Is India now the hardest place to play

[Norman]

And I don't see how other teams getting "handicapped" is India's problem. If they don't have good enough spinners or their batters are dog shite against any decent spin , how is it "cheating" if we try and exploit that? 

 

Matlab kuch bhi 

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, Norman said:

And I don't see how other teams getting "handicapped" is India's problem. If they don't have good enough spinners or their batters are dog shite against any decent spin , how is it "cheating" if we try and exploit that? 

 

Matlab kuch bhi 

 

Srilanka helped us cheating  in srilanka by allowing Ashwin to dismiss him 4 out of 4 times

[speedracer]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Again Masters has a clay skew. 

Clay has 3 masters 1000 tourneys (Monte Carlo, Madrid, Rome), grass none. Not to overlook how most of the HCs too play like in this era, look at the court pace indices. 

 

Nadal also benefitted most with racquet change technology, no way he is getting the same top spin with 90s strings. Too many things in his favor, unlike Fed/Nole he won't do well if transported to another era. So what?

He would. He would adapt to any era and he will destroy anyone on clay courts including past greats like Borg lendl and kuerton.

 

It's a blow out. 

Can't say the same about fed who may lose to sampras for example. 

 

Also with HCs. Nadal actually beat fed on hard courts too though. It'd 3-1 in Oz open. Feder never once has beaten nadal in clay. 

 

Don't recall them facing in us open but there was a time when nadal was running through everyone in us open until he had a major injury which forced him to adapt once again.

 

As for nole. Nole himself is greater than federer. 

 

Compare their hard court performances in masters. Don't worry about clay or grass. Nadal still whips federer there too. Only place federer has an advantage is in grass and fast indoor hard courts. Not outdoor. Indoor.

 

Don't forget 18 year old nadal beat prime peak federer in grass. 

 

What makes you think his top spin won't work in 90s? Thr guy is the king of adapting to surfaces. He beat federer on grass in his peak for God sake. Tok him to 5 sets the year before he beat him. Prime pre injured nadal is the bets player of all time.

 

Remember, fed did have major issues vs Murray and even guys like berdych tsonga gave him huge problems prior to 2014 ish. 

 

Murray infact had a winning record at one point before fed. 

 

Sampras, connors and serve and volley players can trouble him on faster courts too.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by speedracer

[neel roy]

Its very difficult to win in India as the mental side comes to play. The heat the dust the noise.. jadeja ashwin bowling in tandem. Shami reversing along with siraj or umesh.. you have no respite.. actually the first test was won because shami siraj made them 2/2 and their best laid plans came to nothing.. on top of it you have india 200/7 150/6 etc and then the ball is old and you see ashwin or axar or jadeja coming out to bat.. you get flat in yourself as the burden of reality strikes.. and by that time the bowlers are tired.. pitches do play a part but that is test cricket.. i remember nz preparing nightmarish pitch for us in 2002.. saf doing same in 1996 then 2010/11. England preparing a green mamba in lords 2018.. Aus to be fair has given us good pitches and also remember england aus saf nz all have fixed 6/7 venues for test cricket and you have a data set to analyse how newlands will play or how oval pitch will start of with.. in india you have 25 test centres.. ranchi pune nagpur indore vizag kanpur cochi all tier 2 cities but they host test matches.. data set is low and you dont know how weather and pitch will be except that it will turn.. i really admire the england team of 2012 how they won the series after being 1- 0 down.. india won tosses in both matches and scored 300 + but they beat us in our own game by bowling line and length ( panesar and swan) and having two of their greatest batsmen playing two once in a life time innings ( KP and Cook) much like how Rahane Gill and Pant played in Australia.. so to win you need all these plus toss luck and still you are not sure how it will end.. thats the beauty of tests in India..

[mishra]

India in India is like a car in cruise control mode on empty motorway while other think they are driving in streets of Banglore

[raki05]

2 hours ago, Norman said:

And I don't see how other teams getting "handicapped" is India's problem. If they don't have good enough spinners or their batters are dog shite against any decent spin , how is it "cheating" if we try and exploit that? 

 

Matlab kuch bhi 

 

[zen]

2 hours ago, Norman said:

 

 

You still haven't explained how it's "unfair" to anyone and how it can termed as cheating? 

 

 

Tailoring pitches is cheating. It is unfair to cricket and teams taking time to play cricket to be subjected to playing on pitches that cannot be termed as cricket. Those pitches are usually prepared by leaving them unprepared relatively and/or selective preparation. 

 

India is playing cricket since 1930s, the over reliance on extreme turners is a relatively recent phenomena. 

