Why ICF is obsessed with youngsters?

[Vijy]

10 hours ago, Gollum said:

More than that what is annoying about ICFers (not all, but many including posters I rate) is how they start overrating players on the bench or those sidelined. Suddenly Chahal is Warne 2.0, Hooda is Viv Richards (yet to see this guy connect a 140 kph ball in Indian jersey, and we saw his selfless act in Ireland)......Harshal Patel is the second coming of Malinga, Jaddu is modern era Sobers, yeah the same Jadeja who has been screwing us over in T20 WCs since 2009, in every single edition. 

 

Every single player on the bench is suddenly 10x better than the ones playing, every single player not in the squad is suddenly ATG level. Some perspective folks, maybe we aren't overflowing with other wordly talent. Sure selection has often been off radar, but to see folks here pretend this is 1979 WI or 2006 Australia that is being held back by XYZ reasons is funny, and sad at the same time. Delusional Pakistanis behave like this, talent this, X factor that but 500 excuses to explain mediocrity......expect better from our lot. 

don't also forget how unproven U19, U17, U15... and U3 kids are also hyped up this way

[Dil Dil India]

Yes let us bring back more oldies and failures. 55 year old DK is not enough.

[Chakdephatte]

15 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

I don't see any youngsters batting lol How would we know. SKY is no youngsters. but in terms of experience limited experience. SO he is the one kicking ass but for one super innings from Kohli.

 

He is always judged as a senior. "King of soft runs" etc. are tags we associate with experienced players. And you will most probably agree that we have two of the best batsmen in the tournament.

[Norman]

Muhammad Haris - 21 Years old, Pakistan. 

 

Played a grand total/eggsperience of 1 T20 international  before this world Cup. Comes into the team, and entirely changes their batting complexion in two must win games. 

 

 

And here we have the likes of Gill, Pant, Shaw, Samson, Bishnoi etc being kept on the sidelines to accommodate eggsperienced non-performers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Because it's important not have a side filled with 30+ somethings who can suddenly decline . 

 

Look at Australia. I believe apart from Cameron Green and Tim David, everyone is 29 and above and have clocked a lot of miles . 

 

And it's showing in their performances  .

 

NZ dropped Guptill for Allen and it's done them a whole lot of good. 

 

Players who have a lot of natural ability and/or haven't played high intensity cricket for years dont decline at the same rate as those who who don't have nearly as much ability.

 

 

Starc was bowling lightning quick between 2014-2020 across all formats. At 32, he's  a shadow of the bowler he used to be. 

 

Kohli is also clearly not the athlete he used to be. 

 

Forget those guys, we actually still considering Dhawan in ODIs . That is a very poor decision. 

[Dil Dil India]

4 hours ago, Norman said:

Muhammad Haris - 21 Years old, Pakistan. 

 

Played a grand total/eggsperience of 1 T20 international  before this world Cup. Comes into the team, and entirely changes their batting complexion in two must win games. 

 

 

And here we have the likes of Gill, Pant, Shaw, Samson, Bishnoi etc being kept on the sidelines to accommodate eggsperienced non-performers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So true. Boils my blood to see jokers like DK in the mix and Dhawan in ODIs. Team management are chutiyas of the highest order.

[Gollum]

22 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Lol India probably has 15 better spinners & batters in the country than Karthik & Ashwin...  That's just actual reality.   That's why people get frustrated. 

Nobody is questioning Rohit coz we know he is one of our best vs High pace..  

Why stop at just 15?

[Gollum]

Also look at the role when it comes to discussing players. Gill, Samson and Shaw aren't competing with DK, we have enough top 3 candidates in the country. What we lack are finishers, people who can tee off from ball one in final few., especially against hard length pace...can't see many, maybe 2-3 and even that is doubtful. Don't blindly believe IPL numbers, we see what Hooda does at this level, don't we? Even Hardik is finding it tough against pace at the back end of the innings. Bitter pill I know but in some spots (finisher, AR, spin, these 3 most prominent) India lacks personnel to succeed at this level, the ones we fielded here are more or less the best ones available keeping team balance and limitations in mind. Even in IPL we rely on overseas players for such roles, we have an abundance of top 3 bats, abundance of keeper bats, abundance of pace options but can anyone honestly say we have a Miller or Shadab/Rashid in the country who has been kept away from this WC squad?

