If the shoe was on the other foot.....*also Steve Smith BGT 2023 dismissals analysis*

[jalebi_bhai]

Just now, putrevus said:

My bad , you never said don't criticize Kohli. 

 

You are spot on , shoe was on other foot in 2017 and Kohli was taken to cleaners then.He was in terrific form then coming into that series but he failed in that series.

 

But Kohli for some reason gets unusual hate on here ? Some geniuses talk about money he makes and what not as if he is taking money from their pockets.

 

 

Exactly my point.

 

The hate is not just for Kohli, it's for Indian players. Kohli just bears the brunt of it.

 

Not one member of so-called ICF brain trust has bothered to analyze Smith's poor series. Some generic comments here and there, that's it.

 

It's not like I'm asking them to analyze his performance in RSA tour of Aus, it's his performance in India that I'm asking them to breakdown.  

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

For the record Australia dropped Smith from world T20 squad as he consistently under-performed where as Kohli won't be dropped in Tests unless he goes out on his own.

Smith has been an awful t20 player where as Kohli has been the best batsman for India in test cricket before this slump. That is the difference for Kohli getting a long leash.

[jalebi_bhai]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

We will never. Because it doesn't impact India's fortunes. May be we call out as part of generic discussion. We do call out during Ashes or other series. We did call out how Wagner set Smith up and everything. We also called out how Ashwin set him up in Australia. Intensity won't be the same because he is not hurting India's fortunes.

Detach the context from our results. 

 

Just analyze it from a pure technical pov. What went wrong for him this time around? I believe you followed the series closely.....?

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, jalebi_bhai said:

Detach the context from our results. 

 

Just analyze it from a pure technical pov. What went wrong for him this time around? I believe you followed the series closely.....?

Smith was never a technician to begin with. He always finds a funky technique on the fly to make it work most of the time. He tried a few things. Didn't come off. So you cannot analyze Smith too much. He varies his stance, trigger movement everything series to series if needed. That is why  he is one of the most versatile modern cricketer alongwith Joe Root. Kohli has been getting out the exactly same fashion for 3 years. There was one innings one could clearly predict he was going to get out leg before. It happened. Kohli is a frontfoot plonker. We were right to call his technique out.

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Detach the context from our results. 

 

Just analyze it from a pure technical pov. What went wrong for him this time around? I believe you followed the series closely.....?

He to me is also a guesser than reading the ball from bowler's hand.First test he was ready to give inside edge to Jadeja and was only worried about outside edge so when he got beat to inside, he ended getting bowled  Ashwin did  him in Delhi in similar fashion.

 

In 2017 even though he played very well. Everything went right for him in the series also.

 

The only person in this series who looked like he was picking the length and reading the bowlers hands was Axar.Axar played the spinners the best among all batsmen from both sides.

 

Others were just reacting of the pitch or guessing.

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by putrevus

[jalebi_bhai]

20 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Smith was never a technician to begin with. He always finds a funky technique on the fly to make it work most of the time. He tried a few things. Didn't come off. So you cannot analyze Smith too much. He varies his stance, trigger movement everything series to series if needed. That is why  he is one of the most versatile modern cricketer alongwith Joe Root. Kohli has been getting out the exactly same fashion for 3 years. There was one innings one could clearly predict he was going to get out leg before. It happened. Kohli is a frontfoot plonker. We were right to call his technique out.

Even while analyzing/critiquing Smith here you had to drag in Kohli

 

Ok, not an issue. At least you gave some analytical inputs here. 

[jalebi_bhai]

15 minutes ago, putrevus said:

He to me is also a guesser than reading the ball from bowler's hand.First test he was ready to give inside edge to Jadeja and was only worried about outside edge so when he got beat to inside, he ended getting bowled  Ashwin did  him in Delhi in similar fashion.

 

In 2017 even though he played very well. Everything went right for him in the series also.

 

The only person in this series who looked like he was picking the length and reading the bowlers hands was Axar.Axar played the spinners the best among all batsmen from both sides.

 

Others were just reacting of the pitch or guessing.

 

Very few SENA batsmen can read spin out of the hand. But that's only one part of the challenge of playing spin in India. Once wickets deteriorate, the bounce becomes variable.

 

They way I saw it, the Ozs psyched themselves out before the first two tests. Way too much pre-meditation, borderline suicidal level.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Even while analyzing/critiquing Smith here you had to drag in Kohli

 

Ok, not an issue. At least you gave some analytical inputs here. 

 

Just giving you the context. Real Hero for India was Axar and to some exent Rohit/Jaddu with bat.  

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Very few SENA batsmen can read spin out of the hand. But that's only one part of the challenge of playing spin in India. Once wickets deteriorate, the bounce becomes variable.

 

They way I saw it, the Ozs psyched themselves out before the first two tests. Way too much pre-meditation, borderline suicidal level.

The problem is this generation Indian batsmen are also not able to read spinners.No way Lyon should be able to dominate Indian batsmen both in India and Australia.

 

They are also not able to pick lengths so they are just plonking their front foot and playing with hands if ball bounces more or does something different they are in no man's land.

 

Going on back foot and cutting or even sweep or lap sweeping is so rare , they need to visit Sehwag and get lessons on how to play attacking cricket against spinners. Unless you attack spinners you cannot succeed.

 

Pujara was good against spin early in his career but last few years he has become a plonker too.

