Dispelling the last great Pakistani myth: that they have historically been a better team than India

[Vilander]

On 10/30/2022 at 2:09 AM, Gollum said:

Shouldn't draw equivalence of Pak hockey team with their cricket team. No unfair methods employed by them in hockey, just pure skills, artistry, athleticism, poetry in motion. 

 

Shahbaz Ahmed Sr., Hassan Sardar, both GOATs, both greater than any cricketer produced by Pakistan. 

 

What is happening here is this. 

 

First some malcontent in pakistani forum mouths off and these Indian savior keyboard warriors fight there and then bring the filth here. Lol getting aggressive and shooting all over the place , questioning every players skill which were bonafied great according to pundits etc. What is the harm is accepting a sport teams achievement?. This is not a illogical jingo forum. Call out fake narratives like harsh thakur for sure but be sane.

[BlueBlood]

15 hours ago, deathmonger said:

Man, I am quoting facts and real figures and you are going on intangibles.

 

Fact is Indian gdp has grown at a rate of 6.75% over the last 30 years. Even if india grows at 5% over the next 30 years, we reach middle income status similar to turkey or Russia - not something unexpected considering how sound indias economic fundamentals are.

 

what do you mean there is no change in the last 20 years. Check every sporting metric - we are better. In Sydney we won a lone bronze, this time 7 medals including a gold and 2 silvers.

 

India now medals at every badminton and wrestling championship (bronzes mostly but earlier even that wasn’t there) and junior groups are even better. Our hockey team is so much better than the 2000s. In cricket we have the highest w/l ratio in all formats in the last decade. Our women athletes are so much better.

 

Thing is as India grows richer, the people with “relatively rich parents” will also grow. And this will percolate to the talents in small towns as well.

 

Look at the cricket team. Back in the day everyone was from Delhi and Mumbai and look now.

 

thing is it might look difficult on the ground level but statistics etc don’t lie. Taiwan and South Korea too were poor and sucked in sports when they were our level. You talk about authority. Those places were dictatorships until the early 90s. Mindset change follows economic prosperity, not the other way around.

 

The facts are clear - India is NOT a third world country in any metric any more.

 

You either accept this or not. That's where the crux of the matter is.

 

If you think India is a third world country even though the Indian government has insane amount of money and resources compared to a Romania, Cuba, Kazakhstan etc.

 

These countries by all measures are considered third world countries but India lags behind even these countries.

 

That's what I am saying, it's not for the lack of talent or economic prosperity. It's a cultural thing. The same reason why Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. also don't win in Olympics even though they have a high population.

 

People in Brazil for example value Olympics and have a culture and tradition of jujitsu etc. even though they are a soccer crazy country.

 

The south asian countries just don't have that. In fact, even China has the same issue until the government made it a point to create a policy that pushed raw talent kids (even against the parent's wishes) into schools that had the best programs for that particular sport and heavily invested into this with their media and political might.

 

This was the main reason from 2004 onwards they made massive leaps.

 

I do not see anything like this in India. What I mean to say is, what the current lot of olympics winners are doing is that they are succeeding DESPITE everything against them.

 

Economic prosperity is very different from societal progress. It's important you understand this.

 

Until dancing shows, gossip shows and comedy shows get more viewership, ad dollars and sponsorships than hard working olympic sports, there will be no quantifiable progress.

 

It's as simple as that. You can be as patriotic as you want but change usually gets massive resistance, we see none of that in India. Even in communist China when they started to send talented kids to different states and schools, they got massive backlash but in the end the country benefited.

 

In USA, Europe etc. society values olympic winners at the highest level and there is a volunteer system and infrastructure from school days that encourages special athletes. A guy like Michael Phelps with genetic freak talent in swimming would never have gotten the support in India to uplift his skills.

 

Even Usain Bolt from Jamaica, he is a national hero there even though his prime was only about 6-8 years. A guy like that in India would have wasted his prime years against a nepotist system.

Edited November 1, 2022 by BlueBlood

[the don]

I love how insecure men use “wHEN iT mATters” to feel good about their minnowesque record, something teams like Australia, Westindies would never do.

 

Pakistan defeating India in the only global ODI final the two teams have played did not matter, as if any India, Pak game is inconsequential, lol. 
Tell me with a straight face that Miandad smacking Chetan Sharma for a last ball six did not matter. It scarred India.

Now carry on with the insecurity and present the ordinary Indian record as you wish.

