Let’s do a fair assessment of : Ashwin & Jaddu vs. Kumble- Bhajji on Indian pitches.

[zen]

 

Outside Asia 

 

Host country Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa  or West Indies

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
BS Chandrasekhar	1967-1979	23	38	6202	2881	92	6/38	12/104	31.31	2.78	67.4	8	1
BS Bedi	1967-1979	34	58	10145	3901	123	6/127	10/194	31.71	2.30	82.4	6	1
EAS Prasanna	1962-1978	25	42	7174	2931	92	8/76	11/140	31.85	2.45	77.9	5	1
Harbhajan Singh	1998-2011	27	50	6817	3407	98	7/120	8/180	34.76	2.99	69.5	6	0
A Kumble	1990-2008	46	84	14215	6632	186	8/141	12/279	35.65	2.79	76.4	8	1
RA Jadeja	2013-2022	21	37	4526	2007	56	6/138	7/258	35.83	2.66	80.8	1	0
R Ashwin	2011-2022	27	47	6471	3103	83	7/83	7/121	37.38	2.87	77.9	2	0
RJ Shastri	1981-1992	30	48	6144	2439	64	5/125	8/179	38.10	2.38	96.0	1	0
S Venkataraghavan	1967-1983	25	41	6602	2753	62	5/95	6/96	44.40	2.50	106.4	1	0

 

^ In terms of avg, Ashwin & Jadeja compete with Ravi Shastri and Venkat

 

 

In SENA

 

Host country Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 40

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
EAS Prasanna	1967-1978	20	34	5771	2336	78	8/76	11/140	29.94	2.42	73.9	5	1
BS Bedi	1967-1979	25	42	7076	2789	90	6/127	10/194	30.98	2.36	78.6	5	1
BS Chandrasekhar	1967-1979	19	32	4994	2225	71	6/38	12/104	31.33	2.67	70.3	6	1
RJ Shastri	1981-1992	21	36	4340	1628	47	5/125	8/179	34.63	2.25	92.3	1	0
A Kumble	1990-2008	35	67	11317	5224	141	8/141	12/279	37.04	2.76	80.2	5	1
RA Jadeja	2013-2022	19	33	4109	1822	48	6/138	7/258	37.95	2.66	85.6	1	0
R Ashwin	2011-2022	24	42	5835	2754	70	4/55	7/121	39.34	2.83	83.3	0	0
Harbhajan Singh	1998-2011	19	34	4796	2476	62	7/120	7/102	39.93	3.09	77.3	3	0

 

 

 

 

At Home 

 

Home or away home venue

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
RA Jadeja	2012-2023	37	73	1614.3	457	3635	179	7/48	10/154	20.30	2.25	54.1	9	1
R Ashwin	2011-2023	52	101	2480.5	550	6682	320	7/59	13/140	20.88	2.69	46.5	25	6
BS Bedi	1966-1979	30	54	1731.5	649	3287	137	7/98	9/70	23.99	1.89	75.8	8	0
SLV Raju	1990-2001	16	30	740.0	211	1704	71	6/12	11/125	24.00	2.30	62.5	5	1
A Kumble	1993-2008	63	115	3465.2	895	8710	350	10/74	14/149	24.88	2.51	59.4	25	7
DR Doshi	1979-1983	21	37	941.4	292	1955	77	6/103	8/103	25.38	2.07	73.3	4	0
MH Mankad	1948-1959	23	38	1294.3	416	2733	103	8/52	13/131	26.53	2.11	75.4	4	2
EAS Prasanna	1962-1977	22	41	1115.3	345	2560	95	6/74	10/174	26.94	2.29	70.4	5	1
PP Ojha	2009-2013	20	40	1070.1	262	2779	101	6/47	10/89	27.51	2.59	63.5	7	1
BS Chandrasekhar	1964-1979	32	55	1530.5	408	3933	142	8/79	11/235	27.69	2.56	64.6	8	1
RG Nadkarni	1955-1966	25	40	928.5	437	1477	53	6/91	11/122	27.86	1.59	105.1	3	1
Harbhajan Singh	1998-2013	55	103	2831.3	565	7624	265	8/84	15/217	28.76	2.69	64.1	18	4
SP Gupte	1951-1961	21	36	1074.4	352	2549	84	9/102	10/223	30.34	2.37	76.7	6	1
Maninder Singh	1983-1993	18	32	811.3	229	1898	62	7/27	10/107	30.61	2.33	78.5	3	2
S Venkataraghavan	1965-1983	32	55	1379.1	463	2881	94	8/72	12/152	30.64	2.08	88.0	2	1
NS Yadav	1979-1987	28	49	979.3	216	2626	77	5/76	7/81	34.10	2.68	76.3	2	0
SA Durani	1960-1973	21	35	784.0	242	1896	55	6/73	10/177	34.47	2.41	85.5	3	1
RJ Shastri	1981-1990	38	61	1244.5	325	2842	73	5/75	5/75	38.93	2.28	102.3	1	0