 

DK sucks yes, but alternative bhi suggest karo na. Hardik's flaws in batting are easily discernible, but after him we have Shivam Dube, is he of international class? Suddenly everyone has turned against Axar and hailing Jadeja as if he won us all previous T20 WCs single handedly, hadd hai yaar, woh bhi rehta toh fielding ke alawa zyada kuch nahi karta and at least with Axar there is the upside of age. Funniest **** I read here is the longing for Chahal, yeah let us just ignore the facts that his batting/fielding are negative and he is hardly a world beater with the ball. 

 

The problems we have in this format, there are no instant fixes, no magic replacements, first we need to accept this. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, Gollum said:

Also look at the role when it comes to discussing players. Gill, Samson and Shaw aren't competing with DK, we have enough top 3 candidates in the country? What we lack are finishers, people who can tee off from ball one in final few., especially against hard length pace...can't see many, maybe 2-3 and even that is doubtful. Don't blindly believe IPL numbers, we see what Hooda does at this level, don't we? Even Hardik is finding it tough against pace at the back end of the innings. Bitter pill I know but in some spots (finisher, AR, spin, these 3 most prominent) India lacks personnel to succeed at this level, the ones we fielded here are more or less the best ones available keeping team balance and limitations in mind. Even in IPL we rely on overseas players for such roles, we have an abundance of top 3 bats, abundance of keeper bats, abundance of pace options but can anyone honestly say we have a Miller or Shadab/Rashid in the country who has been kept away from this WC squad?

 

DK sucks yes, but alternate bhi suggest karo na. Hardik's flaws in batting are easily discernible, but after him we have Shivam Dube, is he of international class? Suddenly everyone has turned against Axar and hailing Jadeja as if he won us all previous T20 WCs single handedly, hadd hai yaar, woh bhi rehta toh fielding ke alawa zyada kuch nahi karta and at least with Axar there is the upside of age. Funniest **** I read here is the longing for Chahal, yeah let us just ignore the facts that his batting/fielding are negative and he is hardly a world beater with the ball. 

 

The problems we have in this format, there are no instant fixes, no magic replacements, first we need to accept this fact. 

best post , i wish i cud give it 10X great post 

[Lone Wolf]

14 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Why stop at just 15?

Well in case of Karthik it is more than right...  Now in Ashwin's case we know he is playing coz he offers batting depth. 

Bishnoi,  Sundar, Sai Kishore,  Kumar Kartikeya,  and there are few decent young T20 spinners. 

Kishore is arguably the best LoI finger spinner in the country who is constantly around the team as a net bowler. 

The thing that we have to go to Ashwin tells us how how royally we wasted last 2-3 years on a failure like Chahal.  Make no mistake Ashwin is a superior option than him every day of the week. 

[Lone Wolf]

6 hours ago, Norman said:

Muhammad Haris - 21 Years old, Pakistan. 

 

Played a grand total/eggsperience of 1 T20 international  before this world Cup. Comes into the team, and entirely changes their batting complexion in two must win games. 

 

 

And here we have the likes of Gill, Pant, Shaw, Samson, Bishnoi etc being kept on the sidelines to accommodate eggsperienced non-performers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed Pakistan works on throwing these guys outta nowhere to the deep end.  Taking bold calls even if they are in middle of a tourney.  Fakhar Zaman CT17 & this Haris dude.. 

They nearly qualified for WC 19 Semi too...  As soon as they dumped Malik & Wahab & brought Haris Sohail & Shaheen...  And boy they went out all guns blazing. 

 

Indian old school approach is joke...  We usually keep backing out of form players...  A guy like Chahal who isn't good enough for a high pressure WC game acc to TM gets picked in NZ tour as well lmao...  One would actually feel sorry for Bishnoi. 

