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Majestic

Who are India's best pacers in their ODIs history

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37 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Let us also look at total international wickets of all fast bowlers for India :-

 

Kapil Dev - 687( AVG 28)

Zaheer Khan - 597( AVG 31)

Javagal Srinath - 551( AVG 29)

Ishant Sharma - 434( AVG 32)

Mohammad Shami - 399(AVG 26)

Ajit Agarkar - 349(AVG 31)

Jasprit Bumrah - 319(AVG 22)

Irfan Pathan - 301( AVG 29)

 

Bumrah and Shami are well behind in terms of wickets tally compared to top three.

Shami missed many matches due to our TM's fetish of playing Bhuvi.

Else he would have crossed 250 wickets in ODI by now.

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53 minutes ago, Majestic said:

They should play more and pick more wickets. 


They are playing enough cricket unless impacted by injuries or work load management/rotation. No player should milk a cricket team for personal stats!
 

As for rating bowlers, Procter, Bond, Bishop, etc., are all rated high despite relatively less “overall tally” (meaningless stats imo) of wickets. 

Edited by zen
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48 minutes ago, zen said:


They are playing enough cricket unless impacted by injuries or work load management/rotation. No player should milk a cricket team for personal stats!
 

As for rating bowlers, Procter, Bond, Bishop, etc., are all rated high despite relatively less “overall tally” (meaningless stats imo) of wickets. 

If you play more, your average is bound to hurt more. If Bumrah plays 3 tests and skip two tests, it is most likely that he will end up with better average and economy than if he played all 5 tests of the series.

 

This was a negative which Kapil, Srinath and Zak went through.

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2 hours ago, zen said:


They are playing enough cricket unless impacted by injuries or work load management/rotation. No player should milk a cricket team for personal stats!
 

As for rating bowlers, Procter, Bond, Bishop, etc., are all rated high despite relatively less “overall tally” (meaningless stats imo) of wickets. 

If you play more, your average is bound to hurt more. If Bumrah plays 3 tests and skip two tests, it is most likely that he will end up with better average and economy than if he played all 5 tests of the series.

 

This was a negative which Kapil, Srinath and Zak went through.

 

They are rated high due to peer reputation but had they picked 300-400 test wickets at same average then they would have been considered ATG. This is where there is a difference between Marshall, McGrath, Akram, Donald, Steyn, Pollock, Ambrose, Anderson, Kapil and say, Philander, Fleming, Caddick, Hoggard or Gillispie.

Edited by Majestic
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2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Shami missed many matches due to our TM's fetish of playing Bhuvi.

Else he would have crossed 250 wickets in ODI by now.

250 is too much.. probably 30-40 wickets more than what it is for him. He had injuries which forced him to miss out quite a few games and his performance also was not always extraordinary.

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7 hours ago, raki05 said:

@sandeep what you have to say about Bhuvi now, who has been one of the worst odi bowler played for so long with overall 35 avg and against sena giving competition to barber Azam with 74 avg.

"cumulative" career averages are often misleading.  Ishant's cumulative test average was atrocious in 2018, but in the 5 years past 2015, his performances were world class.  

 

You are only serving up demonstrations of your limited grasp of cricket and inability to process such basics when you go on such rants - I'm not interested in elementary school playground "arguments" of  "lol lol, the player YOU like is a Sucks".  As far as my opinion on bhuvi at present is concerned, I expressed it in the thread where another poster was asking about it earlier this week...

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6 hours ago, Majestic said:

Irfan was a quality bowler till he was good enough. Problem was he faded away after few good years which is why ended up with only 170 wickets.

 

By 2006, he was having 114 wickets at 25 with economy of 5.

He didn't really fade away, he was our best player in the Oz tri series win in 2008, then I'm not 100% sure what happened but he did fell out of favor with the TM/Dhongi & may be even selectors! He should've played a lot more if there were multiple forces working against him at the time, FFS Undercutter played a test in SA & he never did :facepalm:

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12 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

He didn't really fade away, he was our best player in the Oz tri series win in 2008, then I'm not 100% sure what happened but he did fell out of favor with the TM/Dhongi & may be even selectors! He should've played a lot more if there were multiple forces working against him at the time, FFS Undercutter played a test in SA & he never did :facepalm:

his last game was a MOTM performance

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56 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

He didn't really fade away, he was our best player in the Oz tri series win in 2008, then I'm not 100% sure what happened but he did fell out of favor with the TM/Dhongi & may be even selectors! He should've played a lot more if there were multiple forces working against him at the time, FFS Undercutter played a test in SA & he never did :facepalm:

In ODIs, his performance was down. He averaged 45 and 42 in 2007 and 2008. His average was worst among all other Indian pacers in that CB tri- series 2008.

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Series/SeriesAnalysis_ODI.asp?SeriesCode=0671&Scope=03#bowl

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

"cumulative" career averages are often misleading.  Ishant's cumulative test average was atrocious in 2018, but in the 5 years past 2015, his performances were world class.  