[Norman]

11 minutes ago, the don said:

I love how insecure men use “wHEN iT mATters” to feel good about their minnowesque record, something teams like Australia, Westindies would never do.

 

Pakistan defeating India in the only global ODI final the two teams have played did not matter, as if any India, Pak game is inconsequential, lol. 
Tell me with a straight face that Miandad smacking Chetan Sharma for a last ball six did not matter. It scarred India.

Now carry on with the insecurity and present the ordinary Indian record as you wish.

 

What insecurity? What ordinary Indian record? 

 

Having more than double the major titles than you guys is ordinary? Keep sucking on thay coca cola cup final six and some mythical "scarrings"... It's not gonna change a thing. 

 

 

India (12 ICC+ACC titles) and Sri Lanka (9 titles) are both historically been better cricket teams than self proclaimed most tailunted nation. 

 

[Dil Dil India]

55 minutes ago, the don said:

I love how insecure men use “wHEN iT mATters” to feel good about their minnowesque record, something teams like Australia, Westindies would never do.

 

Pakistan defeating India in the only global ODI final the two teams have played did not matter, as if any India, Pak game is inconsequential, lol. 
Tell me with a straight face that Miandad smacking Chetan Sharma for a last ball six did not matter. It scarred India.

Now carry on with the insecurity and present the ordinary Indian record as you wish.

Hahahahahaha before 2017 Pak fans didn't even care about CT as India had 2 CTs (including a dismantling of Pak with chucker Ajmal in 2013) and Pak had 0.

 

You are using your lahori logic again, please get some backup from Karachi or Islamabad as Pindi and Lahori logic is the worst.

 

Nobody is saying those games didn't matter. Every game matters including Dabur Azam stat padding vs Magala and Blizzard. However certain games are more important than others. If you think Kitply Cup and Coca Cola Cup are better than WC QF 1996 or WC semi 2011 then sure.

 

Facts: India have won more WCs. Biggest prize in sport. India have won more CTs (same thing that you mention unashamedly in your previous post) and more Asia Cups.

 

Your argument is like saying Andy Roddick is better than Djokovic (google both of them if you have Internet in Lahore).

[kruiser]

HISTORICALLY speaking.....

 

 

... they were India! 

[deathmonger]

9 hours ago, BlueBlood said:

 

The facts are clear - India is NOT a third world country in any metric any more.

 

You either accept this or not. That's where the crux of the matter is.

 

If you think India is a third world country even though the Indian government has insane amount of money and resources compared to a Romania, Cuba, Kazakhstan etc.

 

These countries by all measures are considered third world countries but India lags behind even these countries.

 

That's what I am saying, it's not for the lack of talent or economic prosperity. It's a cultural thing. The same reason why Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. also don't win in Olympics even though they have a high population.

 

People in Brazil for example value Olympics and have a culture and tradition of jujitsu etc. even though they are a soccer crazy country.

 

The south asian countries just don't have that. In fact, even China has the same issue until the government made it a point to create a policy that pushed raw talent kids (even against the parent's wishes) into schools that had the best programs for that particular sport and heavily invested into this with their media and political might.

 

This was the main reason from 2004 onwards they made massive leaps.

 

I do not see anything like this in India. What I mean to say is, what the current lot of olympics winners are doing is that they are succeeding DESPITE everything against them.

 

Economic prosperity is very different from societal progress. It's important you understand this.

 

Until dancing shows, gossip shows and comedy shows get more viewership, ad dollars and sponsorships than hard working olympic sports, there will be no quantifiable progress.

 

It's as simple as that. You can be as patriotic as you want but change usually gets massive resistance, we see none of that in India. Even in communist China when they started to send talented kids to different states and schools, they got massive backlash but in the end the country benefited.

 

In USA, Europe etc. society values olympic winners at the highest level and there is a volunteer system and infrastructure from school days that encourages special athletes. A guy like Michael Phelps with genetic freak talent in swimming would never have gotten the support in India to uplift his skills.

 

Even Usain Bolt from Jamaica, he is a national hero there even though his prime was only about 6-8 years. A guy like that in India would have wasted his prime years against a nepotist system.

lolwut.

 

India is a third world country. Government has a lot of money but that's cause of the population. That money has to be distributed over the benefit of more than a billion people.

 

Third world countries are determined by HDI/per capita income, not total money.

Romania, Cuba and Kazakhstan aren't third world countries by any measure.

 

Romania is a first world country with a 0.821 HDI and a $15000 per capita income.