[Gollum]

57 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Well in case of Karthik it is more than right...  

Bhai, again role dekho. You can't bring in Gill or Samson when you suggest alternatives for DK. Some players work just in top 3, Samson is inept outside top 3 even in IPL, this is a WC we are talking about. 

 

There aren't 15 players in India who can do DK's role better, that is too unique/specialized a role which historically we have been struggling to fill. Granted DK is mentally not that strong, fidgety etc. but the role he does, I can't name 3-4 better ones from Eng and WI, forget 15 from India. We must accept we lack personnel in some roles, otherwise we are simply in a state of delusion. Jo bhi hai, at least skillwise DK is a better option, just pray that he comes good if he plays the SF, waise bhi this is his last ICC event.

 

We will struggle to fill that role even in next WC because we outsource that job in IPL to overseas players. All our best prospects want to bat in top 3, nobody wants to step out of his comfort zone, if they want moolah/fame/endorsements, top 3 is the preferred choice....open secret. 

57 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Now in Ashwin's case we know he is playing coz he offers batting depth. 

Bishnoi,  Sundar, Sai Kishore,  Kumar Kartikeya,  and there are few decent young T20 spinners. 

Kishore is arguably the best LoI finger spinner in the country who is constantly around the team as a net bowler. 

The thing that we have to go to Ashwin tells us how how royally we wasted last 2-3 years on a failure like Chahal.  Make no mistake Ashwin is a superior option than him every day of the week. 

Bishnoi granted, should have been in the squad but in place of Chahal, not Ashwin. He isn't Ashwin's competitor. Team balance bhi dekho bhai, as such our quicks can't hold the bat, either compromise the quality of our pace unit or fit in someone like Ashwin who isn't a total mug with the bat. So many factors to consider. Even had we played Bishnoi in the  XI maybe we would have had to play him in tandem with Thakur (to account for batting depth issue)...again I like Thakur but he had plenty of opportunities to seal his spot in the squad, he didn't deliver in the lead up to this event and I fear irreversible decline has set in. (age, fitness, honeymoon period yada yada) Team balance, roles, all are important, how you structure a team is equally important. 

 

Kishore has done well in SMAT (like several TN spinners), but even Shahrukh becomes Andre Russel there, not an accurate indicator of quality. IPL mein zyada khela nahi, whatever little I saw of him, doesn't look like a world beater. What about his batting, since his competitor is Axar? For me it was a toss up between Axar and Krunal once Jadeja was ruled out....I don't take IPL exploits as gospel (eg. hype of Tewatia, but is he even trusted to complete his overs quota in IPL?), ok they are important, but not the be-all and end-all. Like it or not Axar was the best spin AR option in the country. He hasn't done well till now but it's ok, even good players can have bad tournaments. Logically it wasn't bad selection, with his height/bounce at least I expected him to do decently with the ball. I still rate him as a better white ball option than Jadeja, let us see....

 

Ashwin's alternatives were Sundar and Gowtham....I don't even want to discuss the latter. Rate Sundar but atm he is a poor T20 option, way way inferior version of Ashwin. Not a big upgrade as fielder, and an inferior hitter....what can I say about bowling? Moreover he was given plenty of chances, TM clearly wanted him to take over Ashwin's role but woh bhi toh 90% time injured tha na? Anwyay long way to go for him...I don't see him as a natural T20 player, think he will do much better in test cricket as batting AR.  

 

No use of comparing our guys with ROTW, we can only look at available options in India.  

Edited November 7, 2022 by Gollum

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Also look at the role when it comes to discussing players. Gill, Samson and Shaw aren't competing with DK, we have enough top 3 candidates in the country. What we lack are finishers, people who can tee off from ball one in final few., especially against hard length pace...can't see many, maybe 2-3 and even that is doubtful. Don't blindly believe IPL numbers, we see what Hooda does at this level, don't we? Even Hardik is finding it tough against pace at the back end of the innings. Bitter pill I know but in some spots (finisher, AR, spin, these 3 most prominent) India lacks personnel to succeed at this level, the ones we fielded here are more or less the best ones available keeping team balance and limitations in mind. Even in IPL we rely on overseas players for such roles, we have an abundance of top 3 bats, abundance of keeper bats, abundance of pace options but can anyone honestly say we have a Miller or Shadab/Rashid in the country who has been kept away from this WC squad?

