Should ICC unban chucking and tampering to make PAK bowlers look talented once again?

[nevada]

23 hours ago, zen said:

The thread is trying to say that Pakistani pace bowlers in general were mostly successful due to “other” reasons. 
 

At the end of the day, one also has to note that India pacers do not even bowl much at home while relying on spinners to perform on tailored pitches. 

 

 

Also, Indian bowling was toothless in the 4th innings in not just one but 3 overseas games where the opposition bowlers had restricted our batters to a low score. This current game in Pakistan seems to be on a road. It is a disgrace for the curator, not the bowlers.

[Adamant]

Indian bowlers would never concede such runs on any pitch against any lineup. 

 

The reason is simple, our fast bowlers have made a place in the team by grinding in domestics and A tours and have the stamina to bowl at the same pace throughout the match except some rare cases. 

 

On the other hand Pakistan pacers are bred on t20s and tape balls and haven't been through the same grind as the Indian. 

 

For example Rauf was a tape ball bowler who became a t20 specialist and is now being promoted in tests, this is completely illogical. 

 

Same goes for Naseem who has hardly played much domestics, they think that they can pluck out young Waseems Waqars and Amirs, but in the recent days this theory of picking teenagers isn't helping them as Wasim and Waqar come but once in a generation. 

 

Their third bowler Mohammed Ali isn't test standard. 

 

Also their youngsters(mostly bowlers) are t20 oriented

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

Difficult predict events such as a 30 odd all out by Ind in Adelaide. 

 

As a bowling unit, Eng ran through India here - https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-india-2020-21-1243364/india-vs-england-1st-test-1243384/full-scorecard

 

Where most would have assumed that Ind would beat Eng based on whatever parameters. And then India had to rely on pitches that assisted spinners more. 
 

Now if Pak creates turners, its pacers would bowl in relatively limited spells and be “fresher” to not run out of steam often. 
 

PS talking about the current Pak-Eng test, Pak is not playing bowlers like Afridi, and now have bowled out Eng for 650 odd.

 

 

Not talking about one off events or even infrequent events. 

 

The Indian test match pace attack is a good quality one by any parameter. ( We can obviously improve it further by introducing height and bounce and some raw pace ) 

 

Whereas the Pakistani pace attack have not performed with any kind of frequency in test matches in the last few years.

 

 

 

 

[zen]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not talking about one off events or even infrequent events. 

 

The Indian test match pace attack is a good quality one by any parameter. ( We can obviously improve it further by introducing height and bounce and some raw pace ) 

 

Whereas the Pakistani pace attack have not performed with any kind of frequency in test matches in the last few years.

 

 

 

We are discussing a rare event like 500 scored in 70 odd overs ... Much like a 30 odd all out 

 

SL once scored 900+ runs versus Ind, which is also difficult to predict if viewed from a normal (therefore average) PoV. 

 

On such a track, w/ Eng firing, you never know which attack can be put to sword (here Pak was without Afridi) 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by zen

[express bowling]

40 minutes ago, zen said:

 

We are discussing a rare event like 500 scored in 70 odd overs ... Much like a 30 odd all out 

 

SL once scored 900+ runs versus Ind, which is also difficult to predict if viewed from a normal (therefore average) PoV. 

 

On such a track, w/ Eng firing, you never know which attack can be put to sword (here Pak was without Afridi) 

 

 

 

I think the discussion is about the general lack of quality of the Pakistan test match pace attack, using the occasion of the 504 in 75 overs.

[zen]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I think the discussion is about the general lack of quality of the Pakistan test match pace attack, using the occasion of the 504 in 75 overs.

I would pick Pak pace bowlers like Afridi over any Ind’s pacer even in Test matches. 
 

I am not sure if Indian pace bowlers (used to rely on conditions) can be any more effective than Pak’s in heavy batting friendly conditions. On their bad day, they are as liable to go for quick runs. India usually does not prepare such pitches at home, where pitches are designed to help spinners.  
 

If Indian pace bowlers bowled regularly on such pitches, I would not be surprised to see them even getting injured more. 
 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by zen

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, zen said:

I would pick Pak pace bowlers like Afridi over any Ind’s pacer even in Test matches. 
 

I am not sure if Indian pace bowlers (used to rely on conditions) can be any more effective than Pak’s in heavy batting friendly conditions. On their bad day, they are as liable to go for quick runs. India usually does not prepare such pitches at home, where pitches are designed to help spinners.  
 

If Indian pace bowlers bowled regularly on such pitches, I would not be surprised to see them even getting injured more. 
 

 

 

 

You can compare their performances away from home against big teams. (  Both teams bowling in similar conditions ) 

 

Bumrah, Shami, Siraj and Ishant have played big parts in our 2 Test Series victories in Australia and the 2 -2 drawn series in England. And we were leading in 1-0 in SA too when Siraj got injured.

 

While the current bunch of Pakistani pacers have lost all their last 4 Test series in every SENA country. ( the tougher teams apart from India who do not play against Pak in tests ) 

 

Afridi averages almost 38 in Tests in SENA. While Bumrah averages 24.5 and Shami 32.6.  (  Bowling in similar conditions ) 

 

 

[zen]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

You can compare their performances away from home against big teams. (  Both teams bowling in similar conditions ) 

 

Bumrah, Shami, Siraj and Ishant have played big parts in our 2 Test Series victories in Australia and the 2 -2 drawn series in England. And we were leading in 1-0 in SA too when Siraj got injured.