 

 

 

Avg Difference: Outside Asia - Home 

 

Chandra 3.62 (for reference)

Bhajji 6.00

Kumble 10.77

Jadeja 15.53

Ashwin 16.50 

 

Avg Difference: SENA - Home 

 

Chandra 3.64 (for reference)

Bhajji 11.17

Kumble 12.16

Jadeja 17.65

Ashwin 18.46

 

 

Jadeja & Ashwin have been helped massively by playing relatively more on rank turners at home. Therefore, their record should be taken with a pinch of salt. 

 

Rank turners have killed the art of good spin bowling in India. 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

How do you say this ? Thisbis exactly what Harbhajan has been saying poor guy. He feels pitches have been assisting spin now so Ashwin and Jadeja are picking wickets as opposed to earlier when Kumble and himself pretty much bowled and purely got wickets based on their skill. I belive its not substantiated bowlers with better average and strike rates are basically better bowlers when all in question have bowled over a x number of games and got over a x number of wickets.

 

Bhajji didn't exactly play in a completely different era. He did play alongside Ashwin. It is not even a contest.  

 

 

Ashwin + Bhajji together 

 

 

 

 

Ashwin + Bhajji + Jaddu together

 

 

[R!TTER]

Harbhajan really only played the last 2-3 years of his career with Ashwin & only the last 6-12 months with some massive turning wickets. Your numbers aren't comparable, not to mention DRS only came into the fore after he retired. No matter how you dissect it, favorably or not, Jadeja/Ashwin have been at least lucky to play in the era of DRS & turning wickets, also with T20 & 2 new balls pretty much every one out there has st!t technique against spin. You can see that as an attack on them or just accept reality 

Edited February 15, 2023 by R!TTER

[R!TTER]

In the decade (11 years) just after 2k only 3 spinners took more than 100 wickets at home against top 6 test teams!

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

Home or away home venue

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 31 Dec 2010

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  or mixture/unknown

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 3 of 3

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Muralidaran (SL)	2000-2010	25	47	1554.4	340	3958	182	8/87	13/171	21.74	2.54	51.2	18	6
Harbhajan Singh (IND)	2001-2010	34	62	1876.2	353	5277	184	8/84	15/217	28.67	2.81	61.1	13	4
A Kumble (IND)	2000-2008	23	42	1327.4	295	3643	120	7/48	13/181	30.35	2.74	66.3	9	3

 

 

And guess who's not in that list 

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

Home or away home venue

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 31 Dec 2010

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  or mixture/unknown

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Muralidaran (SL)	2000-2010	25	47	1554.4	340	3958	182	8/87	13/171	21.74	2.54	51.2	18	6
Harbhajan Singh (IND)	2001-2010	34	62	1876.2	353	5277	184	8/84	15/217	28.67	2.81	61.1	13	4
A Kumble (IND)	2000-2008	23	42	1327.4	295	3643	120	7/48	13/181	30.35	2.74	66.3	9	3
MS Panesar (ENG)	2006-2009	18	30	709.2	153	1900	58	6/37	8/93	32.75	2.67	73.3	3	0
SK Warne (AUS)	2000-2006	17	32	815.3	169	2385	72	5/113	8/112	33.12	2.92	67.9	1	0
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2002-2009	14	23	714.5	106	2135	59	7/118	10/190	36.18	2.98	72.6	3	1
DL Vettori (NZ)	2000-2010	22	36	888.5	193	2534	63	7/87	12/149	40.22	2.85	84.6	4	2

 

Now don't tell me the best spinner in the history of the game was overrated, he had much better numbers in the 90's 

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

Home or away home venue

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 2000

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  or mixture/unknown

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
A Kumble (IND)	1994-1999	22	39	1074.5	311	2496	121	10/74	14/149	20.62	2.32	53.2	9	3
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-1999	25	46	1264.1	370	2987	127	7/23	12/128	23.51	2.36	59.7	8	3

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

Harbhajan really only played the last 2-3 years of his career with Ashwin & only the last 6-12 months with some massive turning wickets. Your numbers aren't really comparable, not to mention DRS only came into the fore after he retired. No matter how you dissect it, favorably or not, Jadeja/Ashwin have been at least lucky to play in the era of DRS & turning wickets, also with T20 & 2 new balls pretty much every one out there has st!t technique against spin. You can see that as an attack on them or just reality 

 

If you are going to bring up DRS technically Bhajji would have been a non-starter in chucker scrutiny era.  Wickets turned in every era. Even back at the MCG in 1980 ball was turning and rolling so much so Karsan Ghavri had this dual skill of bowling spin and seam, opened his bowling as a spinner took 2 wickets. Anyway Bhajji didn't exactly do much in the late 2000s prior to Ashwin. Avged 35. Will bowl million overs and pick up a wicket here and there. 