 

DK sucks yes, but alternative bhi suggest karo na. Hardik's flaws in batting are easily discernible, but after him we have Shivam Dube, is he of international class? Suddenly everyone has turned against Axar and hailing Jadeja as if he won us all previous T20 WCs single handedly, hadd hai yaar, woh bhi rehta toh fielding ke alawa zyada kuch nahi karta and at least with Axar there is the upside of age. Funniest **** I read here is the longing for Chahal, yeah let us just ignore the facts that his batting/fielding are negative and he is hardly a world beater with the ball. 

 

The problems we have in this format, there are no instant fixes, no magic replacements, first we need to accept this. 

We don't have options in T20 bhai, hardly any of our players want to bat at no 5-6. Few names which I can recall apart from DK, Pandya are Shahrukh Khan, Senior Pandya, Shivam Dube, Venkatesh Iyer (TBH he didn't do much bad), Abdul Samad and Abhinav Manohar. But as that position doesn't guarantee consistency thus no one will remember those players and will go ga ga over the stat padders.

I hope if likes of Raj Bawa picks up the ante and do the work, Sundar isn't a power hitter but he is also a capable batter atleast for longer formats. Tewatia is more suited for no 7.

Edited November 7, 2022 by singhvivek141

[Dil Dil India]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Also look at the role when it comes to discussing players. Gill, Samson and Shaw aren't competing with DK, we have enough top 3 candidates in the country. What we lack are finishers, people who can tee off from ball one in final few., especially against hard length pace...can't see many, maybe 2-3 and even that is doubtful. Don't blindly believe IPL numbers, we see what Hooda does at this level, don't we? Even Hardik is finding it tough against pace at the back end of the innings. Bitter pill I know but in some spots (finisher, AR, spin, these 3 most prominent) India lacks personnel to succeed at this level, the ones we fielded here are more or less the best ones available keeping team balance and limitations in mind. Even in IPL we rely on overseas players for such roles, we have an abundance of top 3 bats, abundance of keeper bats, abundance of pace options but can anyone honestly say we have a Miller or Shadab/Rashid in the country who has been kept away from this WC squad?

 

DK sucks yes, but alternative bhi suggest karo na. Hardik's flaws in batting are easily discernible, but after him we have Shivam Dube, is he of international class? Suddenly everyone has turned against Axar and hailing Jadeja as if he won us all previous T20 WCs single handedly, hadd hai yaar, woh bhi rehta toh fielding ke alawa zyada kuch nahi karta and at least with Axar there is the upside of age. Funniest **** I read here is the longing for Chahal, yeah let us just ignore the facts that his batting/fielding are negative and he is hardly a world beater with the ball. 

 

The problems we have in this format, there are no instant fixes, no magic replacements, first we need to accept this. 

 

How will we know if we don't play the youngsters? Should we bring back Tendulkar because he can probably still play spin better than most of the current jokers?

 

Chahal is a plonker who wilts under pressure, I agree with you. Jadeja I never rated in LOIs, most selfish and overrated LOI cricketer in recent years especially in T20.

 

There is no reason for us not to play guys like Ishan Kishan, Siraj etc. 

 

We could easily have gone with something like:

 

1. Kishan

2. Rohit

3. Kohli

4. SKY

5. Kela (if he must play)

6. Pant

7. Pandya

+ 4 bowlers

 

DK and our second opener are the biggest issues at the moment with the batting. And we pick trundlers who bowl 120k on fast and bouncy pitches. Say what you want about Pak but they do have guys who bowl 140k consistently at least in T20s. Pace isn't everything but if we keep playing clowns like boobie and other trundlers even in bilaterals, then we will lose the fast bowling culture that Kohli and Shastri inculcated in their time together, one of the few good things they did.There is no vision, no planning, we are playing Dhawan in ODIs and Umesh Yadav in T20s...just dumb as bricks from the TM.

