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Is India now the hardest place to play


neel roy

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16 hours ago, Gollum said:

Again Masters has a clay skew. 

Clay has 3 masters 1000 tourneys (Monte Carlo, Madrid, Rome), grass none. Not to overlook how most of the HCs too play like in this era, look at the court pace indices. 

 

Nadal also benefitted most with racquet change technology, no way he is getting the same top spin with 90s strings. Too many things in his favor, unlike Fed/Nole he won't do well if transported to another era. So what?

with his current game, he may not do well in 90s - I agree with that. however, this is a lot like saying pele would not do well in modern era. if a given player is transported to a different era, it is reasonable to assume they would train and prepare differently.

 

on the whole, I do agree that nadal wouldn't be as dominant in the past as before, but I still regard him as one of the top 4 of all time (in open era) and I think he would still have a bunch of titles in that era by tuning his game to an extent. just to clarify, I am not disagreeing with you, but expressing my take on the subject.

Edited by Vijy
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3 hours ago, speedracer said:

Point being nadal can and has beaten fed in grass. Fed never has beaten nadal in French open. 

Nole has beaten Fed thrice in Wimbledon finals, 3-0 record in fact. He has also beaten Nadal in French Open twice. But Fed/Nadal have never beaten Nole in his backyard, Australian Open.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

 

Nole may be greater than everyone else but nadal is a level above federer too. 

Not really, Fed is also 5-6 years elder to Nole/Nadal.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

 

At this point it's all conjecture. You can say match up issue etc or change in surfaces but nadala beat federer even before 2016 on faster AO courts. Mental scars sure but nadal caused those mental scars so full credit goes to him. 

If you think Nadal has beaten Federer before 2016 on faster AO courts, I am pretty sure you haven't followed tennis in that period. Nadal beat him on Plexicushion which is closer to clay than even medium hard.

3 hours ago, speedracer said:

He would still win majority of the French opens in any era but federer will have serious issues vs sampras Connors etc on fast grass. Even nole can trouble him there. 

Not Connors. Sampras, Edberg, McEnroe yes.

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2 hours ago, speedracer said:

If you like agassi then nadal is agassi×100. Greatest match winner ever.

Hyperbole. Some respect to Agassi please, last person to actually win a career grand slam. That feat has lost its charm after surface homogenization. 

 

Imagine Nadal against Ivanisevic in 90s grass His court position will be in the stands, with the fans :phehe:

Why didn't anyone exploit Nadal's DEEP returning position? | Talk Tennis14 Reasons Why Rafa has 14 French Opens - FM TennisRafael Nadal is 'out of control' - fans mock Spaniard for US Open tactics  vs Berrettini | Tennis | Sport | Express.co.uk

 

Also Nadal, Agassi are different kind of players with different strengths. Agassi was proto-Djokovic...aggressive baseliner, GOAT return of serve, similar backhand etc. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

GOAT return of serve

Yup.. i still remember an exhibition match.. fedrer in his peak played a retired older agassi. Agassi trolling him with microphone on and let one backhand rip and said ' there i am not intimidated or something', federer stood there sheepishly said ' i dint even see it ( the return as it was too quick) 

 

Agassi was ridiculous in return..

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52 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Nole has beaten Fed thrice in Wimbledon finals, 3-0 record in fact. He has also beaten Nadal in French Open twice. But Fed/Nadal have never beaten Nole in his backyard, Australian Open.

Not really, Fed is also 5-6 years elder to Nole/Nadal.

If you think Nadal has beaten Federer before 2016 on faster AO courts, I am pretty sure you haven't followed tennis in that period. Nadal beat him on Plexicushion which is closer to clay than even medium hard.

Not Connors. Sampras, Edberg, McEnroe yes.

what about laver? tilden? borg? budge? perry? gonzalez? although I enjoy this cross-era comparisons and take part in them actively, a part of my brain considers them amusing exercises in futility.

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Hyperbole. Some respect to Agassi please, last person to actually win a career grand slam. That feat has lost its charm after surface homogenization. 

