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Let’s do a fair assessment of : Ashwin & Jaddu vs. Kumble- Bhajji on Indian pitches.


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2 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

I think Ashwin and Jadeja got v.favourable pitches to bowl on and there are v.few/no team which has same kind spin attack- There is no peer competition in current time for these two.

 

Harbhajan and Kumble bowled on batter friendly pitches, they would have been equally treating as Jadeja and Ashwin on current pitches, but Harbhajan and Kumble's peer were far better than these two.

 

So interms of contemporary competition Ashwin and Jadeja are no match in test. Harbhajan and Kumble were way behind Murali and Warne.

 

Stuart McGill was very unlucky to be born in that era. He had better strike rates than Murali/Warne if i am right.

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4 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Bhajji didn't exactly play in a completely different era. He did play alongside Ashwin. It is not even a contest.  

 

 

Ashwin + Bhajji together 

 

 

werwerwer.jpg

 

 

Ashwin + Bhajji + Jaddu together

 

 

qwerwerw.jpg

Was looking more for Kumble, yeah Harbhajan is just gas.

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2 hours ago, R!TTER said:

For the record he only played in exactly one series with DRS, for lbw, the other one in 2011 Eng only had hotspot for knicks! Do you want some more facts? Because I kind of a have (almost) photographic memory when it comes to cricket.

Yes, yes sure if you say so -

 

Most wickets
Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
GP Swann (ENG) 4 7 185.5 44 495 20 5/144 8/113 24.75 2.66 55.7 1 0
PP Ojha (IND) 4 8 254.2 69 617 20 5/45 9/165 30.85 2.42 76.3 2 0
MS Panesar (ENG) 3 5 183.0 44 456 17 6/81 11/210 26.82 2.49 64.5 2 1
R Ashwin (IND) 4 8 236.5 48 737 14 3/80 5/214 52.64 3.11 101.5 0 0
JM Anderson (ENG) 4 7 126.4 27 363 12 4/81 6/127 30.25 2.86 63.3 0 0
UT Yadav (IND) 1 2 30.0 4 84 4 3/70 4/84 21.00 2.80 45.0 0 0
ST Finn (ENG) 1 2 39.0 8 118 4 3/45 4/118 29.50 3.02 58.5 0 0
PP Chawla (IND) 1 2 47.5 7 133 4 4/69 4/133 33.25 2.78 71.7 0 0
I Sharma (IND) 2 3 72.0 20 169 4 3/49 3/91 42.25 2.34 108.0 0 0
Z Khan (IND) 3 4 88.3 22 213 4 2/59 3/82 53.25 2.40 132.7 0 0
RA Jadeja (IND) 1 2 70.0 34 117 3 2/58 3/117 39.00 1.67 140.0 0 0
Harbhajan Singh (IND) 1 2 23.0 1 84 2 2/74 2/84 42.00 3.65 69.0 0 0
KP Pietersen (ENG) 4 1 8.0 1 25 1 1/25 1/25 25.00 3.12 48.0 0 0
SR Patel (ENG) 3 4 42.0 4 135 1 1/96 1/120 135.00 3.21 252.0 0 0

 

Nothing to see here :nevermind:

Nope, I'll still pick Jadeja over Ashwin :hatsoff:

Most wickets
Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
R Ashwin (IND) 3 5 123.4 24 359 12 4/63 8/130 29.91 2.90 61.8 0 0
RA Jadeja (IND) 3 6 117.0 35 259 10 3/56 5/84 25.90 2.21 70.2 0 0
Mohammed Shami (IND) 2 4 77.0 21 269 9 4/100 6/134 29.88 3.49 51.3 0 0
B Kumar (IND) 1 2 38.0 13 96 8 4/8 8/96 12.00 2.52 28.5 0 0
I Sharma (IND) 2 4 68.3 16 210 8 3/37 5/80 26.25 3.06 51.3 0 0
Most wickets
Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
RA Jadeja (IND) 4 8 213.1 54 464 25 6/63 9/178 18.56 2.17 51.1 2 0
R Ashwin (IND) 4 8 225.2 51 575 21 6/41 8/125 27.38 2.55 64.3 1 0
SNJ O'Keefe (AUS) 4 7 179.1 36 442 19 6/35 12/70 23.26 2.46 56.5 2 1
NM Lyon (AUS) 4 7 166.2 19 480 19 8/50 8/132 25.26 2.88 52.5 2 0
UT Yadav (IND) 4 8 129.0 22 398 17 4/32 6/71 23.41 3.08 45.5 0 0
Most wickets
Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
R Ashwin (IND) 5 10 307.1 45 847 28 6/55 12/167 30.25 2.75 65.8 3 1
RA Jadeja (IND) 5 10 290.1 67 672 26 7/48 10/154 25.84 2.31 66.9 1 1
AU Rashid (ENG) 5 8 232.2 19 861 23 4/82 7/178 37.43 3.70 60.6 0 0
Mohammed Shami (IND) 3 6 103.0 22 252 10 3/63 5/100 25.20 2.44 61.8 0 0
MM Ali (ENG) 5 8 188.1 21 649 10 3/98 4/107 64.90 3.44 112.9 0 0
Most wickets
Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
R Ashwin (IND) 4 7 164.4 56 345 31 7/66 12/98 11.12 2.09 31.8 4 1
RA Jadeja (IND) 4 7 140.5 56 249 23 5/21 8/76 10.82 1.76 36.7 2 0
Imran Tahir (SA) 4 7 95.0 13 299 14 5/38 6/71 21.35 3.14 40.7 1 0
SR Harmer (SA) 2 4 83.2 11 254 10 4/61 5/112 25.40 3.04 50.0 0 0
M Morkel (SA) 3 5 78.1 24 186 9 3/19 6/54 20.66 2.37 52.1 0 0
Most wickets
Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
R Ashwin (IND) 4 8 241.2 74 583 29 7/103 12/198 20.10 2.41 49.9 4 1
RA Jadeja (IND) 4 8 193.2 53 419 24 5/58 7/98 17.45 2.16 48.3 1 0
NM Lyon (AUS) 3 6 127.1 9 560 15 7/94 9/165 37.33 4.40 50.8 1 0
JL Pattinson (AUS) 3 5 79.0 19 250 9 5/96 6/109 27.77 3.16 52.6 1 0
PM Siddle (AUS) 4 6 110.4 27 305 9 5/71 6/105 33.88 2.75 73.7 1 0

 

 

Stats as a whole have some value, stats in a specific country useful when used for comparison of two players who played during a time there. What is the logic behind the four sets of 4 odd matches are those individual series ? 

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1 hour ago, tapandrun said:

Harbhajan and Kumble were way behind Murali and Warne.


Warne and Murali are rare cricketers much like Garry Sobers, Malcolm Marshall, Imran Khan (as an AR), etc. Difficult to out do such players in any generation. 

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5 minutes ago, zen said:


Warne and Murali are rare cricketers much like Garry Sobers, Malcolm Marshall, Imran Khan (as an AR), etc. Difficult to out do such players in any generation. 

 

Yes as cricket has so many variables - In my opinion comparisons can not be made even with contemporary and peers playing at the same time.

 

So easiest and  no so precise comparison can be done with peers playing at same time

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5 hours ago, zen said:

 

Outside Asia 

 

Host country Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa  or West Indies 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50 
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
BS Chandrasekhar 1967-1979 23 38 6202 2881 92 6/38 12/104 31.31 2.78 67.4 8 1  
BS Bedi 1967-1979 34 58 10145 3901 123 6/127 10/194 31.71 2.30 82.4 6 1  
EAS Prasanna 1962-1978 25 42 7174 2931 92 8/76 11/140 31.85 2.45 77.9 5 1  
Harbhajan Singh 1998-2011 27 50 6817 3407 98 7/120 8/180 34.76 2.99 69.5 6 0  
A Kumble 1990-2008 46 84 14215 6632 186 8/141 12/279 35.65 2.79 76.4 8 1  
RA Jadeja 2013-2022 21 37 4526 2007 56 6/138 7/258 35.83 2.66 80.8 1 0  
R Ashwin 2011-2022 27 47 6471 3103 83 7/83 7/121 37.38 2.87 77.9 2 0  
RJ Shastri 1981-1992 30 48 6144 2439 64 5/125 8/179 38.10 2.38 96.0 1 0  
S Venkataraghavan 1967-1983 25 41 6602 2753 62 5/95 6/96 44.40 2.50 106.4 1 0

