Let’s do a fair assessment of : Ashwin & Jaddu vs. Kumble- Bhajji on Indian pitches.

[Vilander]

Kumble never turned the ball so much so that teams used to play him as medium pacer at times and found some success,but he had bounce and was known for gritty cricket. Harbhajan was in great form for some period and then pretty ordinary for a long time, he used to be called dartbhajan here during his slump.. ashwin and jadeja are on an other level in terms of control they have over opposition in a variety of pitches and match situation over a longer time. Kumble ofcourse had a longer career, which neither might have.  Jealously aside i think Ashwin and Jadeja are better cricketers than Harbhajan, kumble had a longer career at international level and thats something.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Vilander

[Serpico]

Wish we played Pakistan when misbah-younis were there. If Ash-jadrja managed to defeat them in uae at their peak, that would sealed their legacy 

[Rightarmfast]

It is not as if Bhajji did not have a good bowling attack alongside him. By the time he was a permanent fixture, we had bowlers like Agarkar, Zaheer, Nehra, Pathan, sreesanth etc. These bowlers were just one notch below bumrah and Shami. I dont recall Bhajji being a threat to the opposition, especially abroad. he himself achieved success on spinning tracks of India. Wonder why he keeps cribbing now, if not jealousy.

[speedracer]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

It is not as if Bhajji did not have a good bowling attack alongside him. By the time he was a permanent fixture, we had bowlers like Agarkar, Zaheer, Nehra, Pathan, sreesanth etc. These bowlers were just one notch below bumrah and Shami. I dont recall Bhajji being a threat to the opposition, especially abroad. he himself achieved success on spinning tracks of India. Wonder why he keeps cribbing now, if not jealousy.

Not one notch. 2 or 3 notches below. Zaheer was maybe 2 notches below. Others barring srinath who really should have been a sub 25 bowler with some support were all atleast 3 notches below.

 

Having said that bhaji was still overrated and not in the class of ash and jaddu.

Edited February 13, 2023 by speedracer

[bsriharsha]

Kumble would have dominated this era as well. The man thrived on pitches offering assistance and variation in terms of bounce and quite a lot of times in the 2000s , he's had to bowl on increasingly batting friendly pitches. 

 

Ashwin and Jadeja are comfortably ahead of Harbhajan who was a passenger for the side ever since he remodelled his bowling action. 

 

Ashwin/ Jadeja over Kumble/ Harbhajan anytime as a bowling pair. If you look at them as cricketers (including batting abilities) , then the difference between the two pairs becomes far more.

 

As a bowler though, Kumble is ahead of Ashwin/Jadeja. He would have decimated batting lineups with his accuracy especially in the spin dominated pitches of now 

 

[speedracer]

7 minutes ago, bsriharsha said:

Kumble would have dominated this era as well. The man thrived on pitches offering assistance and variation in terms of bounce and quite a lot of times in the 2000s , he's had to bowl on increasingly batting friendly pitches. 

 

Ashwin and Jadeja are comfortably ahead of Harbhajan who was a passenger for the side ever since he remodelled his bowling action. 

 

Ashwin/ Jadeja over Kumble/ Harbhajan anytime as a bowling pair. If you look at them as cricketers (including batting abilities) , then the difference between the two pairs becomes far more.

 

As a bowler though, Kumble is ahead of Ashwin/Jadeja. He would have decimated batting lineups with his accuracy especially in the spin dominated pitches of now 

 

This is correct. Kumble would. Be a sub 25 bowler with ease In. Current era. 

 

Imagine him in drs era lol

[bsriharsha]

11 minutes ago, speedracer said:

This is correct. Kumble would. Be a sub 25 bowler with ease In. Current era. 

 

Imagine him in drs era lol

If he had played the majority of his tests in this era , he would be challenging for muralis record...

 

It's only the fact that Ashwin started too late in his career which stops him from realistically getting into the 600 wickets mark. 

