Is Ben Stokes the most “clutch” cricketer of the modern era?

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Norman said:

 

Smith has also performed in Ashes series against England, which are extremely high pressure for an Australian player. . 

 

To his credit, Kohli has done well in WT20s but his dismal record in the more prestigious ODI wc knockouts leave a terrible impression. He could have easily stamped his name as a mentality monster had he saw India home in atleast one of the 3 big chases (2015 SF, 2017 F, 2019 SF), heck atleast a couple of okayish 40-50 run knocks would have sufficed but failing to cross even 5 runs in all those game ... just sticks out like a sore thumb. 

 

I was mainly talking about LOIs. Smith done better in ODI ICC cups and Kohli better in WT20. So that's roughly equal.

 

Tests are more about countering conditions. Kohli has done better in Aus than Smith in India.

 

India don't play Pak in Tests otherwise Kohli would have done well there too.

 

Yes Kohli didn't do well in the games you mentioned, but he also had to come in early in 2 of them and one in a steep chase. Smith had comparatively easier situations.

[Suhaan]

3 hours ago, Lord said:

came at 75/1 and scored 42(36)

 

What's so special about it?

Rohitisque SR,so you know .....

[vvvslaxman]

Srilanka resorted to part time spin since they exhausted all their spin option.  They could have finished 2 overs before with the kind of depth they had. But they were overly cautious

[sage]

@maniacwhat about Marlon bhai

[mikeypbadana86]

4 hours ago, Norman said:

 

Smith has also performed in Ashes series against England, which are extremely high pressure for an Australian player. . 

 

To his credit, Kohli has done well in WT20s but his dismal record in the more prestigious ODI wc knockouts leave a terrible impression. He could have easily stamped his name as a mentality monster had he saw India home in atleast one of the 3 big chases (2015 SF, 2017 F, 2019 SF), heck atleast a couple of okayish 40-50 run knocks would have sufficed but failing to cross even 5 runs in all those game ... just sticks out like a sore thumb. 

2015 Aus scored 330 batting first ,  2017 champions trophy pak scored 340 ---The mathematical odds for a win chasing is non existent here. Its like the great wasim alarm failing in 1999 World Cup final when PAK was bundled for 132.  I agree though ,kohli  failed in 2015 and 2017.

 

His real failure was in 2019 SF, got unlucky with LBW decision as umpires call. hit high on the pads, ball clipping the stumps.

 

The greatest of chasing knocks came in 1996 semis and final by Aravninda de silwa against India and Aus.  while batting first, Arvinda scored a half century and scored a hundred in World Cup final chasing 241. 2023 ODI World Cup could well be the year for kohli, where we can expect a knock out. 

 

 2024 T20 is 16 team World Cup in West Indies/USA. while ODI could be for the purists, T20 is global face of cricket. Kohli's clutch knocks in 2014 and 2016 SEMI FINAL's, 2016 virtual quarter final against AUS( 82), 2022 t20 virtual knock out vs  PAK from an improbable situation. one too many clutch knocks  for sure , albeit in T20. 2023 World Cup could well be the year, where kohli has great odds of playing a clutch knock in knock outs.

4 hours ago, Norman said:

 

Smith has also performed in Ashes series against England, which are extremely high pressure for an Australian player. .

 

To his credit, Kohli has done well in WT20s but his dismal record in the more prestigious ODI wc knockouts leave a terrible impression. He could have easily stamped his name as a mentality monster had he saw India home in atleast one of the 3 big chases (2015 SF, 2017 F, 2019 SF), heck atleast a couple of okayish 40-50 run knocks would have sufficed but failing to cross even 5 runs in all those game ... just sticks out like a sore thumb. 

 

[maniac]

3 hours ago, sage said:

@maniacwhat about Marlon bhai

Absolutely but only in T20.

[maniac]

7 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Nope, not even close but he's among the top 5 overall post 2015 especially.