 

You are only serving up demonstrations of your limited grasp of cricket and inability to process such basics when you go on such rants - I'm not interested in elementary school playground "arguments" of  "lol lol, the player YOU like is a Sucks".  As far as my opinion on bhuvi at present is concerned, I expressed it in the thread where another poster was asking about it earlier this week...

Is your keypad alright ??? Hope you dint break your phone/laptop. You are performing worst than Rahul baba spokes persons who has to justify Rahul mediocrity on media day in day out :phehe:. Enjoy your sunday!!.

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6 hours ago, Majestic said:

If you play more, your average is bound to hurt more. If Bumrah plays 3 tests and skip two tests, it is most likely that he will end up with better average and economy than if he played all 5 tests of the series.

 

This was a negative which Kapil, Srinath and Zak went through.

 

They are rated high due to peer reputation but had they picked 300-400 test wickets at same average then they would have been considered ATG. This is where there is a difference between Marshall, McGrath, Akram, Donald, Steyn, Pollock, Ambrose, Anderson, Kapil and say, Philander, Fleming, Caddick, Hoggard or Gillispie.


Averages depends upon the quality of a player not how many games one plays unless playing past his prime, which cricketers should ideally avoid.
 

Anyone who has played cricket over a period of time has created enough sample size to be judged based on his pros and cons. 

I doubt anyone is here is rating bowlers based on averages only. 

 

Kapil (or Botham) is rated less as an “ATG” bowler. He is rated more as an AR. I would pick a Bishop or a Bond over Kapil as a bowler.  No one who actually watched cricket would group Kapil with Marshall, McGrath, Donald, Akram, etc. 

 

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16 hours ago, zen said:


Averages depends upon the quality of a player not how many games one plays unless playing past his prime, which cricketers should ideally avoid.
 

Anyone who has played cricket over a period of time has created enough sample size to be judged based on his pros and cons. 

I doubt anyone is here is rating bowlers based on averages only. 

 

Kapil (or Botham) is rated less as an “ATG” bowler. He is rated more as an AR. I would pick a Bishop or a Bond over Kapil as a bowler.  No one who actually watched cricket would group Kapil with Marshall, McGrath, Donald, Akram, etc. 

 

Even as AR kapil is below hadlee, imran. On par with Botham. Actually I am not even sure if he is on par with Botham in tests but perhaps odi. 

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On 1/21/2023 at 9:39 AM, SRT100 said:

Im sure in one series didnt he get like 6 consecutive ducks against Australia in Australia?

 

Maybe derailed his bowling confidence lol.

Coincidentally,he was the main architect of India's famous Adelaide win on India's next tour picking 6e

WWickets in the second innings,lol paving India's way

 

Edited by Suhaan
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4 hours ago, speedracer said:

Agarkar was a very good odi bowler but for some reason it never translated to tests sadly.

Problem happens with the manner they take wickets, IIRC most of the Agarkar's wicket were caught in outfield instead of Bowled, LBW, Caught by keeper or slips.

 

That becomes an issue in Tests where there are bigger gaps in the outfield.

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On 1/22/2023 at 8:18 AM, Lord said:

his last game was a MOTM performance

That has been India's standard practice for while the other names that come to mind Amit Mishra getting MoM in his last game against NZ and the Pragyan Ojha got MoM in his last game against WI (though this was Test). I am sure there might be many more so stop putting logic behind selection made by jokers.

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9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Problem happens with the manner they take wickets, IIRC most of the Agarkar's wicket were caught in outfield instead of Bowled, LBW, Caught by keeper or slips.

 

That becomes an issue in Tests where there are bigger gaps in the outfield.

Spoke like Someone who has no clue about Agarkar and how he picked up wickets and does not even bother to check, Agarkar was a pacy bowler, he wasn't consistent in Tests which is the reason for his lack of wickets in that format. Lets give you some stats:

Agarkar's dismissal split

LBW - 38 (22 in the all time list in ODIs), only Zaheer with 46 and Kapil with 41 such dismissals ahead among Indian bowlers

Bowled - 71 (18 in the all time list in ODIs), Srinath with 80, Kapil with 79 and Zaheer with 78 ahead of him among Indian bowlers

Caught behind (Keeper) - 54 (16th in the all time list in ODIs) only Srinath with 57 is higher among Indian bowlers.

C&B - 11

Stats Source - Howstat

 

So Agarkar has 120 wickets in ODI out of 288 without assists. 54 caught behind by the keeper. He also is the only bowler to feature in most 4 wicket hauls in ODI in the top 25 with 12 such instances. 

 

Even his caught wickets were of batters pulling to square leg or caught at point. Every bowler has batters slogging them in the final overs to be caught at the boundary. That does not make them bad bowlers. Agarkar was a very good white ball bowler, his only problem was consistency. He was wayward and his pace meant that he went for lots of runs.

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