[zen]

ICF ... Stats being widely available does not mean everyone knows how to use them. 

 

One guy posted something with hilariously small sample size, while the other focused on some irrelevant criteria of 100 wkts against top 6 teams where Asia spinners will have more wkts as they bowl more overs! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[R!TTER]

Nope, the wickets in 2000's decade were definitely much flatter. If you are going to bring up (inflated) batting avg from that decade, claiming it was much better to bat in that time, then it's "common sense" to also know that pitches were more flat.

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

If you are going to bring up DRS technically Bhajji would have been a non-starter in chucker scrutiny era.

That's just speculation on your part. Harbhajan did have the doosra but it was hardly his biggest weapon, in fact he didn't use it much & never prior to 2004/05 - maybe he saw Javelin thrower & got jealous of his numbers?

Edited February 15, 2023 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Nope, the wickets in 2000's decade were definitely much flatter. If you are going to bring up (inflated) batting avg from that decade, claiming it was much better to bat in that time, then it's "common sense" to also know that pitches were more flat.

That's just speculation on your part. Harbhajan did have the doosra but it was hardly his biggest weapon, in fact he didn't use it much & never prior to 2004/05 - maybe he saw Javelin thrower & got jealous of his numbers?

 

This flat pitch argument is subjective. If you are referring to Pakistan matches

 

Paul Harris 7 tests 25 wickets 24 avge against Pakistan

Bhajji         9 tests 25 wickets  52 avge against Pakistan

 

Bhajji was treated like a part timer most of the time.  Pakistan wickets were considered to be the flattest. Let us look at the spinners in 2000s there

 

Murali  6 test 35 wickets 23.94 avge

Kumble  6 tests 24 wickets 42.41 avge

Giles  5 tests 20 wickets 32.85 avge

Mohammad rafique  3 tests 17 wickets 23.82 avge

Paul harris 2 tests 12 wickets 20.66 avge

Herath  2 tests 11 wickets 29.09

Tendulkar 6 tests 4 wickets 38.50 avge

...........

 

 Bhajji  2 tests  81 overs 355 runs  0 wicket.

 

So let us stop using this "flat pitch" argument to big up a mediocre bowler who had one good series

 

[vvvslaxman]

Honestly strike rate is a major factor. A seamer would be proud of such strike rates. . This is best strike rate among 50 plus wicket takers at home for India. Beastly shami followed by a spinner.  Handsdown two fo the best match winning combo in Indian history as a package (bat/ball). 

 

Ashwin 9 man of the matches/ 9 man of the series

Jadeja  8 man of the matches / 1 man of the series

 

 

 

 

[R!TTER]

29 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

This flat pitch argument is subjective. If you are referring to Pakistan matches

 

Paul Harris 7 tests 25 wickets 24 avge against Pakistan

Bhajji         9 tests 25 wickets  52 avge against Pakistan

 

Bhajji was treated like a part timer most of the time.  Pakistan wickets were considered to be the flattest. Let us look at the spinners in 2000s there

 

Murali  6 test 35 wickets 23.94 avge

Kumble  6 tests 24 wickets 42.41 avge

Giles  5 tests 20 wickets 32.85 avge

Mohammad rafique  3 tests 17 wickets 23.82 avge

Paul harris 2 tests 12 wickets 20.66 avge

Herath  2 tests 11 wickets 29.09

Tendulkar 6 tests 4 wickets 38.50 avge

...........

 

 Bhajji  2 tests  81 overs 355 runs  0 wicket.

 

So let us stop using this "flat pitch" argument to big up a mediocre bowler who had one good series

 

I'm talking about most the games India played at home, most of them were flat wickets. I don't need second/third hand anecdote to say that because I saw most of those games live. You can pretend they weren't flat or that DRS has had no effect, but numbers quite clearly tell a different story!