Cuba is at 0.764 and $8882.

Kazakhstan is at 0.825 and $9686.

 

India is not hitting those numbers until the 2040s.

 

Bangladesh and Pakistan are poorer than India and hence do badly.

 

Indonesia for it's per capita income has done well. They are at $4691 and 0.705 and got 5 medals. Within 10-20 years their tally will also increase.

 

Societal progress follows economic progress. All countries were social backward and conservative when poor. When a country is poor, parents guide their kids to "safe jobs" for survival. Once a country is rich, the arts and sports flourishes as people can "afford" to get into these fields. This is not being patriotic. It's simple social science and economics. Korean movies and music etc as well as excellence in sports only happened once they were rich.

 

Brazil is at $8570 and 0.754.

 

Brazil was a single digit olympic country until 1996. They had won 3 in 1992 Barcelona.

 

Check out Brazil's Olympics chart vs their HDI chart. They were a 2-3 medal country. Had 8 in LA due to Soviet boycott and then 3 in 1992. Huge jump in 1996 and then have been 10+ and last time had 20+. Right now we are at the level of Brazil 1995. These next 3 Olympics are gonna be huge with Indian medals around 25-30 by 2032 with 5-10 golds. You can bookmark this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vilander]

7 hours ago, the don said:

I love how insecure men use “wHEN iT mATters” to feel good about their minnowesque record, something teams like Australia, Westindies would never do.

 

Pakistan defeating India in the only global ODI final the two teams have played did not matter, as if any India, Pak game is inconsequential, lol. 
Tell me with a straight face that Miandad smacking Chetan Sharma for a last ball six did not matter. It scarred India.

Now carry on with the insecurity and present the ordinary Indian record as you wish.

Not everyone is insecure. Pakistani wins can not be belittled. But India has canned you in all wc matches except 1. That's something. 

[BlueBlood]

14 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Hahahahahaha before 2017 Pak fans didn't even care about CT as India had 2 CTs (including a dismantling of Pak with chucker Ajmal in 2013) and Pak had 0.

 

You are using your lahori logic again, please get some backup from Karachi or Islamabad as Pindi and Lahori logic is the worst.

 

Nobody is saying those games didn't matter. Every game matters including Dabur Azam stat padding vs Magala and Blizzard. However certain games are more important than others. If you think Kitply Cup and Coca Cola Cup are better than WC QF 1996 or WC semi 2011 then sure.

 

Facts: India have won more WCs. Biggest prize in sport. India have won more CTs (same thing that you mention unashamedly in your previous post) and more Asia Cups.

 

Your argument is like saying Andy Roddick is better than Djokovic (google both of them if you have Internet in Lahore).

 

9 hours ago, deathmonger said:

lolwut.

 

India is a third world country. Government has a lot of money but that's cause of the population. That money has to be distributed over the benefit of more than a billion people.

 

Third world countries are determined by HDI/per capita income, not total money.

Romania, Cuba and Kazakhstan aren't third world countries by any measure.

 

Romania is a first world country with a 0.821 HDI and a $15000 per capita income.

Cuba is at 0.764 and $8882.

Kazakhstan is at 0.825 and $9686.

 

India is not hitting those numbers until the 2040s.

 

Bangladesh and Pakistan are poorer than India and hence do badly.

 

Indonesia for it's per capita income has done well. They are at $4691 and 0.705 and got 5 medals. Within 10-20 years their tally will also increase.

 

Societal progress follows economic progress. All countries were social backward and conservative when poor. When a country is poor, parents guide their kids to "safe jobs" for survival. Once a country is rich, the arts and sports flourishes as people can "afford" to get into these fields. This is not being patriotic. It's simple social science and economics. Korean movies and music etc as well as excellence in sports only happened once they were rich.

 

Brazil is at $8570 and 0.754.

 

Brazil was a single digit olympic country until 1996. They had won 3 in 1992 Barcelona.

 

Check out Brazil's Olympics chart vs their HDI chart. They were a 2-3 medal country. Had 8 in LA due to Soviet boycott and then 3 in 1992. Huge jump in 1996 and then have been 10+ and last time had 20+. Right now we are at the level of Brazil 1995. These next 3 Olympics are gonna be huge with Indian medals around 25-30 by 2032 with 5-10 golds. You can bookmark this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See, this is the problem with discussing with someone wearing rose tinted glasses.