[bsriharsha]

17 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

It is not as if Bhajji did not have a good bowling attack alongside him. By the time he was a permanent fixture, we had bowlers like Agarkar, Zaheer, Nehra, Pathan, sreesanth etc. These bowlers were just one notch below bumrah and Shami. I dont recall Bhajji being a threat to the opposition, especially abroad. he himself achieved success on spinning tracks of India. Wonder why he keeps cribbing now, if not jealousy.

If anything harbhajan with his darts was a weakness in that era , he had only basically one basic mode of getting wickets.... Overspin catching the top half of the bat which then gets the close in fielders into play. Never did manage to turn the ball appreciably and probably had the most useless doosra of all the offspinners (at that time) around. I do think that the doosra is an illegal delivery and what use is a spinner who chucks and yet was so inept for the majority of his career.

[bsriharsha]

And if someone like Kumble was playing now. You would find that India's bowling attack would be unbeatable. 

 

2 of kumble / jadeja / Ashwin overseas with jadeja playing as a proper allrounder. Kumble isn't a mug with a bat either. With the Indian fast bowlers now who are very very serviceable. 

 

All three at home , with 2 pacers. 

[vvvslaxman]

16 minutes ago, bsriharsha said:

And if someone like Kumble was playing now. You would find that India's bowling attack would be unbeatable. 

 

2 of kumble / jadeja / Ashwin overseas with jadeja playing as a proper allrounder. Kumble isn't a mug with a bat either. With the Indian fast bowlers now who are very very serviceable. 

 

All three at home , with 2 pacers. 

 

Kumble's issue was left handers.  He averages 35 against lefties

[bsriharsha]

34 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kumble's issue was left handers.  He averages 35 against lefties

Ash would take care of the lefties lol

[speedracer]

1 hour ago, bsriharsha said:

If he had played the majority of his tests in this era , he would be challenging for muralis record...

 

It's only the fact that Ashwin started too late in his career which stops him from realistically getting into the 600 wickets mark. 

Not to mention the ATG pace attack of india which is the best Asian pace attack of all time would be supporting kumble. It's a carnage. 

[speedracer]

1 hour ago, bsriharsha said:

And if someone like Kumble was playing now. You would find that India's bowling attack would be unbeatable. 

 

2 of kumble / jadeja / Ashwin overseas with jadeja playing as a proper allrounder. Kumble isn't a mug with a bat either. With the Indian fast bowlers now who are very very serviceable. 

 

All three at home , with 2 pacers. 

Serviceable is an understatement. Pace attack is the best since 2015 across conditions overall. Check pacer averages of Indian bowlers in Asia to spinners. It's on par. They have been that brutal. 

 

Even recent test if siraj and shami dint take those opening wickets early on a pitch that was on the flatter side on day 1, we would have had a much tougher test overall.

[speedracer]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kumble's issue was left handers.  He averages 35 against lefties

Great bowler Cummins also sucks vs lefties check his record vs lefties. Much lower vs righties. 

 

Bumrah has issues only with 2 players in tests. Tom fkn Latham for some reason and the other one is Steve Smith occasionally. 

[bsriharsha]

11 hours ago, speedracer said:

Not to mention the ATG pace attack of india which is the best Asian pace attack of all time would be supporting kumble. It's a carnage. 

The Pak attack of Wasim / Waqar / Akthar would have been better but it was still an era of Waqar being beyond his best (was never the same bowler after his injury, lost a chunk of pace) , Akthar being way too inconsistent and injured most of the time. 

 

Bumrah , Shami and Siraj / Ishant / Umesh / Bhuvi (whoever the third bowler is) aren't in that level even if the Indian pace bowling battery has probably greater bench strength which is the one thing that the Pak attack of the late 90s lacked. The drop off between the first choice 3 and then the backup pacers was huge. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by bsriharsha

[speedracer]

10 minutes ago, bsriharsha said:

The Pak attack of Wasim / Waqar / Akthar would have been better but it was still an era of Waqar being beyond his best (was never the same bowler after his injury, lost a chunk of pace) , Akthar being way too inconsistent and injured most of the time. 