 

Host country India  Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 31 Dec 2010  Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20  Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 8 of 8   First Previous Next  Last  Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10   M Kartik (IND) 2000-2004 6 11 251.3 59 567 22 4/44 7/76 25.77 2.25 68.5 0 0   Harbhajan Singh (IND) 2001-2010 47 87 2543.5 508 6831 245 8/84 15/217 27.88 2.68 62.2 18 4   A Kumble (IND) 2000-2008 34 62 1981.5 470 5229 187 7/48 13/181 27.96 2.63 63.5 14 4   PP Ojha (IND) 2009-2010 7 14 387.5 88 1056 30 4/107 6/177 35.20 2.72 77.5 0 0   SK Warne (AUS) 2001-2004 6 11 292.1 58 926 24 6/125 6/125 38.58 3.16 73.0 1 0   Danish Kaneria (PAK) 2005-2007 6 12 367.4 62 1227 31 6/150 7/173 39.58 3.33 71.1 2 0   A Mishra (IND) 2008-2010 8 14 377.0 63 1084 25 5/71 7/106 43.36 2.87 90.4 1 0   M Muralidaran (SL) 2005-2009 6 9 310.3 42 1087 25 7/100 8/218 43.48 3.50 74.5 1 0       Five bowlers avg under 25 in the last decade as compared to 0 in the decade (11 years) before that, yeah I'm sure wickets had nothing to do with it  View overall figures [change view]

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2011 and 31 Dec 2022

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
AR Patel (IND)	2021-2022	6	12	217.5	52	485	39	6/38	11/70	12.43	2.22	33.5	5	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	2012-2022	36	71	1580.3	446	3554	172	7/48	10/154	20.66	2.24	55.1	8	1
R Ashwin (IND)	2011-2022	51	99	2453.0	545	6603	312	7/59	13/140	21.16	2.69	47.1	24	6
PP Ojha (IND)	2011-2013	13	26	682.2	174	1723	71	6/47	10/89	24.26	2.52	57.6	7	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2012-2012	4	7	185.5	44	495	20	5/144	8/113	24.75	2.66	55.7	1	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2013-2017	7	13	293.3	28	1040	34	8/50	9/165	30.58	3.54	51.7	3	0
AU Rashid (ENG)	2016-2016	5	8	232.2	19	861	23	4/82	7/178	37.43	3.70	60.6	0	0

 

 

Yes, let's pretend the best team in the world good out to a chucker bowling doosras 

His biggest weapon was bounce back in the day, most of his wickets were caught in slips or bat pad/in front of the wicket! Care to show an actual doosra in there?

 

Now tell me what did ethical mind do at Ranchi 

 

Or do you want me to bring up Rajkot 2016, Chennai 2016, Delhi 2017 or Chennai 2021 (first innings) just to name a few? The mental gymnastics in the thread is unbelievable, I have seen the 2004 Mumbai test as well as Mumbai 2006 test vs Eng - while our batting was generally better against all kinds of spinners we really only had maybe 2 devilishly spinning wickets in that decade! I can from memory name at least 5 such venues last decade.

 

3/230 at Rajkot 2016

1/207 at Chennai 2016

2/185 at Ranchi 2017

4/216 at Delhi 2017   

 

In case you forgot how to use cricinfo, Let me know if you need more "proof" 

 

And this is why I rate Jadeja higher!

Edited February 15, 2023 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

I'm talking about most the games India played at home, most of them were flat wickets. I don't need second third hand anecdote to say that because I saw most of those games live. You can pretend they weren't flat or that DRS has had no effect, but numbers quite clearly tell a different story!

 

Host country India  Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 31 Dec 2010  Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20  Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 8 of 8   First Previous Next  Last  Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Avehttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowUp.gif Econ SR 5 10   M Kartik (IND) 2000-2004 6 11 251.3 59 567 22 4/44 7/76 25.77 2.25 68.5 0 0   Harbhajan Singh (IND) 2001-2010 47 87 2543.5 508 6831 245 8/84 15/217 27.88 2.68 62.2 18 4   A Kumble (IND) 2000-2008 34 62 1981.5 470 5229 187 7/48 13/181 27.96 2.63 63.5 14 4   PP Ojha (IND) 2009-2010 7 14 387.5 88 1056 30 4/107 6/177 35.20 2.72 77.5 0 0   SK Warne (AUS) 2001-2004 6 11 292.1 58 926 24 6/125 6/125 38.58 3.16 73.0 1 0   Danish Kaneria (PAK) 2005-2007 6 12 367.4 62 1227 31 6/150 7/173 39.58 3.33 71.1 2 0   A Mishra (IND) 2008-2010 8 14 377.0 63 1084 25 5/71 7/106 43.36 2.87 90.4 1 0   M Muralidaran (SL) 2005-2009 6 9 310.3 42 1087 25 7/100 8/218 43.48 3.50 74.5 1 0       Five bowlers avg under 25 in the last decade as compared to 0 in the decade (11 years) before that, yeah wickets had nothing to do with it  View overall figures [change view]