When I say modern era for me that would be 2007-2008 onwards during the whole first WT20 and IPL phase.

[Dil Dil India]

Don't have an opinion on Stokes really but it is amazing how much a bit of luck here and there can change things. He was out in that Headingly test match and survived purely because Aus did not have reviews left. In the WC final Dharmasena the idiot did not know the rules. I guess fortune favours the brave....

 

 

Regarding Kohli the criticism of his ODI big games record is rather exaggerated. He played a very good knock in the CT 2013 final, played a great supporting hand in the 2011 WC final and had a good knock in the CT semi 2017 as well. Also has a WC ton vs Pak and another great knock in the 2019 WC, pressure wise on par with WC final.

 

The 2017 CT F, 2015 WC semi and 2019 WC semi were failures sure but in 2 of those he was chasing improbable targets against dangerous bowling attacks with its tails up under lights....sample size and circumstances are largely mitigating. 

[Gambit]

What is remarkable about Stokes is that he did a Chetan Sharma x 4 in a World Cup final and his career did not fall to pieces after that. 

[R!TTER]

7 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

 

 

The 2017 CT F, 2015 WC semi and 2019 WC semi were failures sure but in 2 of those he was chasing improbable targets against dangerous bowling attacks with its tails up under lights....sample size and circumstances are largely mitigating. 

He failed in 2011 QF, SF, finals was a moderately - really good innings depending on who you ask, 2013 CT was essentially a T20 so not comparable - Jadeja played an equally good knock & was more crucial with the ball, failed in 2015 QF & SF, 2017 CT we were chasing a small total against SA & he was out twice in finals against Aamir. Sure there is no one we can compare him against directly in the modern era because even Smith's innings all came first up! From India there's obviously SRT & he has some good innings but again nothing world beating like Kapil's 170 odd against Zim or Aravinda's twin gems in 1996 SF & final.

 

So counting his failures you can easily see why he's not that great in ODI's despite his numbers! SRT had 4 good innings in ODI WC, KO games against 3 decent oppositions we can discount the Kenya one. Kohli has none thus far! That's a big blot that his fans try to cover up vehemently, in fact SRT faced much worse opposition/condition & just the one new ball & no rules favoring batters as they do now. You can't weasel your way out of pointing his awful record in WC by claiming his CT numbers which are still middling & 330-340 was a chaseable target in 2017, unlike 360 in 2003 

Edited November 6, 2022 by R!TTER

[Dil Dil India]

44 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

He failed in 2011 QF, SF, finals was a moderately - really good innings depending on who you ask, 2013 CT was essentially a T20 so no comparable - Jadeja played an equally good knock & was more crucial with teh ball, failed in 2015 QF & SF, 2017 CT we were chasing a small total against SA & he was out twice in finals against Aamir. Sure there is no one we can compare him against directly in the modern era because even Smith's innings all came first up! From India there's obviously SRT & he has some good innings but again nothing world beating like Kapil's 170 odd against Zim or Aravinda's twin gems in 1996 SF & final.

 

So counting his failures you can easily see why he's not that great in ODI's despite his numbers! SRT had 4 good innings in ODI WC, KO games against 3 decent oppositions we can discount the Kenya one. Kohli has none thus far! That's a big blot that his fans try to cover up vehemently, in fact SRT faced much worse opposition/condition & just the one new ball & no rules favoring batters as they do now. You can't weasel your way out of pointing his awful record in WC by claiming his CT numbers which are still middling & 330-340 was a chaseable target in 2017, unlike 360 in 2003 

Firstly there is no need to use words like weasel out. Im just trying to have a discussion.

 

2013 CT is officially an ODI. That it was shortened is neither here nor there. His only real blot is WC knockouts but the sample size is small. 

 

I am.not interested in SRT vs Kohli but it is funny you mention Kohli was out twice in the CT final but completely brush over Tendu being out about 40 times in Mohali. A 21 year old Kohli in WC 2011 still outscored Tendu in the final and scored more than him in both of Tendu's finals...it doesnt matter because the sample size is small.

