mishra Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Singh bling said: IT is one highest paying industry in India yet IT professionals queue up in front of US and other embassies for H1B and other visas. It's not just unemployment but quality of life which is much better in Canada than any other part of India. Just watch few movies oeoduced in Hollywood in late 80s and early 90s. Specially ones like Terminator and all which have been redone in HD or 3d. Most people in 2023 will find even Indian cities are nowhere close to that level of development. So on conservative estimate, India is atleast 35- 45 years behind US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 57 minutes ago, mishra said: Just watch few movies oeoduced in Hollywood in late 80s and early 90s. Specially ones like Terminator and all which have been redone in HD or 3d. Most people in 2023 will find even Indian cities are nowhere close to that level of development. So on conservative estimate, India is atleast 35- 45 years behind US. 35-45 yrs ago, US/canada didn't have smart TVs, smartphones, internet , Google chatgpt, EVs (expected to be mass adopted in 2-3 yrs)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM2907 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 18 hours ago, ravishingravi said: I must say. I find it hard to buy this. Wonder how the data is built. Punjab has one of the highest immigration and immigrants in pipeline across all states. If there are new industries coming in and people are gainfully employed, then this doesn't make sense. Or there are many low paying jobs with min skill requirements. There are no seats available for IELTS exam for next 3 months. The capex in the state is non existent. Like the article also says, very suspect data. BUY NOW Response to jobs in Haryana Under_Score and Lone Wolf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 10 hours ago, randomGuy said: 35-45 yrs ago, US/canada didn't have smart TVs, smartphones, internet , Google chatgpt, EVs (expected to be mass adopted in 2-3 yrs)... You are talking about advancements in consumer technology which is even true in case of Somalia and Egypt. However I see things in simple terms as metric/indicators of development. 1. Number and purpose of two wheelers vs 3 wheelers and 4 wheelers on Road. Two wheelers should be used as convenince and hobby. 2. Road signs and Cleanliness of the Road 3. How many people are in the industry of domestic help ie There shouldnt be any so called "Kaam Vaali Bai". PS: I belive issues like housing, fuel, food , electricity,medical access, education access (ie extreme poverty) is now satisfactory level from where improvements can happen Edited February 27 by mishra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 47 minutes ago, mishra said: You are talking about advancements in consumer technology which is even true in case of Somalia and Egypt. However I see things in simple terms as metric/indicators of development. 1. Number and purpose of two wheelers vs 3 wheelers and 4 wheelers on Road. Two wheelers should be used as convenince and hobby. 2. Road signs and Cleanliness of the Road 3. How many people are in the industry of domestic help ie There shouldnt be any so called "Kaam Vaali Bai". PS: I belive issues like housing, fuel, food , electricity,medical access, education access (ie extreme poverty) is now satisfactory level from where improvements can happen Warren Buffett somewhere said common man of today is better off than kings of previous times...you talked vehicle ownership. For many people OLA uber is more convenient and cost effective than owning a vehicle....you get everything delivered to home, from furniture to gadgets to grocery...I would say in Many ways India of today is better than US/Canada of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 3 hours ago, randomGuy said: Warren Buffett somewhere said common man of today is better off than kings of previous times...you talked vehicle ownership. For many people OLA uber is more convenient and cost effective than owning a vehicle....you get everything delivered to home, from furniture to gadgets to grocery...I would say in Many ways India of today is better than US/Canada of today. Offcourse there will be some alternatives, but you have to go to work, You have to visit people and you have to travel locally. Lack of amenities and affordabilty are is different to what services and consumer goods are available. As I said, a key indicators like number of people working as domestic help says a lot about countries progress. For example, country where I live in, I know two individuals whose parents were doctors and mooved back to India in 70s. They had permanent domestic help in UK ie doctors could afford it. In 2020, not a single doctor i know has permanent domestic help. They get them for certain works once or twice a week. Edited February 27 by mishra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 (edited) 36 minutes ago, mishra said: Offcourse there will be some alternatives, but you have to go to work, You have to visit people and you have to travel locally. Lack of amenities and affordabilty are is different to what services and consumer goods are available. As I said, a key indicators like number of people working as domestic help says a lot about countries progress. For example, country where I live in, I know two individuals whose parents were doctors and mooved back to India in 70s. They had permanent domestic help in UK ie doctors could afford it. In 2020, not a single doctor i know has permanent domestic help. They get them for certain works once or twice a week. Those who take IELTS already have it easy in India, they aren't working as domestic helps...2 cousins have Canadian PR but are living in India (gurgaon n delhi) happy in India , 2 cousins on TR working n living in Australia...it's matter of personal choice and foreign fitoor/craze in case of many IELTS takers specially Punjabis, otherwise currently in Delhi\india life is paradise ... Edited February 27 by randomGuy mishra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, randomGuy said: Those who take IELTS already have it easy in India, they aren't working as domestic helps...2 cousins have Canadian PR but are living in India (gurgaon n delhi) happy in India , 2 cousins on TR working n living in Australia...it's matter of personal choice and foreign fitoor/craze in case of many IELTS takers specially Punjabis, otherwise currently in Delhi\india life is paradise ... I kind of agree with your opinion here as social mobilty next to non existent in West. Only exception has been Indian diaspora who have