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2011 and 31 Dec 2022

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
AR Patel (IND)	2021-2022	6	12	217.5	52	485	39	6/38	11/70	12.43	2.22	33.5	5	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	2012-2022	36	71	1580.3	446	3554	172	7/48	10/154	20.66	2.24	55.1	8	1
R Ashwin (IND)	2011-2022	51	99	2453.0	545	6603	312	7/59	13/140	21.16	2.69	47.1	24	6
PP Ojha (IND)	2011-2013	13	26	682.2	174	1723	71	6/47	10/89	24.26	2.52	57.6	7	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2012-2012	4	7	185.5	44	495	20	5/144	8/113	24.75	2.66	55.7	1	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2013-2017	7	13	293.3	28	1040	34	8/50	9/165	30.58	3.54	51.7	3	0
AU Rashid (ENG)	2016-2016	5	8	232.2	19	861	23	4/82	7/178	37.43	3.70	60.6	0	0

 

 

Yes, let's pretend the best team in the world good out to a chucker bowling doosras 

His biggest weapon was bounce back in the day, most of his wickets were caught in slips or bat pad/in front of the wicket!

 

Now tell me what did ethical mind do at Ranchi 

 

Or do you want me to bring up Chennai 2016, Delhi 2017 or Chennai 2021 just to name a few? The mental gymnastics in the thread is unbelievable, I have seen the 2004 Mumbai test as well as Mumbai 2006 test vs Eng - while our batting was generally better against all kinds of spinners we really only had maybe 2 devilishly spinning wickets in that decade! I can from memory name at least 5 such venues last decade.

 

 

This is exactly i shared the matches they played together. That is the only way you can conclusively prove who is better. You cannot say Ashwin would not have bowled better in 2000s and also you cannot say Bhajji would have done the same what Ash/Jaddu are doing now. It is mere conjecture. We can endlessly discuss sticking to our points. At the end of the day numbers over a period of 12 years cannot be dismissed with "theories".  I have also seen the matches in 2000s and 1990s.  For instance in the first test India made 400 where Australia got skittled out for 89. Can you honestly blame the pitch here?  They are an inform world no.1 team with one of the greatest test player ever in the side.  Are you suggesting Bhajji will bowl them out for 89 runs on the same pitch?

[ash]

Harbhajan is in the list just cause of the nostalgia factor of the millennials. He was just darting at the end. Ashwin at the same age now has also lost some of his prime form but not as drastic as Bhaji. 

there is also the watchability factor. There is a reason why players like Sachin, Ponting are rated higher than players with similar stats like Chanderpaul or Kallis. They were just so good to watch. Watching Ashwin bowl is a treat in Indian conditions. Harbhajan never gave that feel especially after he stopped his doosra.
 

I would have loved to see Kumble-Ashwin pair bowling at their prime in Indian conditions. Would be a treat to watch.

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, ash said:

Harbhajan is in the list just cause of the nostalgia factor of the millennials. He was just darting at the end. Ashwin at the same age now has also lost some of his prime form but not as drastic as Bhaji. 

there is also the watchability factor. There is a reason why players like Sachin, Ponting are rated higher than players with similar stats like Chanderpaul or Kallis. They were just so good to watch. Watching Ashwin bowl is a treat in Indian conditions. Harbhajan never gave that feel especially after he stopped his doosra.
 

I would have loved to see Kumble-Ashwin pair bowling at their prime in Indian conditions. Would be a treat to watch.

 

yes Always hard to watch a bowler with 22 degree bend lol He got away for his first 5 years. THen was reported in 2004 and 2005.

[R!TTER]

16 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

We can endlessly discuss sticking to our points.

We can debate that who's the better bowler sure but you can't debate facts - DRS has had much more (positive) impact on the number of wickets Ashwin/Jadeja have taken & that pitches are generally also more conducive to spin. Yes the opposition batters being sh!t also has an impact but it's not our bowler's fault. If we can't agree on basic verifiable facts there's not much to say here really.

Another reason were sh!t neutral umpires - just look at that first ball to Langer *ing plumb but not given 

 

It would be out 9/10 times these days!

Edited February 15, 2023 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

We can debate that who's the better bowler sure but you can't debate facts - DRS has had much more (positive) impact on the number of wickets Ashwin/Jadeja have taken & that pitches are generally also more conducive to spin. Yes the opposition batters being sh!t also has an impact but it's not our bowler's fault. If we can't agree on basic verifiable facts there's not much to say here really.