 

Imagine Nadal against Ivanisevic in 90s grass His court position will be in the stands, with the fans :phehe:

Why didn't anyone exploit Nadal's DEEP returning position? | Talk Tennis14 Reasons Why Rafa has 14 French Opens - FM TennisRafael Nadal is 'out of control' - fans mock Spaniard for US Open tactics  vs Berrettini | Tennis | Sport | Express.co.uk

 

Also Nadal, Agassi are different kind of players with different strengths. Agassi was proto-Djokovic...aggressive baseliner, GOAT return of serve, similar backhand etc. 

 

Mentally gets disintegrated easily though. Agassi. Aussies actually a bas mtcup for fedrer. 

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Nole has beaten Fed thrice in Wimbledon finals, 3-0 record in fact. He has also beaten Nadal in French Open twice. But Fed/Nadal have never beaten Nole in his backyard, Australian Open.

Not really, Fed is also 5-6 years elder to Nole/Nadal.

If you think Nadal has beaten Federer before 2016 on faster AO courts, I am pretty sure you haven't followed tennis in that period. Nadal beat him on Plexicushion which is closer to clay than even medium hard.

Not Connors. Sampras, Edberg, McEnroe yes.

2009

2012 and 14 iirc

Nadl whipped federe.

 

Nadal at his best is a superior player to fed. Even on outdoor hard courts 

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2 hours ago, Gollum said:

Hyperbole. Some respect to Agassi please, last person to actually win a career grand slam. That feat has lost its charm after surface homogenization. 

 

Imagine Nadal against Ivanisevic in 90s grass His court position will be in the stands, with the fans :phehe:

Why didn't anyone exploit Nadal's DEEP returning position? | Talk Tennis14 Reasons Why Rafa has 14 French Opens - FM TennisRafael Nadal is 'out of control' - fans mock Spaniard for US Open tactics  vs Berrettini | Tennis | Sport | Express.co.uk

 

Also Nadal, Agassi are different kind of players with different strengths. Agassi was proto-Djokovic...aggressive baseliner, GOAT return of serve, similar backhand etc. 

 

Gollum, I respect federer but people paraded him as a goat and never gave Nadal or nole a chance. Him being 5 years old is unfortunate. I would have loved to see prime peak Fed vs peak Nadal and peak nole compete. 

 

Fed will win majority of grass slams for sure. 70%

Nadal wins clay courts 95% 

Outdoor hard becomes a lottery

 

On faster us open its 50 50 between frd and djoker

Nadal and nole 60 40 for slow courts

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On 2/22/2023 at 8:06 AM, Vijy said:

@Gollum navratilova vs evert vs graf vs seles (pre-attack and doing extrapolation) vs hingis (pre-injury and doing extrapolation) vs serena

Seles is a big unknown, the biggest tragedy in tennis. Could have surpassed everyone if not for that stabbing.

 

Hingis was probably the craftiest of them all, highest court IQ (probably including men's side), but no real power and she couldn't keep up. Sorry, doesn't belong in this hallowed list. 

 

Evert was another ATG (my favorite, need another post altogether to talk about her greatness) but couldn't match the physicality that Navratilova 2.0 brought to the game.

 

Graf has a big question mark next to her records, because of what happened to her greatest rival, Seles.

 

For me Serena is the GOAT (not talking about her inspiring/incredible journey as a black lady in this white, upper class sport with racism problems)....just as a player. Had the toughest competition of them all, best all-round game, incredible mental toughness yada yada. But what is the clincher for me is her serve. While Graf had the GOAT FH, Henin the GOAT BH, Navratilova the GOAT volley etc. the most important shot in women's tennis is serve. And Serena had a serve which many top 100 men would gladly take. Not just the high pace but accuracy, ball toss (makes it impossible to read), second serve (clutchness), variety (GOAT kick and slice serves).....the greatest shot in the history of women's tennis. So many free points, escapes, takeover of rallies from first shot itself etc. Controversial take but I'll just say that if Murray had Serena's second serve, his numbers would look very different :phehe:, and he'd have probably nicked one of the Australian Open trophies from Nole:winky:. Mental strength all of these players had in plenty.