 

While the current bunch of Pakistani pacers have lost all their last 4 Test series in every SENA country. ( the tougher teams apart from India who do not play against Pak in tests ) 

 

Afridi averages almost 38 in Tests in SENA. While Bumrah averages 24.5 and Shami 32.6.  (  Bowling in similar conditions ) 

 

 

In 2023, I would go with Afridi, who also brings in the left arm angle and can swing the ball as well … Winning and losing depends upon a variety of factors, and so do stats, which are more useful for retired or past their peak players. Upcoming players are making new stats. 
 

 

[putrevus]

So finally some morons have realized winning and losing depends on lot of factors.

[express bowling]

18 hours ago, zen said:

In 2023, I would go with Afridi, who also brings in the left arm angle and can swing the ball as well … Winning and losing depends upon a variety of factors, and so do stats, which are more useful for retired or past their peak players. Upcoming players are making new stats. 
 

 

 

What one's objective is, plays the biggest part in success or failure. Looking at Pakistan cricket and it's cricketers, one feels that their focus is not on test cricket. 

 

Till the time I see Afridi perform in atleast 5 tests against big teams, there would be no basis to feel that he is focusing on test cricket. 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

What one's objective is, plays the biggest part in success or failure. Looking at Pakistan cricket and it's cricketers, one feels that their focus is not on test cricket. 

 

Till the time I see Afridi perform in atleast 5 tests against big teams, there would be no basis to feel that he is focusing on test cricket. 

When I am picking players across teams, it is in a way like they are playing for the same team. Therefore,  it is not Pak v Ind v whoever for me. 

If Afridi bowled in India like conditions, where pitches tend to help bowlers esp. spinners, his focus could be different. 
 

 

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, zen said:

When I am picking players across teams, it is in a way like they are playing for the same team. Therefore,  it is not Pak v Ind v whoever for me. 

If Afridi bowled in India like conditions, where pitches tend to help bowlers esp. spinners, his focus could be different. 
 

 

Afridi will not bowl for India. He will be in the Pakistani setup and his focus will be what it is now. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Afridi will not bowl for India. He will be in the Pakistani setup and his focus will be what it is now. 

The point is the advantage/disadvantage of the “set up” (which includes pitches) should be factored in too. 
 

In a scenario where all players play in similar set ups, bowlers like Afridi are ahead in the subcon esp. with the talent (and uniqueness where applicable) that they have (left arm angle, swing, bounce, pace, …)

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by zen

[express bowling]

57 minutes ago, zen said:

The point is the advantage/disadvantage of the “set up” (which includes pitches) should be factored in too. 
 

In a scenario where all players play in similar set ups, bowlers like Afridi are ahead in the subcon esp. with the talent (and uniqueness where applicable) that they have (left arm angle, swing, bounce, pace, …)
 

 

 

Everything else remaining equal, I rate Bumrah much higher as a test bowler than Afridi. Even Shami.

 

While Afridi would be ahead as a T20I bowler as he can take eickets upfront.

 

P.S -- If Holding were an Indisn, he would have retired as a Ranji bowler who, in all probability  never got a test cap. He wasn't that accurate on many occasions.  And Srinath might have been an ATG in thd 1990s Pakistani setup. But we have to accept things as they are. 

[zen]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

 

Everything else remaining equal, I rate Bumrah much higher as a test bowler than Afridi. Even Shami.

 

While Afridi would be ahead as a T20I bowler as he can take eickets upfront.

 

 

 

Good to know your opinion ... As I said, I would prefer a left arm pace bowler who can bring in a variety of skills in all formats 

 

 

Quote

P.S -- If Holding were an Indisn, he would have retired as a Ranji bowler who, in all probability  never got a test cap. He wasn't that accurate on many occasions.  And Srinath might have been an ATG in thd 1990s Pakistani setup. But we have to accept things as they are. 

 

Not sure about those things 

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

 

 

Not sure about those things 

 

 

One can never be sure about what has not happened.

 

And we can argue about Srinath. But I am 98% sure of the Holding case. And not just Holding. It would be the same regarding any quick bowler who is not very accurate.

 

I would request you to listen to our domestic cricket commentary by Indian ex-cricketers and the raw hatred they display towards Indian quick bowlers. And these are the guys who become Indian selectors. 

[zen]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

One can never be sure about what has not happened.

 

And we can argue about Srinath. But I am 98% sure of the Holding case. And not just Holding. It would be the same regarding any quick bowler who is not very accurate.

 

I would request you to listen to our domestic cricket commentary by Indian ex-cricketers and the raw hatred they display towards Indian quick bowlers. And these are the guys who become Indian selectors. 

 

Holding debuted in 1975 and was good enough to walk into any side ... And there were not many Indian batsmen who played pace well in Ranji at that time

 

India national players were struggling to play quick bowlers like Patterson on many occasions 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by zen

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Holding debuted in 1975 and was good enough to walk into any side ... And there were not many Indian batsmen who played pace well in Ranji at that time

 

India national players were struggling to play quick bowlers like Patterson on many occasions 

 

 

 

The selection criterion of pace bowlers for Team India have been very very different from other countries from 1932 to 2014 and from 2022 again. 

 

Pacers were selected on the basis of perceived accuracy and not on the the basis of wicket taking abity or how dangerous they would be as bowlers.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by express bowling

[zen]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

 

The selection criterion of pace bowlers for Team India have been very very different than other countries from 1932 to 2014 and from 2022 again. 

 

Pacers were selected on the basis of perceived accuracy and not on the the basis of wicket taking abity or how dangerous they would be as bowlers.

 

 

I understand but that does not necessarily equate to Holding would not have played for India 

 

 

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I understand but that does not necessarily equate to Holding would not have played for India 

 

 

 

Was Holding a very accurate bowler  ?

 

I have warched him real time.e in many matches .... and he was not.