 

Have a feeling Kohli will play an iconic innings at some point in 2023 WC knockouts and put this to bed.

[R!TTER]

14 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

I am.not interested in SRT vs Kohli but it is funny you mention Kohli was out twice in the CT final but completely brush over Tendu being out about 40 times in Mohali.

And yet you bring this up? He was dropped, last I checked Kohli's ton at TB in 2018 test had half a dozen drops, didn't realize drops count as out 

 

14 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

A 21 year old Kohli in WC 2011 still outscored Tendu in the final

 And SRT was MoM vs Pak at 18(19?) years in 92 WC, best batter in 96 WC at 22(?) so why bring up just one innings, would we have made it to the finals if we lost the QF or SF - where SRT scored fifties both times? Or does time/logic flow backward in your world 

 

14 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

Firstly there is no need to use words like weasel out. Im just trying to have a discussion.

 

2013 CT is officially an ODI. That it was shortened is neither here nor there. His only real blot is WC knockouts but the sample size is small. 

 

I am.not interested in SRT vs Kohli but it is funny you mention Kohli was out twice in the CT final but completely brush over Tendu being out about 40 times in Mohali. A 21 year old Kohli in WC 2011 still outscored Tendu in the final and scored more than him in both of Tendu's finals...it doesnt matter because the sample size is small.

 

Have a feeling Kohli will play an iconic innings at some point in 2023 WC knockouts and put this to bed.

 He may or he may not, SRT is still the better ODI & WC performer!

Edited November 6, 2022 by R!TTER

[Lord]

7 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Don't have an opinion on Stokes really but it is amazing how much a bit of luck here and there can change things. He was out in that Headingly test match and survived purely because Aus did not have reviews left. In the WC final Dharmasena the idiot did not know the rules. I guess fortune favours the brave....

 

 

Regarding Kohli the criticism of his ODI big games record is rather exaggerated. He played a very good knock in the CT 2013 final, played a great supporting hand in the 2011 WC final and had a good knock in the CT semi 2017 as well. Also has a WC ton vs Pak and another great knock in the 2019 WC, pressure wise on par with WC final.

 

The 2017 CT F, 2015 WC semi and 2019 WC semi were failures sure but in 2 of those he was chasing improbable targets against dangerous bowling attacks with its tails up under lights....sample size and circumstances are largely mitigating. 

exactly had all the luck in that dream season at home. Did'nt do much after or before

[Dil Dil India]

2 hours ago, R!TTER said:

And yet you bring this up? He was dropped, last I checked Kohli's ton at TB in 2018 test had half a dozen drops, didn't realize drops count as out 

 

 And SRT was MoM vs Pak at 18(19?) years in 92 WC, best batter in 96 WC at 22(?) so why bring up just one innings, would we have made it to the finals if we lost the QF or SF - where SRT scored fifties both times? Or does time/logic flow backward in your world 

 

 He may or he may not, SRT is still the better ODI & WC performer!

Jesus I never mentioned SRT in my original post. You SRT fanboys are really insecure. I grew up watching SRT and I dont want to pick holes in his record. 

 

My only point was that Kohli's WC knockout failures are rather overstated and that he will probably play an iconic knock at some point next year.

 

Re. The bold, lol you are the one who said Kohli was "out" twice in the CT final 2017. If you are simply on a wind up mission, look elsewhere or try on peepee.

[R!TTER]

Or how about you *ing know what you're talking about? You keep digging that hole even deeper don't you!

