatesh Prasad...likes of Manoj Prabhakar were worse than Abdul Razzaq....while Kapil's bowling lost his zing by late 80's.

Our stocks started to rise when we included Dravid, Ganguly in late 90's, we elevated our batting and then added Zak, Agarkar, Nehra, Bhajji in our bowling, then came Virender Sehwag and he just blew away Pakistan with his hard hitting flamboyance.
India and Pak were very neck to neck between 2001-2007, but post that as Pakistan started to loose their star players one by one, India kept on gaining new performers. However, then due to political circumstances we didn't play each other enough and hence that record stayed as it is.

 

I think you missed one key point - circa 2007 T20 and IPL success. Most pitches worldwide are batting pattas.

 

You can see it also with Rohit Sharma's 2 double hundreds, Dhawan's bullying in home conditions and even Shoaib Akhtar, Shaun Tait, Shane Bond and other fast bowlers struggling since 2006 onwards. The H2H results were completely skewed since then.

 

Brett Lee was breathing fire in his first 5 years and then struggled later on. Pitches even in Australia, England etc. for limited overs cricket were pathetic for bowlers. New Zealand was the only exception and that too only in 2 venues.

 

When you put a better bowling team vs. a better batting team in batsman friendly conditions, the results will almost always favor the batting side.

 

If you put the same scenario in a bowler friendly pitch (especially pacy Perth pitch for example) then results will be almost always favor the better bowling team.

If India vs. Pak game was played in Perth, in the same pitch we played against South Africa, I would give edge to Pak if they dropped Nawaz and put 4 fast bowlers on their side.

Edited October 31, 2022 by BlueBlood

[MechEng]

@BlueBlood is a true blood fairweather fan 

[Dil Dil India]

3 hours ago, Vilander said:

lol  how long have you been posting here hehe 

 

stats are facts Pak beat india in more odi ganes than the other way, facts don’t care abt your emotions. 
 

 

I joined in 2013...the year India won their 2nd Champions Trophy spanking your boys on the way.

 

It is indeed a fact that Pak won more ODIs. This is not in question. Now aapne ghabrana nahi hai, btw peepee walk facts don't care about your feelings dialogue use na kari jaani, wahan bhi <<Argentinian footballer>> gaye the yahan bhi wahi hona hai.

 

Facts:

 

1. Pakistan have won more ODIs than India h2h.

2. India have won the most important ODIs at a much better rate h2h.

3. India have more WCs (biggest prize)

4. India have more CT (second biggest ODI trophy)

5. India have won more Asia Cups.

 

The question is would you swap extra kitply and shaan masala odis for WC matches including semis and additional trophies. The answer if you are honest with yourself...tumhe lollywood aur lyari ki kasam veered...is quite clear.

 

Ab Ben shapiro k dialogues copy karna band kar aur kuch original layi lahore ton.

 

Over and out.

 

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

I joined in 2013...the year India won their 2nd Champions Trophy spanking your boys on the way.

 

It is indeed a fact that Pak won more ODIs. This is not in question. Now aapne ghabrana nahi hai, btw peepee walk facts don't care about your feelings dialogue use na kari jaani, wahan bhi <<Argentinian footballer>> gaye the yahan bhi wahi hona hai.

 

Facts:

 

1. Pakistan have won more ODIs than India h2h.

2. India have won the most important ODIs at a much better rate h2h.

3. India have more WCs (biggest prize)

4. India have more CT (second biggest ODI trophy)

5. India have won more Asia Cups.

 

The question is would you swap extra kitply and shaan masala odis for WC matches including semis and additional trophies. The answer if you are honest with yourself...tumhe lollywood aur lyari ki kasam veered...is quite clear.

 

Ab Ben shapiro k dialogues copy karna band kar aur kuch original layi lahore ton.

 

Over and out.

 

still facts are that pak leads in odi head to head. Nothing more nothing less. You can post with all drama still does not change that fact.  Facts don’t care about your emotions.
 

Did I say their wins were better or India did not win more In wc etc nope. They have won more odi and test games against India, can’t get around that fact. They have won more, deal with it. 
 

getting triggered everywhere being aggressive with their key boards hehe makes one a loser.

 

and all that you wrote after some English I don’t follow, cheers 

[deathmonger]

7 hours ago, BlueBlood said:

 

THIS IS BS and you know it.

 

In 2000's it was Vision 2020 and we are yet to even come close to what we should be capable of.

 

In 2050 they will say vision 2080.

 

The medals we are winning right now like PV Sindhu etc. are because of their relatively rich parents spending tons of time and money on their coaching etc.

 

It's not raw natural freak of nature talent like Michael Phelps in swimming. Such talents are lingering in small towns with no hope or long left India for other countries.

Perfect example is cricket itself: Umran Malik is in the prime of his life and most likely has a 5 year career due to his action and raw talent before his pace will drop like all express fast bowlers. He is still not being coached at the highest level to improve his skills. The team wants him to magically perform out of sheer raw potential rather than coaching him and fine tuning his skills for next level performance.

 

The society has not changed one bit since past 20 years. Taiwan, South Korea became first world countries because of their discipline and cultural shift of quality.

 

In India even today there is fear to question authority whether it be jobs, whether it be in politics or even local municipal government.

 

Change occurs when as a society you demand greatness and don't settle for mediocrity.

 

As long as there are new Kohli's, Dhoni's and Sachin's in cricket with demi god status, no other sport will take over.

 

I am telling this as someone who played soccer at the highest levels in school days. The sheer lack of facilities, support, resources and even societal pressure is something that needs a massive cultural shift that will not happen until cricket takes a back seat and other sports are telecasted more, paid more, infrastructure developed etc.