done exceptionally well even though they came with zero or negative money, credit of which goes to Indian family values and tradition of education. New generation of Indian moving out of India without education and money are probably better off in India if they put same amount of effort back home and most likely their next genration will be better off then their next generation in West. However I know that there is massive risk of some politicical parties coming to power (specially family based one) screwing up whole Indian state within few years (Chk economic groth of India vs China which was similar till 80s but post Indira ji we got screwed royally vs China). . I dont trust any party other than BJP to deliver and not be family based as they are either family run or their age is so little that they havent seen more than one leader. Even our INC Congress itself regressed in family based party post Narsimha Rao. I want Indian national Congrtess to correct the course, get better leaders as they are only ones who are supposed to have pedigree to be able to provide a alternative to BJP. This milijuli state/family based leaders will exactly redo what they did with India between 80s till 2014. Till then , Not sure if given a choice, staying in India or not staying in India is correct. No one has seen future. But I hope for best which is revival of INC and policy based politics Edited February 27 by mishra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, randomGuy said: Those who take IELTS already have it easy in India, they aren't working as domestic helps...2 cousins have Canadian PR but are living in India (gurgaon n delhi) happy in India , 2 cousins on TR working n living in Australia...it's matter of personal choice and foreign fitoor/craze in case of many IELTS takers specially Punjabis, otherwise currently in Delhi\india life is paradise ... I can cite an example of someone I met in Europe in an Indian restaurant and there are many from Punjab like him. He was working in finance with a major group for 10 years and then decided to come to Europe. To migrate he did a course, and then there was covid. Didn't learn the local language and now working as waiter ? His game plan was to move to Canada to join his sister for which he will do another masters course. Punjab is a lost state. Folks don't know anymore what they are doing. It is tailor made for revolution because they have nothing to look forward to. Canada is just a fool's paradise. They don't know why they are doing. They just have to do it. Its culture now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Such a dangerous situation. @Under_Score Is Ravish or your favourite Ajit Anjum not covering this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Score Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 33 minutes ago, ravishingravi said: Such a dangerous situation. @Under_Score Is Ravish or your favourite Ajit Anjum not covering this ? That you have to go & search I'm viewing this....more of this will happen to BJP mantrees in future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Score Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 22 hours ago, Singh bling said: This Amritpal is mysterious character. He was clean shaven guy in Dubai,came back a year ago started mimicking Bhindranwale. Became head of Waris Punjab de. A month ago he was throwing chairs from Gurdwara's . It's surprising that still he is not arrested. This guy has mentioned a balanced view of the whole situation. https://fb.watch/iYGFFm1fM_/ Edited February 27 by Under_Score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Score Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 (edited) Even though I feel like Amritpal's days are numbered in Punjab....I was surprised to see him speaking Hindi & English fluently regarding his views....What do you guys make of this interview? Edited March 5 by Under_Score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 On 2/26/2023 at 7:55 PM, Singh bling said: IT is one highest paying industry in India yet IT professionals queue up in front of US and other embassies for H1B and other visas. It's not just unemployment but quality of life which is much better in Canada than any other part of India. Thats cause people cant think critically about the costs. I know an individual working in IT who moved to London from Bangalore with his family. He thought he had a good salary, But after taxes and the cost of rent he is reconsidering the move. His daughter went to a good private school in Bangalore but here she is going to a state school (which is decent) that does not match the quality of the school in India. His wife (who was in HR) is struggling to find a job. If the wife gets a job they will have to look for childcare solutions which dents their income massively. This is literally the common situation of Indians in the UK around the London area. For the middle classes in India, it makes little sense to emigrate now. Salaries in India in tier 1 cities are now probably more than the west on a purchase parity basis. The period to do so was probably from 1990 to 2010. Pollution and infra are major gains in the West. But the tax structure is a big issue in non USA destinations. In the USA the green card status delay is a big issue from a settling down POV. Students who go for masters too there is not much delta remaining but I can still see it makes sense to emigrate. This is something I noticed with Chinese student while teaching as a PhD student. 90% went back to their home towns as their quality of life was much better. These were the middle middle class segment to rich class. When I started my undergraduate I was taught by a Chinese Phd who was looking aggressively to settle down in the UK. The situation of the Chinese middle class has changed within a decade or so. If you want to emigrate, the middle east offers a much better solution for Indians who want to earn money to buy big apartments etc in India. Western Europe is a poor decision to make at this moment. Be it student or those mulling mid career moves. Those willing to emigrate need to think about percentiles. With 30 lakhs my IT friend from Bangalore was in the 99% percentile. With 80 lakhs in the UK he was in the 93rd percentile. Considering the long tailed distribution, a movement in percentiles from 90 to 100% marks a large movement in disposable income. Emigration makes sense for those doing manual labour or blue collar jobs. The way western nations are set up, the bottom is pulled up and the top is pull down by tax structure and various other schemes. This is their means of normalisation. dial_100, randomGuy, ravishingravi