 

Bumrah , Shami and Siraj / Ishant / Umesh / Bhuvi (whoever the third bowler is) aren't in that level even if the Indian pace bowling battery has probably greater bench strength which is the one thing that the Pak attack of the late 90s lacked. The drop off between the first choice 3 and then the backup pacers was huge. 

Injuries happen to everyone. If not srinath would be up there with Waqar and co too. Bumrah pre injury was more devastating than pretty much any bowler I have seen. Injury cant be an excuse. It's what and how they deliver vs top sides that matter. Pak failed in this regard.

 

I would say Indian battery is a fair bit better in most conditions. Numbers back that up too.

 

Oz 

Asia

S.africa 

W.indies

Etc all favour Indian pace battery which is a fair bit better.

 

English conditions is where pak is slightly better. 

In nz they are better.

 

Overall I would say Indian pace battery is much more deadly. 

 

Waqar is vastly overrated. Post 1993 he has been bang average. Wasim had an average of 29 in sena

Waqar had an average of 34 vs sena 

That's barely z.khan level. Even if you include w.indies of those times it becomes worse for Waqar. 

 

Akthar too was mediocre vs all top sides. Shami is a better bowler than akthar. It may be hard for many to agree but shami has been devastating at times. Bumrah is a tier above Waqar shoaib and on par if not better than wasim. Siraj has just started. Not to mention new young guns coming up. If we don't stuff up selections then we should be having more sub 25 bowlers coming through.  

Edited February 15, 2023 by speedracer

[bsriharsha]

13 hours ago, speedracer said:

Injuries happen to everyone. If not srinath would be up there with Waqar and co too. Bumrah pre injury was more devastating than pretty much any bowler I have seen. Injury cant be an excuse. It's what and how they deliver vs top sides that matter. Pak failed in this regard.

 

I would say Indian battery is a fair bit better in most conditions. Numbers back that up too.

 

Oz 

Asia

S.africa 

W.indies

Etc all favour Indian pace battery which is a fair bit better.

 

English conditions is where pak is slightly better. 

In nz they are better.

 

Overall I would say Indian pace battery is much more deadly. 

 

Waqar is vastly overrated. Post 1993 he has been bang average. Wasim had an average of 29 in sena

Waqar had an average of 34 vs sena 

That's barely z.khan level. Even if you include w.indies of those times it becomes worse for Waqar. 

 

Akthar too was mediocre vs all top sides. Shami is a better bowler than akthar. It may be hard for many to agree but shami has been devastating at times. Bumrah is a tier above Waqar shoaib and on par if not better than wasim. Siraj has just started. Not to mention new young guns coming up. If we don't stuff up selections then we should be having more sub 25 bowlers coming through.  

Partly agree. Maybe it's the conflict between the ageist w.r.t the recency bias

[vice]

Bottom line : MORE SPINNER FRIENDLY PITCHES  now.

 

Indian pitches are tailor made for Indian spinners these days.

These days, you can throw any indian domestic spinner, and they will roll out the opposition.  Just look at Axar easily replacing Jadeja.  Throw in Kuldeep, he'll bag buckets of wickets.

 

[Mesky99]

Died Harbhajan definitely put in a lot more revs and body behind the ball than Ashwin, he was more of a top spin bowler, Ashwin more stump to stump, the best Ashwin ever bowled was the first test Vs wi second innings 2016, pitches have definitely played a part thou Ashwin out bowled Harbhajan when they played together

[Vilander]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:55 AM, bsriharsha said:

bowler though, Kumble is ahead of Ashwin/Jadeja. He would have decimated batting lineups with his accuracy especially in the spin dominated pitches of now 

How do you say this ? Thisbis exactly what Harbhajan has been saying poor guy. He feels pitches have been assisting spin now so Ashwin and Jadeja are picking wickets as opposed to earlier when Kumble and himself pretty much bowled and purely got wickets based on their skill. I belive its not substantiated bowlers with better average and strike rates are basically better bowlers when all in question have bowled over a x number of games and got over a x number of wickets.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Vilander