 

I have not seen this happen at all in the last 20 years let alone last 5 years. So yes, it's fine to patriotic but "potential for greatness" is not the same as reality.

 

 

Man, I am quoting facts and real figures and you are going on intangibles.

 

Fact is Indian gdp has grown at a rate of 6.75% over the last 30 years. Even if india grows at 5% over the next 30 years, we reach middle income status similar to turkey or Russia - not something unexpected considering how sound indias economic fundamentals are.

 

what do you mean there is no change in the last 20 years. Check every sporting metric - we are better. In Sydney we won a lone bronze, this time 7 medals including a gold and 2 silvers.

 

India now medals at every badminton and wrestling championship (bronzes mostly but earlier even that wasn’t there) and junior groups are even better. Our hockey team is so much better than the 2000s. In cricket we have the highest w/l ratio in all formats in the last decade. Our women athletes are so much better.

 

Thing is as India grows richer, the people with “relatively rich parents” will also grow. And this will percolate to the talents in small towns as well.

 

Look at the cricket team. Back in the day everyone was from Delhi and Mumbai and look now.

 

thing is it might look difficult on the ground level but statistics etc don’t lie. Taiwan and South Korea too were poor and sucked in sports when they were our level. You talk about authority. Those places were dictatorships until the early 90s. Mindset change follows economic prosperity, not the other way around.

[Dil Dil India]

11 hours ago, Vilander said:

still facts are that pak leads in odi head to head. Nothing more nothing less. You can post with all drama still does not change that fact.  Facts don’t care about your emotions.
 

Did I say their wins were better or India did not win more In wc etc nope. They have won more odi and test games against India, can’t get around that fact. They have won more, deal with it. 
 

getting triggered everywhere being aggressive with their key boards hehe makes one a loser.

 

and all that you wrote after some English I don’t follow, cheers 

Hahahaha it is clear to see who the loser is, I know exactly who you are from peepee. Facts dont care about your feelings => come back when Dabur Hazam helps Pakistan match India's WC or even ICC trophy count. Over and out, paindoo logic.

[Norman]

India has more World cups and Champions Trophies than Pakistan. And also held the Test No.1 ranking for the longer duration. 

 

So how is Pakistan a better side "historically"? 

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Hahahaha it is clear to see who the loser is, I know exactly who you are from peepee. Facts dont care about your feelings => come back when Dabur Hazam helps Pakistan match India's WC or even ICC trophy count. Over and out, paindoo logic.

Still no answers simple stat 

 

Pak won more odi and tests in head to head stats against India. 
 

#Fact 

 

now go cook in it ;)

[Dil Dil India]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

Still no answers simple stat 

 

Pak won more odi and tests in head to head stats against India. 
 

#Fact 

 

now go cook in it ;)

Jeez tech bro you lahori painful are dense. It is indeed a fact that Pak have won more ODIs and tests h2h against India....point of this thread before you expectedly came up with your lahori logic was that if this fact was more important than the fact that India have destroyed Pak hth where it mattered most in addition to more WCs, test series wins in more countries, more Asia Cups and more CTs. 

 

Expected better from a burger lahori.

[the don]

The ODI and Test head to head is a lie . India is a historically great team with a worse winning record than even Srilanka but thats all a lie.Lets celebrate utter mediocrity with an insecure thread.

[Vilander]

55 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

@Vilanderburger cook in this while I come on peepee to make you peepee. #fact

 

Pee cook etc Is that you hitting on me? What does that even mean. Rhetorical I don't want to know, but no thanks I am hetero sorry. 

[Vilander]

3 minutes ago, the don said:

The ODI and Test head to head is a lie . India is a historically great team with a worse winning record than even Srilanka but thats all a lie.Lets celebrate utter mediocrity with an insecure thread.

 

Gotta agree on this one with you. It's a stat and can't help but wonder what is the insecurity around it pak won more odi and tests against India , pretty much the same as the I am loosing Count what 15 -1 in CWC and T20WC where you guys were panned. 

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Dil Dil India said:

Jeez tech bro you lahori painful are dense. It is indeed a fact that Pak have won more ODIs and tests h2h against India....point of this thread before you expectedly came up with your lahori logic was that if this fact was more important than the fact that India have destroyed Pak hth where it mattered most in addition to more WCs, test series wins in more countries, more Asia Cups and more CTs. 

 

Expected better from a burger lahori.

 

You are either my bro or you are hitting on me make a decision first, and more importantly decide on what you want to type after that make a sentence and type.  Your post makes no sense to me. 

So head to head is a fact good now you are understanding. India beat pak more in wc yup thats a fact too. Now where did I say either of this is more important? I haven't its all in your head. 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Vilander

[Norman]

25 minutes ago, the don said:

The ODI and Test head to head is a lie . India is a historically great team with a worse winning record than even Srilanka but thats all a lie.Lets celebrate utter mediocrity with an insecure thread.

 

Thread is not about head to head record though is it? 

 

I know it hurts you but it is what it is. India has a significantly superior cricketing history and achievements than Pakistan. Simple plain fact. 

 

India has won more world cups, more ICC trophies, more test maces, more Asia cups etc etc... and let us not even compare the U19 and Women's teams, it will get even more embarrassing for you guys. 

[Norman]

It's weird because Paxtanis are the first ones to discard "useless bilateral" achievements of the Indian team in the last decade saying we fail when it matters the most but at the same time cling onto the same useless bilateral head to head record to come to such weird conclusions that they're a historically better side. 

[Dil Dil India]

@the don @Vilander one is a burger and the other not but both are lahori paindoos quite clearly. They have nothing to say at all in response to the OP and simply derailing the thread. Should have at least got some greenbros from Karachi...more sensible than these paindoos.