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2011

Trophy World Cup

Innings in match 2nd innings

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 200

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
BA Stokes (ENG)	2019-2019	6	5	3	278	89	139.00	326	85.27	0	3	0	23	8
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2011-2015	6	5	1	363	117*	90.75	371	97.84	2	1	0	36	4
MS Dhoni (INDIA)	2011-2019	8	7	3	334	91*	83.50	357	93.55	0	3	0	22	7
RG Sharma (INDIA)	2015-2019	6	6	1	369	122*	73.80	417	88.48	3	0	0	44	6
HDRL Thirimanne (SL)	2015-2019	4	4	1	221	139*	73.66	234	94.44	1	1	0	22	2
TM Dilshan (SL)	2011-2015	6	6	1	352	108*	70.40	419	84.00	1	2	0	39	5
JE Root (ENG)	2015-2019	7	7	2	333	107	66.60	384	86.71	2	1	0	34	1
Shakib Al Hasan (BAN)	2011-2019	10	10	1	589	124*	65.44	660	89.24	2	3	0	58	2
AB de Villiers (SA)	2011-2015	7	6	1	326	107*	65.20	324	100.61	1	2	0	28	8
DA Warner (AUS)	2015-2019	4	4	0	247	122	61.75	270	91.48	1	1	0	30	2
KS Williamson (NZ)	2011-2019	8	7	3	238	106*	59.50	312	76.28	1	0	0	21	3
F du Plessis (SA)	2011-2019	10	9	3	345	96*	57.50	424	81.36	0	3	0	29	4
N Pooran (WI)	2019-2019	5	5	1	221	118	55.25	215	102.79	1	0	0	22	7
BB McCullum (NZ)	2011-2015	4	4	0	200	77	50.00	91	219.78	0	3	0	25	14
BRM Taylor (ZIM)	2011-2015	5	5	0	223	80	44.60	256	87.10	0	2	0	22	3
Q de Kock (SA)	2015-2019	6	6	1	215	78*	43.00	224	95.98	0	2	1	25	4
EC Joyce (IRE)	2011-2015	5	5	0	212	84	42.40	262	80.91	0	2	1	24	2
JC Buttler (ENG)	2015-2019	7	5	0	207	103	41.40	184	112.50	1	1	0	19	2
CH Gayle (WI)	2011-2019	8	8	0	306	87	38.25	260	117.69	0	3	0	30	20
Mohammad Hafeez (PAK)	2011-2019	7	7	1	201	61*	33.50	243	82.71	0	1	0	27	2
HM Amla (SA)	2011-2019	10	10	1	295	80*	32.77	352	83.80	0	2	0	28	0
Mushfiqur Rahim (BAN)	2011-2019	10	10	1	284	102*	31.55	347	81.84	1	0	0	23	2
MJ Guptill (NZ)	2011-2019	8	8	1	216	73*	30.85	266	81.20	0	1	0	24	4
V Kohli (INDIA)	2011-2019	8	8	1	212	66	30.28	288	73.61	0	1	0	21	0
Tamim Iqbal (BAN)	2011-2019	10	10	0	297	70	29.70	361	82.27	0	2	1	29	1
Mahmudullah (BAN)	2011-2019	9	8	1	207	69	29.57	274	75.54	0	1	0	16	4

 

This record is while chasing against top 8 sides in WC, in KO's it's even worse! Yes against the likes of Kane, Smith, Root I would still back him because he's objectively the better batter, but you'd have to be doubly blind to not see these horrendous numbers in the best era of batting!

 

I hope you're being paid more than $0.01 per post for defending him 

Edited November 6, 2022 by R!TTER

[Dil Dil India]

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;orderby=batting_average;template=results;trophy=12;type=batting

 

Guys I am trying to spot SRT on this list. Can someone help? I found Harbhajan Singh but no SRT. Maybe our paindoo Ritter who lives on 2 dollars a day and gets turned on by anyone above 4 feet can help.

[R!TTER]

You're talking about a sample size of one, or two in case of SRT, & comparing it to the numbers I showed for Brat - yup on payroll confirmed 

[Vijy]

most clutch ODI cricketer in WCs in last 25 years (starting from 1997) was gilly.

[Gollum]

[R!TTER]

Getting close to peak ATG players ever like Warne, Gilly, Mcgrath - probably in that order!