 

Which is why i picked matches they played together. It is not like Bhajji was doing very well a long period and he suddenly dipped at the end. It was not the case. He was average for a number of years. India just kept him with no real option until we found Ojha. He himself was reported for suspect action later on.

 

OJha and Bhajji have played 11 tests together

 

Ojha  11 tests 40 wickets  41.30 avge  83.9 strike rate

Bhajji  11 tests 38 wickets  43.15 avge 87.4 strike rate

 

India had factory of garbage spinners in the late 2000s. Kumble became mediocre averaging like 51 in 2008.  Only other choice we tried was Mishra who looked mediocre as well. Otherwise mostly part timers like Tendu, Yuvi, Raina, Sehwag. Then Chaiwala played a test. When India looked hopeless with spin option that is when Ashwin entered.  Dramatically things turned for us.  Even at home no bowled averaged below 30  between 2008 and 2010. except Raina in 5 tests averaing 19.33.    In 2 years from 2011-2013 things turned around.  95 wickets in 15 tests by Ashwin. For the record Bhajji played in DRS era too. I am only looking at their skill level not these intangible factors like DRS, batsman quality, pitch conditions. Ashwin was/is/will always be the most skillful spinner India has ever produced. Sheer variations cannot be matched by any. Kumble has a few variations. He could bowl seam up too like he did against Pakistan on last day pitch and he was even somewhat successful.  If you are talking about guile, drift, variation he is definitely up there as much as you use "custom filters". Most of his dismissals are magical stuffs.

 

 

 

[R!TTER]

29 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

For the record Bhajji played in DRS era too.

For the record he only played in exactly one series with DRS, for lbw, the other one in 2011 Eng only had hotspot for knicks! Do you want some more facts? Because I kind of a have (almost) photographic memory when it comes to cricket.

29 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

In 2 years from 2011-2013 things turned around.  95 wickets in 15 tests by Ashwin.

Yes, yes sure if you say so -

 

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
GP Swann (ENG)	4	7	185.5	44	495	20	5/144	8/113	24.75	2.66	55.7	1	0
PP Ojha (IND)	4	8	254.2	69	617	20	5/45	9/165	30.85	2.42	76.3	2	0
MS Panesar (ENG)	3	5	183.0	44	456	17	6/81	11/210	26.82	2.49	64.5	2	1
R Ashwin (IND)	4	8	236.5	48	737	14	3/80	5/214	52.64	3.11	101.5	0	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	4	7	126.4	27	363	12	4/81	6/127	30.25	2.86	63.3	0	0
UT Yadav (IND)	1	2	30.0	4	84	4	3/70	4/84	21.00	2.80	45.0	0	0
ST Finn (ENG)	1	2	39.0	8	118	4	3/45	4/118	29.50	3.02	58.5	0	0
PP Chawla (IND)	1	2	47.5	7	133	4	4/69	4/133	33.25	2.78	71.7	0	0
I Sharma (IND)	2	3	72.0	20	169	4	3/49	3/91	42.25	2.34	108.0	0	0
Z Khan (IND)	3	4	88.3	22	213	4	2/59	3/82	53.25	2.40	132.7	0	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	1	2	70.0	34	117	3	2/58	3/117	39.00	1.67	140.0	0	0
Harbhajan Singh (IND)	1	2	23.0	1	84	2	2/74	2/84	42.00	3.65	69.0	0	0
KP Pietersen (ENG)	4	1	8.0	1	25	1	1/25	1/25	25.00	3.12	48.0	0	0
SR Patel (ENG)	3	4	42.0	4	135	1	1/96	1/120	135.00	3.21	252.0	0	0

 

Nothing to see here 

29 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Ashwin was/is/will always be the most skillful spinner India has ever produced.