 

My ranking:

 

Serena

Navratilova

Graf

Evert

 

Seles could have been in this tier, maybe even pushing Serena at top spot, alas. I am sure she would have eventually conquered Wimbledon as well, easier for women to switch between surfaces even before homogenization, reason obvious.

 

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On 2/22/2023 at 8:03 AM, Vijy said:

what about laver? tilden? borg? budge? perry? gonzalez? although I enjoy this cross-era comparisons and take part in them actively, a part of my brain considers them amusing exercises in futility.

Borg, not on grass, He was still a baseliner at the end of the day. Laver sure, even Federer idolizes him.

 

Others too far back in time, maybe some other day. I remember writing a long post about Pancho Gonzales here, one of the most interesting tennis figures of all time. 

 

 

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On 2/22/2023 at 7:23 AM, Vilander said:

Yup.. i still remember an exhibition match.. fedrer in his peak played a retired older agassi. Agassi trolling him with microphone on and let one backhand rip and said ' there i am not intimidated or something', federer stood there sheepishly said ' i dint even see it ( the return as it was too quick) 

 

Agassi was ridiculous in return..

Yup, that too on those fast courts of that era. Though sometimes flashy/inconsistent his return was such a weapon, Sampras with his GOAT serve and Agassi at the other end watching like a hawk......people sometimes unfairly label that era as boring. May not have had as many classic rallies but those 1-2 knockout punches, daredevil volley attempts and passing shots at that pace (often while running or off balance) made for thrilling viewing, 

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57 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@speedracer this is what HC played like in 90s. You think Nadal standing 20 feet behind the baseline would win anything?

 

 

In last 10-12 years only Shanghai has played medium fast, and that too not always. Even Cinci has played only medium.

Nadal would adapt my dude. He will certainly adapt. He has the power game that is unmatched. 

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19 hours ago, Gollum said:

Seles is a big unknown, the biggest tragedy in tennis. Could have surpassed everyone if not for that stabbing.

 

Hingis was probably the craftiest of them all, highest court IQ (probably including men's side), but no real power and she couldn't keep up. Sorry, doesn't belong in this hallowed list. 

 

Evert was another ATG (my favorite, need another post altogether to talk about her greatness) but couldn't match the physicality that Navratilova 2.0 brought to the game.

 

Graf has a big question mark next to her records, because of what happened to her greatest rival, Seles.

 

For me Serena is the GOAT (not talking about her inspiring/incredible journey as a black lady in this white, upper class sport with racism problems)....just as a player. Had the toughest competition of them all, best all-round game, incredible mental toughness yada yada. But what is the clincher for me is her serve. While Graf had the GOAT FH, Henin the GOAT BH, Navratilova the GOAT volley etc. the most important shot in women's tennis is serve. And Serena had a serve which many top 100 men would gladly take. Not just the high pace but accuracy, ball toss (makes it impossible to read), second serve (clutchness), variety (GOAT kick and slice serves).....the greatest shot in the history of women's tennis. So many free points, escapes, takeover of rallies from first shot itself etc. Controversial take but I'll just say that if Murray had Serena's second serve, his numbers would look very different :phehe:, and he'd have probably nicked one of the Australian Open trophies from Nole:winky:. Mental strength all of these players had in plenty.

 

My ranking:

 

Serena

Navratilova

Graf

Evert

 

Seles could have been in this tier, maybe even pushing Serena at top spot, alas. I am sure she would have eventually conquered Wimbledon as well, easier for women to switch between surfaces even before homogenization, reason obvious.

 

I agree largely, although I am not convinced serena faced a rival with near-same ability consistently, which happened during navratilova vs ever - and to a lesser extent, graf who faced some part of seles in her career (I agree with the q marks for Graf).

 

Seles was indeed the 2nd biggest tragedy in all-time tennis, and the biggest in modern-day tennis. reason I put her at no. 2 is because I've done enough reading of maureen connolly, who was rising faster than a falcon.

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