 

Even from the current squad Pant is miles better than the useless choker DK. Still can't forget how this finisher peed in his pants when 2 off 2 where needed. Thankfully Ash is clutch. Pant can fail 20 games in a row and he would still be a better choice than this wimp.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Dil Dil India

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Also look at the role when it comes to discussing players. Gill, Samson and Shaw aren't competing with DK, we have enough top 3 candidates in the country. What we lack are finishers, people who can tee off from ball one in final few., especially against hard length pace...can't see many, maybe 2-3 and even that is doubtful. Don't blindly believe IPL numbers, we see what Hooda does at this level, don't we? Even Hardik is finding it tough against pace at the back end of the innings. Bitter pill I know but in some spots (finisher, AR, spin, these 3 most prominent) India lacks personnel to succeed at this level, the ones we fielded here are more or less the best ones available keeping team balance and limitations in mind. Even in IPL we rely on overseas players for such roles, we have an abundance of top 3 bats, abundance of keeper bats, abundance of pace options but can anyone honestly say we have a Miller or Shadab/Rashid in the country who has been kept away from this WC squad?

 

DK sucks yes, but alternative bhi suggest karo na. Hardik's flaws in batting are easily discernible, but after him we have Shivam Dube, is he of international class? Suddenly everyone has turned against Axar and hailing Jadeja as if he won us all previous T20 WCs single handedly, hadd hai yaar, woh bhi rehta toh fielding ke alawa zyada kuch nahi karta and at least with Axar there is the upside of age. Funniest **** I read here is the longing for Chahal, yeah let us just ignore the facts that his batting/fielding are negative and he is hardly a world beater with the ball. 

 

The problems we have in this format, there are no instant fixes, no magic replacements, first we need to accept this. 

 

Always backed DK for the same reason. He can play pace. But moment he plays an ICC tournament he turns into a mental midget. I never expected Pant or Samson to do much better. But he has confidence issues. You could see from his keeping. Incredibly straight forward misses from behind the wickets. Stumpings/Runouts/Catches. Sure he did save some boundaries.  Those 2 Litton Das drops could have buried us. Even when he was young, he was known for pulling off blinders missing straight forward ones.  That risk you have to constantly carry. Pant rarely misses straight forward chances.  So the gamble of playing a 37 years old can be worth only if he clicks with bat as his keeping is always going to be poor.    This is in all likelihood last series of DK. Not like he is playing for his place. He has nothing to be afraid of. He just has to go out and express himself.  But that is not happening.  I have zero expectations from Pant as well. But he messes up less compared to DK when it comes to keeping.  If they seriously wanted DK to flourish they should have used  him ahead of Axar patel in the bilaterals. They constantly sent Axar ahead of him.  

 

Simple rule should be when you back someone he has to be good at atleast in two departments. If he is good  only in one department he is going to be useless when he fails in that one department. Examples, Chahal, DK, Bhuvi, Arshdeep, Siraj, Shami.  One-dimensional. Guys like Thakur, Chahar can make up in t he other department.  Axar despite his bashing of West INdian  pie chuckers he is largely a no.8 batsman who can bat a bit. In Aussie conditions he looks even more hopeless trying to get on top of the ball. May be in Adelaide slow pitch he can do something. I still don't trust him. This is definitely far from the best India can offer.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[Lone Wolf]

48 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Bhai, again role dekho. You can't bring in Gill or Samson when you suggest alternatives for DK. Some players work just in top 3, Samson is inept outside top 3 even in IPL, this is a WC we are talking about. 

 

There aren't 15 players in India who can do DK's role better, that is too unique/specialized a role which historically we have been struggling to fill. Granted DK is mentally not that strong, fidgety etc. but the role he does, I can't name 3-4 better ones from Eng and WI, forget 15 from India. We must accept we lack personnel in some roles, otherwise we are simply in a state of delusion. Jo bhi hai, at least skillwise DK is a better option, just pray that he comes good if he plays the SF, waise bhi this is his last ICC event.