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

The problem is this generation Indian batsmen are also not able to read spinners.No way Lyon should be able to dominate Indian batsmen both in India and Australia.

 

They are also not able to pick lengths so they are just plonking their front foot and playing with hands if ball bounces more or does something different they are in no man's land.

 

Going on back foot and cutting or even sweep or lap sweeping is so rare , they need to visit Sehwag and get lessons on how to play attacking cricket against spinners. Unless you attack spinners you cannot succeed.

 

Pujara was good against spin early in his career but last few years he has become a plonker too.

 

 

Precisely. A SENA player struggling against spin is not a surprising thing as they play on different pitches with different cricket ball where as these guys are supposed to be better than them. Actually they are not. Khawaja adapted quickly better than these guys. Even Travis head found a method despite being so loose against spin.

[raki05]

 

 

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Precisely. A SENA player struggling against spin is not a surprising thing as they play on different pitches with different cricket ball where as these guys are supposed to be better than them. Actually they are not. Khawaja adapted quickly better than these guys. Even Travis head found a method despite being so loose against spin.

We have to give it to Khawaja, I underestimated him but he has found a second life as an opener .He was just amazing thru out.

 

Another problem with  Indian batsmen in last decade has been their lack of strike rotation and SR especially in SENA countries. They are just not scoring runs for amount of overs they are spending at crease. 

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

We have to give it to Khawaja, I underestimated him but he has found a second life as an opener .He was just amazing thru out.

 

Another problem with  Indian batsmen in last decade has been their lack of strike rotation and SR especially in SENA countries. They are just not scoring runs for amount of overs they are spending at crease. 

 

Gill looked painful to watch. He is also frontfoot plonking much like Kohli blindly that too with hard hands.  There is no back and across game. Axar had that proper back and across game. I saw this senior match that is going on. Gambhir even at this age has that game. Those inside out lofted shots, back cuts, late cuts, fine sweep. You do not over-commit here with no option to adjust your strokes. From little i saw Sarfraz picks the lengths better than some of these guys.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPCh55xuL0s&ab_channel=SportsHighlightsWithSameer

 

[jalebi_bhai]

Pujara's decline vs spin could be related to his knees. 

 

Smith this series just lacked a sense of assurance. Haven't seen his defence getting breached as easily as it was in this series. Ashwin would beat his outside edge in the past.  

[putrevus]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Gill looked painful to watch. He is also frontfoot plonking much like Kohli blindly that too with hard hands.  There is no back and across game. Axar had that proper back and across game. I saw this senior match that is going on. Gambhir even at this age has that game. Those inside out lofted shots, back cuts, late cuts, fine sweep. You do not over-commit here with no option to adjust your strokes. From little i saw Sarfraz picks the lengths better than some of these guys.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPCh55xuL0s&ab_channel=SportsHighlightsWithSameer

 

I would have played Sarfraz  in first test. He won't get any better now if he plays more FC .I would put him in the squad and see how he does in nets and then take a call.

[putrevus]

42 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Pujara's decline vs spin could be related to his knees. 

 

Smith this series just lacked a sense of assurance. Haven't seen his defence getting breached as easily as it was in this series. Ashwin would beat his outside edge in the past.  

You may be right about Pujara's knees being a problem and if Pujara is suspect against spin bowlers then he has no place on this team as he does not have any other value.They should have never brought Pujara back into the squad.

 

As far as Smith IMO it  happens to lot of batsmen who are guessers and  rely more on hand and eye coordination than on technique along with ability to read ball from bowlers hands as they become older.

 

Sehwag, Richards and many others once they lost a step ,their fall was swift.We don't know yet what will happen with Smith but one thing is sure he is on his way down from his glory days. 

 

Tendulkar on other hand had exceptional technique so he could adapt with his age and figure out what worked for him sometimes even during a series.

 

Sangakara and Kallis are other examples of players who had very simple solid techniques, they had so few moving parts so they were effective till the end..

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by putrevus

[Stan AF]

Don't worry OP. there's still a good chance that steve smith will hit his 3rd 100 in Oval and win WTC For australia.

[zen]

S Smith could have done better, however, the first 3 tests gave spinners an unfair advantage (various degrees from bad to worst). Aus (or any such team) only plays a few tests over 3-4 years in such conditions (most irrelevant ones, imo), therefore, he can get a pass. 
 

India plays like 50% of its games at home (and in mostly such irrelevant conditions). However, it is difficult to judge batsmen (even Indian) based on such conditions. One can appreciate a good batting performance but cannot point fingers at a bad one (opposite for the spinners, where good performances are not counted on such tailored pitches while a bad one can get highlighted).
 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by zen

[BacktoCricaddict]

8 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Now can you kindly go into such detail about Smith's performance (or lack of) in this series?

Perhaps to be found on acf forum ;)

 

And before you pounce on me, consider my history of Smith-hate. Am the resident President of the sandpaper brainfade fake tears hate club .... so there.

Edited March 13, 2023 by BacktoCricaddict

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

It's not about whether it's good for India or not. 

 

We as a fan base are the quickest to discredit the performances of our own players. So why aren't we calling out a premier batsman like Smith, who has pretty much **** the bed in this high profile series?

criticizing smith is for Aussie fans, not us. for us, performance of our players matter. dont think we should care what opposition batsmen did.