 

Quote

South Africa prepared some of the most seam friendly wickets you'll ever see the last two times we were there, and so did England most of the times. Are they being unfair and is that too "cheating"? Sri Lanka , Bangladesh prepare rank turners too more often than not... why do their spinners never look as good then? 

 

As I said, I care more about how my teams play cricket. Logical fallacies and whataboutism cannot be used to try to justify everything. The discussion is on getting our house in order. 

 

Seam friendly pitches, much like normal spin friendly pitches, are ok.  Having 1-2 seam friendly pitches does not equate to India turning almost every pitch unsporting garbage. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by zen

[zen]

Just saw a video posted here about some Indian fans abusing OZ fans in Delhi  

 

These are probably the type of people, whose life is shaped by interacting with other like minded folks in India (much like Indians talk about inbreeding in Pak, being subjected to mostly Indians in India has its negatives when it comes to diverse thinking). And unfortunately, in India cheating can be relatively common in many spheres so it is not surprising that many of these guys don't even realize when they cheat (on top of that, like minded views offer consolation, at times, through justifications using logical fallacies). 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by zen

[Norman]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Tailoring pitches is cheating. It is unfair to cricket and teams taking time to play cricket to be subjected to playing on pitches that cannot be termed as cricket. Those pitches are usually prepared by leaving them unprepared relatively and/or selective preparation

 

Again what is the definition here of "tailoring"? Even Aussie fans would laught at your assertion that preparing wickets that suit your playing style amounts to cheating. 

 

Wickets in New Zealand often look as green as the outfield but no one says they're cheating just because they under prepared the wicket by keeping the grass on. 

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

India is playing cricket since 1930s, the over reliance on extreme turners is a relatively recent phenomena.

 

So just because it's a recent phenomena, it's cheating and unfair. Doesn't make any sense. 

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

Seam friendly pitches, much like normal spin friendly pitches, are ok.  Having 1-2 seam friendly pitches does not equate to India turning almost every pitch unsporting garbage. 

 

 

And what makes you think that the ones we got aren't "normal" spin friendly wickets. When was the last time india lost 20 wickets in a test match at home? You're just basing your arguments off the ineptitude of foreign batters while facing the Indian bowling attack. And maybe also the "count" made to look like an Indian classical dance master on these wickets... 

[Gollum]

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

He would. He would adapt to any era and he will destroy anyone on clay courts including past greats like Borg lendl and kuerton.

 

It's a blow out. 

No, his entire clay dominance is based on high rpm top spin which bounces shoulder high on ad court of right handers (brutal on OHBHs). 

Peak Kuerten (OHBH) would test him even with modern tech, what blow out?

Without modern day string tech, Nadal's top spin is gone. Still would dominate but not like this. 

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

Can't say the same about fed who may lose to sampras for example. 

Fed wouldn't find it easy in pre-2002 grass. Sampras is the grass GOAT for me. 

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

 

Also with HCs. Nadal actually beat fed on hard courts too though. It'd 3-1 in Oz open.

Slow courts, he wouldn't have beaten him on Rebound Ace or post 2016 AO. CPI on plexicushion is a different matter though.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

Don't recall them facing in us open but there was a time when nadal was running through everyone in us open until he had a major injury which forced him to adapt once again.

Main reason he has multiple USOs is weak ass draws (plain luck)....then the additional factor of Fed-Nole being drawn together all the time. 

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

 

As for nole. Nole himself is greater than federer.

He is also greater than Nadal. Federer still has edge over Nadal in key areas like weeks at #1, ATP FInals. Nole has conquered everything.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

Compare their hard court performances in masters. Don't worry about clay or grass. Nadal still whips federer there too. Only place federer has an advantage is in grass and fast indoor hard courts. Not outdoor. Indoor.

Fed still has the edge. Even in outdoor HCs despite many of them being slow. 

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

Don't forget 18 year old nadal beat prime peak federer in grass. 

21/22, not 18.

 

Besides there were other reasons (apart from match-up disadvantage), like the mental scars of RG final beatdown a few weeks before, Fed's mono. Great achievement nonetheless. 

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

What makes you think his top spin won't work in 90s?

Already explained above.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

The guy is the king of adapting to surfaces. He beat federer on grass in his peak for God sake. Tok him to 5 sets the year before he beat him.

Then why hasn't he been able to take one set off Nole since 2013 USO in HCs? 10 years, not one set against Nole, think about it.

Why has he never won the ATP finals (indoor)?

Why did he petition for blue clay to be removed from Madrid? Federer won that event if you remember, not Nadal.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

Prime pre injured nadal is the bets player of all time.

No, Novak (2011 version or 2015-16 one) is, and not even close. 

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

Remember, fed did have major issues vs Murray and even guys like berdych tsonga gave him huge problems prior to 2014 ish. 