 

If you are saying Cuba and Kazakhstan of all places are NOT third-world countries, I would laugh at your assertion.  It's 100% false. Have you even visited those countries? I have and India is a lot more prosperous than them.

 

In fact, I would put even a bankrupt Sri Lanka having more going for them than Cuba or Kazakhstan having visited there.

 

You are being unreasonable in your discussion. The numbers don't lie.

 

Cuba or Kazakhstan or Romania have no business getting more medals than India. The fact that they are means something is seriously wrong with the sports culture in India.

 

The fact that we are even comparing India to these countries or Indonesia for example is in itself a sad predicament.

 

India can be 10x more prosperous but the olympic gold count will not increase by 10x. The country is dealing with a lot of internal issues that are not easy to fix with just money.

 

Nepotism in sports, not giving equal respect to world class athletes like Bhaichung Bhutia compared to Sachin, Kohli etc., no proper facilities, no "volunteer" system in other sports outside of cricket where teachers take some under their wing and coach them to greatness and the list goes on.

 

When families want their kid to crack IIT and spend insane amount of money on coaching centres and consider that a success to a gold medal in olympics, that's not easy to fix with just prosperity. PV Sindhu's father was also a sports player and he had his own sports coaching academy so it was easy for her to migrate to the top.

 

Not many players have this kind of luck, support, timing etc. If you look at Arjun Tendulkar, he has all the money and support in the world but isn't able to make it at the highest level.

 

Money or prosperity is not the solution. It's a cultural shift that needs to happen. It could have happened if we had just ONE freak of nature like Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps who won all the gold medals in their sport. But, in a nepotist system and general discrimination across all government institutions, it is impossible for such athletes to shine. Usain Bolt and Phelps only had 2 Olympics where they played at their prime as it's 4 years apart. In India the system is so bad that 6-8 years is not enough for someone to go through the next level unless they start very young around 10 years old and get full support.

 

You need not just raw talent, you need proper coaching and infrastructure to fine-tune that talent, we have zero such system in place and until that happens you are just day dreaming.

[deathmonger]

1 hour ago, BlueBlood said:

 

 

See, this is the problem with discussing with someone wearing rose tinted glasses.

 

If you are saying Cuba and Kazakhstan of all places are NOT third-world countries, I would laugh at your assertion.  It's 100% false. Have you even visited those countries? I have and India is a lot more prosperous than them.

 

In fact, I would put even a bankrupt Sri Lanka having more going for them than Cuba or Kazakhstan having visited there.

 

You are being unreasonable in your discussion. The numbers don't lie.

 

Cuba or Kazakhstan or Romania have no business getting more medals than India. The fact that they are means something is seriously wrong with the sports culture in India.

 

The fact that we are even comparing India to these countries or Indonesia for example is in itself a sad predicament.

 

India can be 10x more prosperous but the olympic gold count will not increase by 10x. The country is dealing with a lot of internal issues that are not easy to fix with just money.

 

Nepotism in sports, not giving equal respect to world class athletes like Bhaichung Bhutia compared to Sachin, Kohli etc., no proper facilities, no "volunteer" system in other sports outside of cricket where teachers take some under their wing and coach them to greatness and the list goes on.

 

When families want their kid to crack IIT and spend insane amount of money on coaching centres and consider that a success to a gold medal in olympics, that's not easy to fix with just prosperity. PV Sindhu's father was also a sports player and he had his own sports coaching academy so it was easy for her to migrate to the top.

 

Not many players have this kind of luck, support, timing etc. If you look at Arjun Tendulkar, he has all the money and support in the world but isn't able to make it at the highest level.

 

Money or prosperity is not the solution. It's a cultural shift that needs to happen. It could have happened if we had just ONE freak of nature like Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps who won all the gold medals in their sport. But, in a nepotist system and general discrimination across all government institutions, it is impossible for such athletes to shine. Usain Bolt and Phelps only had 2 Olympics where they played at their prime as it's 4 years apart. In India the system is so bad that 6-8 years is not enough for someone to go through the next level unless they start very young around 10 years old and get full support.

 

You need not just raw talent, you need proper coaching and infrastructure to fine-tune that talent, we have zero such system in place and until that happens you are just day dreaming.

 

Dude, India is one of the poorest countries in the world. India is not more prosperous then them.

 

A lot of middle class and upper class Indians (which I assume you belong to due to English proficiency) make the fallacy that English speaking India or middle class India is the real India. The real India lives in slums and villages.