and 1 other 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 This is what I see are pros and cons of West vs Indian tier 1 cities middle class in service sector. Indian Tier 1 cities Pro - Have domestic help for everything. Dont lift a finger at home. My aunt has 3 maids for specific things. - Relatives at least within India, and accessible given that domestic aviation is cheap. Good for childcare or taking care of old. - easy access to private healthcare. - low tax structure. - rapidly increasing salaries year on year. If India reached 8 trillion by 2030 (feasible). Your salary in real terms will double. West pro - reliable infra for electricity, water, gas broadband etc. - low pollution - generally good work life balance and less office politics - commute times into work much better and more work from home options. Based on the above, if India closes the delta on infra (including commute) and pollution (not likely and it will get worse) in the next decade then it makes 0 sense for people to immigrate. dial_100 and ravishingravi 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 24 minutes ago, G_B_ said: This is what I see are pros and cons of West vs Indian tier 1 cities middle class in service sector. Indian Tier 1 cities Pro - Have domestic help for everything. Dont lift a finger at home. My aunt has 3 maids for specific things. - Relatives at least within India, and accessible given that domestic aviation is cheap. Good for childcare or taking care of old. - easy access to private healthcare. - low tax structure. - rapidly increasing salaries year on year. If India reached 8 trillion by 2030 (feasible). Your salary in real terms will double. West pro - reliable infra for electricity, water, gas broadband etc. - low pollution - generally good work life balance and less office politics - commute times into work much better and more work from home options. Based on the above, if India closes the delta on infra (including commute) and pollution (not likely and it will get worse) in the next decade then it makes 0 sense for people to immigrate. Yes the delta on tangibles doesn't work out especially for mid career moves. For intangibles, there is a clear trade off. I think exposure for a while abroad still has huge cultural value. Especially on personal growth. Long term not sure. G_B_ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Mumbai might do better in medium term on commuting if the infra cones through in next two years. dial_100 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharathh Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 2 hours ago, ravishingravi said: Yes the delta on tangibles doesn't work out especially for mid career moves. For intangibles, there is a clear trade off. I think exposure for a while abroad still has huge cultural value. Especially on personal growth. Long term not sure. On the pros of the west - even in India - other than commuting, public utilities are usually no problem in the tier 1 cities. In my apt it is rare to have a blackout or an outage of any utility - same as I experienced in the US. Work culture has also evolved tremendously in the pvt sector. The younger folks today draw a clear line between work life and personal life. Those in startups or high stress jobs do not have work-life balance anyways. That said, having your parents or some relatives around always make it easier to bring up your family than in places like the US. I don't know how it is in Europe/Aus - but kids here are able to go to their own classes on cycles/taking autos once they become 10+yrs - so no having to drive your kids around endlessly like in the US from class to class. ravishingravi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 21 minutes ago, bharathh said: On the pros of the west - even in India - other than commuting, public utilities are usually no problem in the tier 1 cities. In my apt it is rare to have a blackout or an outage of any utility - same as I experienced in the US. Work culture has also evolved tremendously in the pvt sector. The younger folks today draw a clear line between work life and personal life. Those in startups or high stress jobs do not have work-life balance anyways. That said, having your parents or some relatives around always make it easier to bring up your family than in places like the US. I don't know how it is in Europe/Aus - but kids here are able to go to their own classes on cycles/taking autos once they become 10+yrs - so no having to drive your kids around endlessly like in the US from class to class. Yes, indeed. The quality of life debate is now hinging on matter of pollution. That's it. The only other thing I can think of is that there still higher pay for certain professions. There maybe greater headspace in living abroad with lesser impact of herd mindset. Work culture has evolved but still a long way to go. Especially calling on personal time. I think there is greater need for global mindset in India. Its happening though. In next 5 years with double the GDP, it will have an impact across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharathh Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ravishingravi said: Yes, indeed. The quality of life debate is now hinging on matter of pollution. That's it. The only other thing I can think of is that there still higher pay for certain professions. There maybe greater headspace in living abroad with lesser impact of herd mindset. Work culture has evolved but still a long way to go. Especially calling on personal time. I think there is greater need for global mindset in India. Its happening though. In next 5 years with double the GDP, it will have an impact across the board. Yes def. Ppl of some professions like doctors def have a way better life in the US (I know of friends who hate working in the UK). However, they do have to live in godforsaken places for a while before they can make it to the bigger cities and have a good life. In India otoh - you can have a thriving private practice which is guaranteed to make you filthy rich if you are half decent. Those that only work in hospitals though do have a better time in the US. I am guessing it must be the same for lawyers, professors, and many other white collar professions as well. Not including blue collar which IMO is not comparable in a favourable sense here in India. Even those who want to start things like singing/dance classes earn really well abroad. They will not be able to earn as much in India for sure. Edited March 5 by bharathh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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