 

^ In terms of avg, Ashwin & Jadeja compete with Ravi Shastri and Venkat

 

 

In SENA

 

Host country Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 40 
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
EAS Prasanna 1967-1978 20 34 5771 2336 78 8/76 11/140 29.94 2.42 73.9 5 1  
BS Bedi 1967-1979 25 42 7076 2789 90 6/127 10/194 30.98 2.36 78.6 5 1  
BS Chandrasekhar 1967-1979 19 32 4994 2225 71 6/38 12/104 31.33 2.67 70.3 6 1  
RJ Shastri 1981-1992 21 36 4340 1628 47 5/125 8/179 34.63 2.25 92.3 1 0  
A Kumble 1990-2008 35 67 11317 5224 141 8/141 12/279 37.04 2.76 80.2 5 1  
RA Jadeja 2013-2022 19 33 4109 1822 48 6/138 7/258 37.95 2.66 85.6 1 0  
R Ashwin 2011-2022 24 42 5835 2754 70 4/55 7/121 39.34 2.83 83.3 0 0  
Harbhajan Singh 1998-2011 19 34 4796 2476 62 7/120 7/102 39.93 3.09 77.3 3 0

 

 

 

 

At Home 

 

Home or away home venue 
Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler 
Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50 
Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
RA Jadeja 2012-2023 37 73 1614.3 457 3635 179 7/48 10/154 20.30 2.25 54.1 9 1  
R Ashwin 2011-2023 52 101 2480.5 550 6682 320 7/59 13/140 20.88 2.69 46.5 25 6  
BS Bedi 1966-1979 30 54 1731.5 649 3287 137 7/98 9/70 23.99 1.89 75.8 8 0  
SLV Raju 1990-2001 16 30 740.0 211 1704 71 6/12 11/125 24.00 2.30 62.5 5 1  
A Kumble 1993-2008 63 115 3465.2 895 8710 350 10/74 14/149 24.88 2.51 59.4 25 7  
DR Doshi 1979-1983 21 37 941.4 292 1955 77 6/103 8/103 25.38 2.07 73.3 4 0  
MH Mankad 1948-1959 23 38 1294.3 416 2733 103 8/52 13/131 26.53 2.11 75.4 4 2  
EAS Prasanna 1962-1977 22 41 1115.3 345 2560 95 6/74 10/174 26.94 2.29 70.4 5 1  
PP Ojha 2009-2013 20 40 1070.1 262 2779 101 6/47 10/89 27.51 2.59 63.5 7 1  
BS Chandrasekhar 1964-1979 32 55 1530.5 408 3933 142 8/79 11/235 27.69 2.56 64.6 8 1  
RG Nadkarni 1955-1966 25 40 928.5 437 1477 53 6/91 11/122 27.86 1.59 105.1 3 1  
Harbhajan Singh 1998-2013 55 103 2831.3 565 7624 265 8/84 15/217 28.76 2.69 64.1 18 4  
SP Gupte 1951-1961 21 36 1074.4 352 2549 84 9/102 10/223 30.34 2.37 76.7 6 1  
Maninder Singh 1983-1993 18 32 811.3 229 1898 62 7/27 10/107 30.61 2.33 78.5 3 2  
S Venkataraghavan 1965-1983 32 55 1379.1 463 2881 94 8/72 12/152 30.64 2.08 88.0 2 1  
NS Yadav 1979-1987 28 49 979.3 216 2626 77 5/76 7/81 34.10 2.68 76.3 2 0  
SA Durani 1960-1973 21 35 784.0 242 1896 55 6/73 10/177 34.47 2.41 85.5 3 1  
RJ Shastri 1981-1990 38 61 1244.5 325 2842 73 5/75 5/75 38.93 2.28 102.3 1 0

 

 

 

Avg Difference: Outside Asia - Home 

 

Chandra 3.62 (for reference)

Bhajji 6.00

Kumble 10.77

Jadeja 15.53

Ashwin 16.50 

 

Avg Difference: SENA - Home 

 

Chandra 3.64 (for reference)

Bhajji 11.17

Kumble 12.16

Jadeja 17.65

Ashwin 18.46

 

 

Jadeja & Ashwin have been helped massively by playing relatively more on rank turners at home. Therefore, their record should be taken with a pinch of salt. 