 

You are just giving me anectodal evidence. I actually am presenting IMF data - Cuba and Kazakhstan are a lot more prosperous than India.

 

Have you visited every household in India or do you just mingle amongst middle class English educated college educated folks like yourself? Thing is most Indians can't even speak English or go to college. The India you inhabit is a very very small minority.

 

Coaching and infrastructure follows economic prosperity. The Padukone and Gopichand academy are now creating Badminton world and olympic medalists.

[Vilander]

9 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Can our paindoo Vilander (Technics)

Very little to add other than abuse. I absolutely don't care what ver villager derog term you use. There is no need to have insecurity with a head to head stat, it's just a head to head. If you have issues with someone in another forum go there and sort it out. Abusing folks here is useless.

 

 

[Vilander]

On 11/1/2022 at 4:05 AM, Dil Dil India said:

Hahahaha it is clear to see who the loser is, I know exactly who you are from peepee

 

Who do you think I am moron, I don't post there. You mean pakistani cricket forum?. Lol this guy thinks i post there, so some ptsd looks like ?

 

 

[Vilander]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:13 AM, Dil Dil India said:

@the don @Vilander one is a burger and the other not but both are lahori paindoos quite clearly. They have nothing to say at all in response to the OP and simply derailing the thread. Should have at least got some greenbros from Karachi...more sensible than these paindoos.

 

Who do you think I am , you are such a village idiot its commical. Rebut with facts emotions are useless in a forum where you only text. 

[Dil Dil India]

12 hours ago, Vilander said:

 

Who do you think I am moron, I don't post there. You mean pakistani cricket forum?. Lol this guy thinks i post there, so some ptsd looks like ?

 

 

Nothing else needs to be added. You are such a burger Technics, fake wannabe tough guy sending me private messages asking for my address and phone number...lol....typical paindoo.

 

Come back when you actually have something to refute what is mentioned in the OP or zip it.

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Nothing else needs to be added. You are such a burger Technics, fake wannabe tough guy sending me private messages asking for my address and phone number...lol....typical paindoo.

 

Come back when you actually have something to refute what is mentioned in the OP or zip it.

 

I sent a message offering to talk as you seem to have a misconception as to who I am. I suggest you go check the members section and see what post I have historically. You are the person that's abusing in each post, I feel your posts targeted in tagging me make no sense and are moronic yes. 

 

You can't ask me to zip anything moron. You can * off. 

[Vilander]

Moron OP you are fighting an imaginary one sided fight with me (pfft) because of what looks like some flame war you are carrying from some other forum lol its so stupid. Stop tagging me in your dumb posts. You are already in my ignore list. 

[Adamant]

Pakistan has a better legacy in test cricket for sure, in other formats we are ahead. 

[Vilander]

7 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Pakistan has a better legacy in test cricket for sure, in other formats we are ahead. 

Legacy on one on one historically, overall india held the mace for longest and pak was a post the fact no 1 so test legacy would still be in indian favor they won more though more a matter of them being better and playing more at that time, but Lol dude don't talk facts in this thread. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Vilander

[Dil Dil India]

22 minutes ago, Vilander said:

 

I sent a message offering to talk as you seem to have a misconception as to who I am. I suggest you go check the members section and see what post I have historically. You are the person that's abusing in each post, I feel your posts targeted in tagging me make no sense and are moronic yes. 

 

You can't ask me to zip anything moron. You can * off. 

pAIPaindoo burgers like you are so transparent..technics, again, if you have anything to answer the OP do it. Otherwise stop being a slob and bugger off.

[Dil Dil India]

33 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Pakistan has a better legacy in test cricket for sure, in other formats we are ahead. 

What legacy? Just want to understand:

 

1. India have won 2 test series in Aus. When Pakistan last won a test in Aus, Imran Khan was young enough to not need kali dal.

2. India have been number 1 test side in the world for a long time, will need to check the numbers but I am sure Pak's numbers don't stack up. India also have a WTC final.

3. Even in countries where both have won series, India did it well before Pakistan...until fairly recently Pakistan could not even win a test series in WI.

4. Before someone brings up WI of yore, let's not forget India has a 2-1 win vs Aus in 2001 which is arguably the greatest team in history.

 

Even if you want to talk raw stats, there is virtually nothing in it...Pak shade us 12-9 HTH and we have both won series in each other's countries.

 

It is a lot closer than ODIs though, that I do accept. However, the 2 test series wins in Aus tip it in India's favour for me. Pakistan just don't have a comparable overseas series win.