Every single player has had issues against lesser opponents. I can list out many examples here. Like Davydenko-Nadal?

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

 

Murray infact had a winning record at one point before fed. 

So what? became one-sided soon after.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

 

Sampras, connors and serve and volley players can trouble him on faster courts too

 

Not denying. But Fed/Nole will have some chance in 90s grass, Nadal wouldn't make it to week 2.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Gollum

[Tillu]

DRS didn't really affect the number of LBW dismissals in the current era.

 

 

 

[zen]

13 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

Again what is the definition here of "tailoring"? Even Aussie fans would laught at your assertion that preparing wickets that suit your playing style amounts to cheating. 

 

 

 

 

Haven't I already said - "leaving the pitch relatively unprepared or selective preparation" where certain areas can be exploited for turn, certain areas for low bounce, etc. 

 

I am not concerned with Aussie fans and I am not sure you interact with many Aussie fans. 

 

Quote

Wickets in New Zealand often look as green as the outfield but no one says they're cheating just because they under prepared the wicket by keeping the grass on. 

 

Grass actually can help the wicket to last for like 5 days. What grass can do is also keep the ball relatively new. On a grass wicket, a batsman can play on either front foot or back foot relatively comfortable, the bounce is relatively even.

 

If it is evil, it is lesser of the two evils. Such pitches can be found in multiple countries including India. 

 

Talking about NZ, it has pitches where it can become easier to bat on as the game progresses. 

 

 

Quote

So just because it's a recent phenomena, it's cheating and unfair. Doesn't make any sense. 

 

The point is on rank turners not being a standard feature in India, which is playing cricket since 1930s. 

 

Rank turners are unfair and constitute blatant cheating as already explained. 

 

 

Quote

And what makes you think that the ones we got aren't "normal" spin friendly wickets. When was the last time india lost 20 wickets in a test match at home? You're just basing your arguments off the ineptitude of foreign batters while facing the Indian bowling attack. And maybe also the "count" made to look like an Indian classical dance master on these wickets... 

 

The answers are already provided if you put 2 + 2 together. Normal pitches do not turn like Day 4/5 pitches on day 1, esp. the rough present at the crease, the uneven bounce. 

 

It is based on observing the pitch, not the result. I think India is a good enough team to succeed even on normal pitches, it does not need to resort to such "cheating". 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by zen

[Norman]

And then comes this low effort assumption that each and every test match wicket in India is a "rank turner". 

 

Last year against Sri Lanka, mohali was a flat patta where we scored 650 or something. Against New Zealand, the kanpur one was another slow low road where their tail enders escaped with a draw. The Mumbai wicket was a proper bowler friendly wicket with a bit for every one (siraj was unplayable that game).

 

Against England , except the Ahmedabad pink ball test (that too mostly because of the pronounced seam) there was nothing too exaggerated for the spinners in the remaining games. 

 

And the 2019 SAF series had some of the flattest wickets that I've seen in India. 

 

 

So i don't get where this self loathing assessment of " We prepare unfair cheating spinning wickets almost every game".

 

 

 

 

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Norman said:

And then comes this low effort assumption that each and every test match wicket in India is a "rank turner". 

 

Last year against Sri Lanka, mohali was a flat patta where we scored 650 or something. Against New Zealand, the kanpur one was another slow low road where their tail enders escaped with a draw. The Mumbai wicket was a proper bowler friendly wicket with a bit for every one (siraj was unplayable that game).

 

Against England , except the Ahmedabad pink ball test (that too mostly because of the pronounced seam) there was nothing too exaggerated for the spinners in the remaining games. 

 

And the 2019 SAF series had some of the flattest wickets that I've seen in India. 

 

 

So i don't get where this self loathing assessment of " We prepare unfair cheating spinning wickets almost every game".

 

 

 

On ICF, 10 people can interpret a post in 10 different ways.  Read the post to interpret it properly. 

[vvvslaxman]

19 minutes ago, Norman said:

And then comes this low effort assumption that each and every test match wicket in India is a "rank turner". 

 

Last year against Sri Lanka, mohali was a flat patta where we scored 650 or something. Against New Zealand, the kanpur one was another slow low road where their tail enders escaped with a draw. The Mumbai wicket was a proper bowler friendly wicket with a bit for every one (siraj was unplayable that game).

 

Against England , except the Ahmedabad pink ball test (that too mostly because of the pronounced seam) there was nothing too exaggerated for the spinners in the remaining games. 

 

And the 2019 SAF series had some of the flattest wickets that I've seen in India. 

 

 

So i don't get where this self loathing assessment of " We prepare unfair cheating spinning wickets almost every game".