 

Rank turners have killed the art of good spin bowling in India. 

 

 

 

 

How does statsguru tell you pitches are rank turners?

 

Can you post 10 matches at home where pitches were rank turners?

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31 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

Yes as cricket has so many variables - In my opinion comparisons can not be made even with contemporary and peers playing at the same time.

 

So easiest and  no so precise comparison can be done with peers playing at same time


A comparison can done if we know what we are looking for. There is a chain that is formed where great cricketers intersect (or are close to intersecting with respective peers) at certain points. For e.g. Bradman ——> Sobers ——> Gavaskar/Richards/Chappell/… ——> S Waugh/Lara/Tendulkar/… ——> Kallis/Sangakkara/… ——> … …. … 

 

Therefore, if Warne and Murali played now, they would be top tier and Ashwin and Jadeja in the next tier much like Kumble and Harbhajan were 

Edited by zen
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10 hours ago, vice said:

Bottom line : MORE SPINNER FRIENDLY PITCHES  now.

 


Indian pitches are tailor made for Indian spinners these days.

These days, you can throw any indian domestic spinner, and they will roll out the opposition.  Just look at Axar easily replacing Jadeja.  Throw in Kuldeep, he'll bag buckets of wickets.

 

Qh5 dint nadeem do well then?  Even sundar

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49 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

How does statsguru tell you pitches are rank turners?

 

Can you post 10 matches at home where pitches were rank turners?

 

lol Rank turners are the ones we played in the 90s. These are not rank turners. 

 

At 4:05 Look at the bal lfrom Afridi

 

 

 

Edited by vvvslaxman
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2 hours ago, Vilander said:

 

 

Stats as a whole have some value, stats in a specific country useful when used for comparison of two players who played during a time there. What is the logic behind the four sets of 4 odd matches are those individual series ? 

What odd matches? I gave multiple sets of stats - the stats of Warne/Kumble at Home in 90's & then in 2k - how come their average ballooned 8-10 runs per wicket while bowling? Then stats of all bowlers in 2k, then 2010's - again the difference is quite stark abut 5-10 per wicket. Lastly pitches - barring a few minnows I remember the games played out in India from 2k in sequence & like I said have witnessed most of those tests on telly, not the full game but at least a day or two. I don't need a scoreboard to know how many rank turners were there in that decade but they were definitely less than 2010's especially post 2012 NZ series!

 

And finally DRS - as I posted in the last page that first ball to Langer would be given lbw 9/10 times today but Billy *ing Bowden didn't think so, it was plumb :facepalm:

 

Likewise there was a similar shout against Clarke on 92 by Kumble & IIRC the same umpire vampire turned it down! The point being that whilst in the 90's such appeals would generally be given, especially by home umpire, in the 2k post 2001(02?) with 2 so called neutral umpires many of these decisions were not given. The so called neutral umpires were stupidly conservative, there was another shocker by such incompetent fools in Karachi 2006 - Zaheer Had Razzaq plumb lbw when their score was 59/6 & Daryl Harper turned it down.

13.4 • Khan to Abdul Razzaq, no run
Z Khan to Razzaq - good length delivery, shaping back in, Razzaq plays down the wrong line and the ball hits the pad plumb in front of the stumps, loud confident appeal turned down, that looked out!

 

We lost that game as a result & the series, it was hitting middle of middle! So DRS would not only reverse howlers but in general (neutral) umps would also give more lbws (today) than ever before - these are just facts, covering your ears & singing lalala doesn't change them.

Edited by R!TTER
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1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

You're the one making claims.

 

Facts unless you are naive enough to think otherwise.
 

How about Prof. Zen gave you an easy exercise? Find games involving Jadeja and/or Ashwin where Indian pacers (despite having a pool of high quality pacers recently) bowled less than 50 overs in the match. 
 

PS for reference, in the famous Kol test in 2001, Indian pacers (Zak, Prasad, & Ganguly) bowled over 70 overs just in the 1st inning. 
 