Nope, I'll still pick Jadeja over Ashwin 

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	3	5	123.4	24	359	12	4/63	8/130	29.91	2.90	61.8	0	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	3	6	117.0	35	259	10	3/56	5/84	25.90	2.21	70.2	0	0
Mohammed Shami (IND)	2	4	77.0	21	269	9	4/100	6/134	29.88	3.49	51.3	0	0
B Kumar (IND)	1	2	38.0	13	96	8	4/8	8/96	12.00	2.52	28.5	0	0
I Sharma (IND)	2	4	68.3	16	210	8	3/37	5/80	26.25	3.06	51.3	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
RA Jadeja (IND)	4	8	213.1	54	464	25	6/63	9/178	18.56	2.17	51.1	2	0
R Ashwin (IND)	4	8	225.2	51	575	21	6/41	8/125	27.38	2.55	64.3	1	0
SNJ O'Keefe (AUS)	4	7	179.1	36	442	19	6/35	12/70	23.26	2.46	56.5	2	1
NM Lyon (AUS)	4	7	166.2	19	480	19	8/50	8/132	25.26	2.88	52.5	2	0
UT Yadav (IND)	4	8	129.0	22	398	17	4/32	6/71	23.41	3.08	45.5	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	5	10	307.1	45	847	28	6/55	12/167	30.25	2.75	65.8	3	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	5	10	290.1	67	672	26	7/48	10/154	25.84	2.31	66.9	1	1
AU Rashid (ENG)	5	8	232.2	19	861	23	4/82	7/178	37.43	3.70	60.6	0	0
Mohammed Shami (IND)	3	6	103.0	22	252	10	3/63	5/100	25.20	2.44	61.8	0	0
MM Ali (ENG)	5	8	188.1	21	649	10	3/98	4/107	64.90	3.44	112.9	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	4	7	164.4	56	345	31	7/66	12/98	11.12	2.09	31.8	4	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	4	7	140.5	56	249	23	5/21	8/76	10.82	1.76	36.7	2	0
Imran Tahir (SA)	4	7	95.0	13	299	14	5/38	6/71	21.35	3.14	40.7	1	0
SR Harmer (SA)	2	4	83.2	11	254	10	4/61	5/112	25.40	3.04	50.0	0	0
M Morkel (SA)	3	5	78.1	24	186	9	3/19	6/54	20.66	2.37	52.1	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	4	8	241.2	74	583	29	7/103	12/198	20.10	2.41	49.9	4	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	4	8	193.2	53	419	24	5/58	7/98	17.45	2.16	48.3	1	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	3	6	127.1	9	560	15	7/94	9/165	37.33	4.40	50.8	1	0
JL Pattinson (AUS)	3	5	79.0	19	250	9	5/96	6/109	27.77	3.16	52.6	1	0
PM Siddle (AUS)	4	6	110.4	27	305	9	5/71	6/105	33.88	2.75	73.7	1	0

Edited February 15, 2023 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

26 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

For the record he only played in exactly one series with DRS, for lbw, the other one in 2011 Eng only had hotspot for knicks! Do you want some more facts? Because I kind of a have (almost) photographic memory when it comes to cricket.

Yes, yes sure if you say so -

 

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
GP Swann (ENG)	4	7	185.5	44	495	20	5/144	8/113	24.75	2.66	55.7	1	0
PP Ojha (IND)	4	8	254.2	69	617	20	5/45	9/165	30.85	2.42	76.3	2	0
MS Panesar (ENG)	3	5	183.0	44	456	17	6/81	11/210	26.82	2.49	64.5	2	1
R Ashwin (IND)	4	8	236.5	48	737	14	3/80	5/214	52.64	3.11	101.5	0	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	4	7	126.4	27	363	12	4/81	6/127	30.25	2.86	63.3	0	0
UT Yadav (IND)	1	2	30.0	4	84	4	3/70	4/84	21.00	2.80	45.0	0	0
ST Finn (ENG)	1	2	39.0	8	118	4	3/45	4/118	29.50	3.02	58.5	0	0
PP Chawla (IND)	1	2	47.5	7	133	4	4/69	4/133	33.25	2.78	71.7	0	0
I Sharma (IND)	2	3	72.0	20	169	4	3/49	3/91	42.25	2.34	108.0	0	0
Z Khan (IND)	3	4	88.3	22	213	4	2/59	3/82	53.25	2.40	132.7	0	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	1	2	70.0	34	117	3	2/58	3/117	39.00	1.67	140.0	0	0
Harbhajan Singh (IND)	1	2	23.0	1	84	2	2/74	2/84	42.00	3.65	69.0	0	0
KP Pietersen (ENG)	4	1	8.0	1	25	1	1/25	1/25	25.00	3.12	48.0	0	0
SR Patel (ENG)	3	4	42.0	4	135	1	1/96	1/120	135.00	3.21	252.0	0	0

 