 

 

 

 

 

Certain guy getting owned by Tukloo Leach has hurt some fanboy lol. On the same track Ashwin made a 100 in 141 balls lol

 

 

 

 

[Norman]

Somewhere in a parallel universe, where india doesn't have spinning allrounders of not even half the quality of Ash-Jad-Axar...we're losing one test after the other with this joke of a batting lineup with all games going to atleast day 4 and the likes of Root, Lyon, Maharaj getting MOS awards while the so called experts not uttering a single word on the type of wickets prepared. 

[neel roy]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Somewhere in a parallel universe, where india doesn't have spinning allrounders of not even half the quality of Ash-Jad-Axar...we're losing one test after the other with this joke of a batting lineup with all games going to atleast day 4 and the likes of Root, Lyon, Maharaj getting MOS awards while the so called experts not uttering a single word on the type of wickets prepared. 

its not a parallel universe. Just imagine Ojha was still playing. He is same age as ashwin. Also we have shahbaz nadeem. Kuldeep yadav. So our tail would be

 

nadeem

kuldeep

ojha

shami

siraj

 

 

I shudder..

 

[speedracer]

6 hours ago, Gollum said:

No, his entire clay dominance is based on high rpm top spin which bounces shoulder high on ad court of right handers (brutal on OHBHs). 

Peak Kuerten (OHBH) would test him even with modern tech, what blow out?

Without modern day string tech, Nadal's top spin is gone. Still would dominate but not like this. 

Fed wouldn't find it easy in pre-2002 grass. Sampras is the grass GOAT for me. 

Slow courts, he wouldn't have beaten him on Rebound Ace or post 2016 AO. CPI on plexicushion is a different matter though.

Main reason he has multiple USOs is weak ass draws (plain luck)....then the additional factor of Fed-Nole being drawn together all the time. 

He is also greater than Nadal. Federer still has edge over Nadal in key areas like weeks at #1, ATP FInals. Nole has conquered everything.

Fed still has the edge. Even in outdoor HCs despite many of them being slow. 

21/22, not 18.

 

Besides there were other reasons (apart from match-up disadvantage), like the mental scars of RG final beatdown a few weeks before, Fed's mono. Great achievement nonetheless. 

Already explained above.

Then why hasn't he been able to take one set off Nole since 2013 USO in HCs? 10 years, not one set against Nole, think about it.

Why has he never won the ATP finals (indoor)?

Why did he petition for blue clay to be removed from Madrid? Federer won that event if you remember, not Nadal.

No, Novak (2011 version or 2015-16 one) is, and not even close. 

Every single player has had issues against lesser opponents. I can list out many examples here. Like Davydenko-Nadal?

So what? became one-sided soon after.

Not denying. But Fed/Nole will have some chance in 90s grass, Nadal wouldn't make it to week 2.

Clay masters and clay courts are actually the toughest type of surfaces to play in. Requires more power strength and endurance. Nadal being the best there indicates that he is the best of them all. 

 

Point being nadal can and has beaten fed in grass. Fed never has beaten nadal in French open. 

 

Nole may be greater than everyone else but nadal is a level above federer too. 

 

At this point it's all conjecture. You can say match up issue etc or change in surfaces but nadala beat federer even before 2016 on faster AO courts. Mental scars sure but nadal caused those mental scars so full credit goes to him. 

 

Nadal being such a gifted athlete I am 100% certain he would adapt to any era. He is that good.

 

He would still win majority of the French opens in any era but federer will have serious issues vs sampras Connors etc on fast grass. Even nole can trouble him there. 

 

Only guarantee is nadal winning most French slams. Just unmatched there. It's too hard for any player from past era to match his physicality. 

[zen]

Talking about tennis,  I used to follow the Becker-Edberg rivalry, along w/ Graf-Sabatini (school kid crushes)

 

Then I lost interest when relatively machine like players such as Sampras, Courier, etc. took over  ... though used to like/follow Agassi a bit too ...   Ivanisevic used to serve well ...  Seles, Hingis, Pierce, etc., 

 

In school, I used to be a master of many sports - 100m, high jump, long jump, hockey, table tennis, & of course cricket, ... total sports

[speedracer]

51 minutes ago, zen said:

Talking about tennis,  I used to follow the Becker-Edberg rivalry, along w/ Graf-Sabatini (school kid crushes)

 

Then I lost interest when relatively machine like players such as Sampras, Courier, etc. took over  ... though used to like/follow Agassi a bit too ...   Ivanisevic used to serve well ...  Seles, Hingis, Pierce, etc., 

 

In school, I used to be a master of many sports - 100m, high jump, long jump, hockey, table tennis, & of course cricket, ... total sports

If you like agassi then nadal is agassi×100. Greatest match winner ever.