 

Edited by zen
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20 hours ago, R!TTER said:

What odd matches? I gave multiple sets of stats - the stats of Warne/Kumble at Home in 90's & then in 2k - how come their average ballooned 8-10 runs per wicket while bowling? Then stats of all bowlers in 2k, then 2010's - again the difference is quite stark abut 5-10 per wicket. Lastly pitches - barring a few minnows I remember the games played out in India from 2k in sequence & like I said have witnessed most of those tests on telly, not the full game but at least a day or two. I don't need a scoreboard to know how many rank turners were there in that decade but they were definitely less than 2010's especially post 2012 NZ series!

 

And finally DRS - as I posted in the last page that first ball to Langer would be given lbw 9/10 times today but Billy *ing Bowden didn't think so, it was plumb :facepalm:

 

Likewise there was a similar shout against Clarke on 92 by Kumble & IIRC the same umpire vampire turned it down! The point being that whilst in the 90's such appeals would generally be given, especially by home umpire, in the 2k post 2001(02?) with 2 so called neutral umpires many of these decisions were not given. The so called neutral umpires were stupidly conservative, there was another shocker by such incompetent fools in Karachi 2006 - Zaheer Had Razzaq plumb lbw when their score was 59/6 & Daryl Harper turned it down.

13.4 • Khan to Abdul Razzaq, no run
Z Khan to Razzaq - good length delivery, shaping back in, Razzaq plays down the wrong line and the ball hits the pad plumb in front of the stumps, loud confident appeal turned down, that looked out!

 

We lost that game as a result & the series, it was hitting middle of middle! So DRS would not only reverse howlers but in general (neutral) umps would also give more lbws (today) than ever before - these are just facts, covering your ears & singing lalala doesn't change them.

You posted all that in response to my post asking if those 4 matches were individual series ? I shouod say you seem very invested emotionally to this topic.

 

 

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I've addressed a dozen posts in this thread, it wasn't just for you but this new age revisionism that 2000's pitches weren't flat - they most definitely were (flatter) & somehow this BS that Harbhajan played in the DRS era? The * he just played 2 (test) series with DRS, first one was the trial run for DRS in SL & basically completely rudimentary, the second one with (partial) DRS in Eng with just hotspot being used with no ball tracking (Hawkeye) to overturn howlers like that inside edge of Harbhajan against Broad in the second test.

 

I don't care if you worship/prefer Ashwin, Jadeja, Harbhajan or SRT but ignoring basic verifiable facts gets me! Especially given I've witnessed most of these games live.

Edited by R!TTER
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20 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

I've addressed a dozen posts in this thread, it wasn't just for you but this new age revisionism that 2000's pitches weren't flat - they most definitely were (flatter) & somehow this BS that Harbhajan played in the DRS era? The * he just played 2 (test) series with DRS, first one was the trial run for DRS in SL & basically completely rudimentary, the second one with (partial) DRS in Eng with just hotspot being used with no ball tracking (Hawkeye) to overturn howlers like that inside edge of Harbhajan against Broad in the second test.

 

I don't care if you worship/prefer Ashwin, Jadeja, Harbhajan or SRT but ignoring basic verifiable facts gets me! Especially given I've witnessed most of these games live.

You should also admit Bhajji would have never been allowed to bowl with his chucking action. Ashwin himself played a major role in rooting out of all the chuckers especially the full sleeve chuckers like Ajmal, Narine.

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I have a question for all who think Kumble and Bhajji  would have benefitted a lot with DRS and their averages would be lot lower due to DRS .Second point seems to be they played on more batting friendly wickets than Ashwin and Jadeja.

 

There is huge difference between bowling average of 30 plus for Kumble and Bhajji vs 25  below for Ashwin and Jadeja. 

 

So if Kumble and Bhajji were victims then Sachin and co were the batsmen who benefitted due to flat pitches and lack of DRS. So their averages need to be revisited too?

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Ashwin/Jaddu's real value lies in their batting. If they benefitted in bowler friendly pitches, how come they are averaging 30+ & 40+ with bat in such tough conditions. Why couldn't Kumble/Bhajji do it in supposedly flatter era.Bhajji apart from one series v NZ was a glorified tailender.

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