Nothing to see here 

Nope, I'll still pick Jadeja over Ashwin 

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	3	5	123.4	24	359	12	4/63	8/130	29.91	2.90	61.8	0	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	3	6	117.0	35	259	10	3/56	5/84	25.90	2.21	70.2	0	0
Mohammed Shami (IND)	2	4	77.0	21	269	9	4/100	6/134	29.88	3.49	51.3	0	0
B Kumar (IND)	1	2	38.0	13	96	8	4/8	8/96	12.00	2.52	28.5	0	0
I Sharma (IND)	2	4	68.3	16	210	8	3/37	5/80	26.25	3.06	51.3	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
RA Jadeja (IND)	4	8	213.1	54	464	25	6/63	9/178	18.56	2.17	51.1	2	0
R Ashwin (IND)	4	8	225.2	51	575	21	6/41	8/125	27.38	2.55	64.3	1	0
SNJ O'Keefe (AUS)	4	7	179.1	36	442	19	6/35	12/70	23.26	2.46	56.5	2	1
NM Lyon (AUS)	4	7	166.2	19	480	19	8/50	8/132	25.26	2.88	52.5	2	0
UT Yadav (IND)	4	8	129.0	22	398	17	4/32	6/71	23.41	3.08	45.5	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	5	10	307.1	45	847	28	6/55	12/167	30.25	2.75	65.8	3	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	5	10	290.1	67	672	26	7/48	10/154	25.84	2.31	66.9	1	1
AU Rashid (ENG)	5	8	232.2	19	861	23	4/82	7/178	37.43	3.70	60.6	0	0
Mohammed Shami (IND)	3	6	103.0	22	252	10	3/63	5/100	25.20	2.44	61.8	0	0
MM Ali (ENG)	5	8	188.1	21	649	10	3/98	4/107	64.90	3.44	112.9	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	4	7	164.4	56	345	31	7/66	12/98	11.12	2.09	31.8	4	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	4	7	140.5	56	249	23	5/21	8/76	10.82	1.76	36.7	2	0
Imran Tahir (SA)	4	7	95.0	13	299	14	5/38	6/71	21.35	3.14	40.7	1	0
SR Harmer (SA)	2	4	83.2	11	254	10	4/61	5/112	25.40	3.04	50.0	0	0
M Morkel (SA)	3	5	78.1	24	186	9	3/19	6/54	20.66	2.37	52.1	0	0

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
R Ashwin (IND)	4	8	241.2	74	583	29	7/103	12/198	20.10	2.41	49.9	4	1
RA Jadeja (IND)	4	8	193.2	53	419	24	5/58	7/98	17.45	2.16	48.3	1	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	3	6	127.1	9	560	15	7/94	9/165	37.33	4.40	50.8	1	0
JL Pattinson (AUS)	3	5	79.0	19	250	9	5/96	6/109	27.77	3.16	52.6	1	0
PM Siddle (AUS)	4	6	110.4	27	305	9	5/71	6/105	33.88	2.75	73.7	1	0

 

 

Have you ever seen a team prepare themselves for Jadeja? Ashwin has done well before Jadeja, with Jadeja, without Jadeja. I don't think  Jadeja ever played a Test at home without Ashwin. ANyway i see what you are doing here lol You are just putting one against another to score a point.   I speak for both although i prefer magic delivery man. Don't dilute their achievement with filters.  Once these 2 disappear from the scene we will realize.  One of the main reason why India is managing complete home-domination for more than a decade. Both with bat and ball they have saved and won countless of Tests.  

Edited February 15, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[R!TTER]

I'm not pitting anyone against any other, I prefer Jadeja & always have - his numbers prove he's just a better bowler consistently at home. Sure Ashwin maybe more skillful but that doesn't mean anything if you can't get results, he has disappointed away from home in some helpful conditions where he performed well below par. In India he's indeed a major part of the reason why we've dominated for so long but the way some of you sing praises for him like would almost make it seem like he's the best bowler India's ever had & that's as far away from the truth as it can be! For me Kumble was/is the best ever then followed by Ashwin/Jadeja depending on your preference. Kumble 2003/04 series away vs Oz is the best performance by a visiting spinner in the last 40(50?) years & that too against statistically the best batting lineup ever. Ashwin & Jadeja have also unperformed against S. E. N. A. teams away from home that's why I prefer Kuldeep for his control & leg spin.

[vvvslaxman]

Just throw it out there why left arm spinners are more successful in India comapred to off spinners.  Off spinners are easiest bowler to play against because pretty much anyone can bowl off spin.  Just look at Ranji stat and see how many off spinners do well here. It is completely dominated  by left arm spinners. Not many offies or wristies. Wristies i understand as it is a difficult art to master. 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/the-success-of-england-s-left-arm-spinners-in-india-1066658

 

[tapandrun]

I think Ashwin and Jadeja got v.favourable pitches to bowl on and there are v.few/no team which has same kind spin attack- There is no peer competition in current time for these two.

 

Harbhajan and Kumble bowled on batter friendly pitches, they would have been equally treating as Jadeja and Ashwin on current pitches, but Harbhajan and Kumble's peer were far better than these two.

 

So interms of contemporary competition Ashwin and Jadeja are no match in test. Harbhajan and Kumble were way behind Murali and Warne.