 

We will struggle to fill that role even in next WC because we outsource that job in IPL to overseas players. All our best prospects want to bat in top 3, nobody wants to step out of his comfort zone, if they want moolah/fame/endorsements, top 3 is the preferred choice....open secret. 

Bishnoi granted, should have been in the squad but in place of Chahal, not Ashwin. He isn't Ashwin's competitor. Team balance bhi dekho bhai, as such our quicks can't hold the bat, either compromise the quality of our pace unit or fit in someone like Ashwin who isn't a total mug with the bat. So many factors to consider. Even had we played Bishnoi in the  XI maybe we would have had to play him in tandem with Thakur (to account for batting depth issue)...again I like Thakur but he had plenty of opportunities to seal his spot in the squad, he didn't deliver in the lead up to this event and I fear irreversible decline has set in. (age, fitness, honeymoon period yada yada) Team balance, roles, all are important, how you structure a team is equally important. 

 

Kishore has done well in SMAT (like several TN spinners), but even Shahrukh becomes Andre Russel there, not an accurate indicator of quality. IPL mein zyada khela nahi, whatever little I saw of him, doesn't look like a world beater. What about his batting, since his competitor is Axar? For me it was a toss up between Axar and Krunal once Jadeja was ruled out....I don't take IPL exploits as gospel (eg. hype of Tewatia, but is he even trusted to complete his overs quota in IPL?), ok they are important, but not the be-all and end-all. Like it or not Axar was the best spin AR option in the country. He hasn't done well till now but it's ok, even good players can have bad tournaments. Logically it wasn't bad selection, with his height/bounce at least I expected him to do decently with the ball. I still rate him as a better white ball option than Jadeja, let us see....

 

Ashwin's alternatives were Sundar and Gowtham....I don't even want to discuss the latter. Rate Sundar but atm he is a poor T20 option, way way inferior version of Ashwin. Not a big upgrade as fielder, and an inferior hitter....what can I say about bowling? Moreover he was given plenty of chances, TM clearly wanted him to take over Ashwin's role but woh bhi toh 90% time injured tha na? Anwyay long way to go for him...I don't see him as a natural T20 player, think he will do much better in test cricket as batting AR.  

 

No use of comparing our guys with ROTW, we can only look at available options in India.  

You raise right points...  But even the best are struggling in Australia at finishing not like DK who is a proven mental midget. 

Moeen Maxwell,  Stoinis,  Stubbs,  Klassen all have more or less failed here at finishing (not upto DK level tho) 

One can argue that Samson is batting lower down the order for us in ODIs..  Vs WI,  Zim & SA &,  did well there...  Kinda like a specialist batter with range against pace & spin.   Your usual tonty tonty specialist hitters are a massive failure in Australia with big boundaries & pace & bounce. 

You needs proper batters to do the job here. 

It has been a weird sort of tourney but they should have also kept someone like Iyer in backups around who is mentally stronger & can come out firing when called up. 

Kela can always have the gloves too.  DK's keeping looks worse than Parthiv Patel tbh. 

 

 

[Number]

It is one thing to say that selectors and management trusted experience more than youngsters in a high profile tournament, which is arguably fair.

 

But to say that a billion population cricket crazy nation doesn't produce enough talent to replace 40 year olds is joke. 

 

our B teams or near B teams have pretty much competed well in all formats in recent times in all their assignments.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Number

[Number]

Eggsperience of Rohit, Kela, Shami, Bhuvi, Ashwin delivers another knock out punch. Yeah so why we are obsessed with youngsters ?

[Frustrated]

This is why we are obsessed with youngsters.   No further explanation required.   

[Lord]

and that is why we need youngsters

 

 

Insanity is doing same thing and expecting different results.

 

We are tired of same guys failing again and again and keep playing. Young team may lose too, but atleast some freshness and hope will be there