Was India's greatest fast bowler Kapil Dev a Tim Southee level bowler?

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Southee averages 26 at home and 31 away just like Kapil who coincidently averages similar home and away.

 

1980s was one of the bowling friendly decade just like 2015-2023. However Southee played fair amount of game before 2015 which is reflected Southee's stats also. He has picked up last 200 wickets at avg of 26 and last 300 at avg of 27.

Agreed their averages are similar, but where they differ is Southee has/had supporting cast , which helped him a lot.

 

Kyle Jamieson , Boult, Wagner all have been very good.

 

Kapil was strike/stock bowler  combined even as late as 1990 Australia tour.Prabhakar was his closest support in that tour and he was averaging over 35 compared to 25 of Kapil Dev. Srinath was over 50.

 

When he had supporting cast in spinners in India he also would have averaged lot less like 19.00 he averaged in series against England in 1993.

 

Supporting cast matters a lot for fast bowlers. Imran had Sarfraz , Wasim and home cooked umpires.

 Botham has Willis and others. 

[zen]

Talking about Kapil's record at home. Note that he bowled mostly in the era of home umpires. 

 

 

 

 

[raki05]

On 3/19/2023 at 12:34 PM, AuxiliA said:

 

 

A fanboi of Chhapri Pandya shouldn't be deriding bonafide legends like Kapil, Tendulkar, Gavaskar, etc. 

imagine Chapri Pandya winning a wc as captain and scoring 175 batting at no. 7 in a virtual ko match and doing all this at age 23-24.Just think what would happen to ICF servers and storage.

[AKane]

Even after the advent of Kapil - BCCI  did not realize that he needed a big strong partner ( not Chetan Sharma types )

 

Fast bowlers hunt in pairs. Lindwall and Miller, Trueman and Statham, Lillee and Massie, Proctor and Pollock, Lillee and Thomson, Willis and Botham, Imran and Sarfraz, Imran and Wasim, Wasim and Waqar, Donald and Pollock.....

 

A couple of cases besides Kapil who did not have a true partner -

 

Hadlee did not and that affected the NZ results. Imagine a Wagner type with Hadlee and things would have got..... more interesting.

 

Another case is Wes Hall.  When Hall had Griffith as a partner - WI were unbeatable. Then England did the "Griffith is a chucker" nonsense because they had been battered. Hall without Griffith while still a great bowler was not as effective. He overall averages 25+ similar to Jimmy Anderson. Hall does not look anything like "Jimmy" while bowling. Hall was terrifying - Big Charlie Griffith was worse. Look at Griffith videos on youtube. Clean action and no hint of chucking. Just fast.

 

If Kapil(peak)  had Srinath (peak) as a partner.... I know, I know.... if "ifs" and "buts" were fruits and nuts everyday would be Christmas.

Edited March 21, 2023 by AKane

[vvvslaxman]

13 hours ago, raki05 said:

imagine Chapri Pandya winning a wc as captain and scoring 175 batting at no. 7 in a virtual ko match and doing all this at age 23-24.Just think what would happen to ICF servers and storage.

 

Then the 4 consecutive sixes in a Test match to avoid follow on by 1 run !

[vvvslaxman]

One of the finest thing i appreciate about Kapil's bowling about how he adapted to one dayers. He had this wobbly delivery that would look like leaving the batsman but it won't. Dean Jones time and again succumbed to Kapil against that delivery> Dean Jones was the best ODI batsman in that world during that phase. That accurate landing, controlled swing. 

 

 

[zen]

Appears as if Kapil's bowling in tests, which is what the thread is about, can be judged by his batting!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Adamant]

11 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

One of the finest thing i appreciate about Kapil's bowling about how he adapted to one dayers. He had this wobbly delivery that would look like leaving the batsman but it won't. Dean Jones time and again succumbed to Kapil against that delivery> Dean Jones was the best ODI batsman in that world during that phase. That accurate landing, controlled swing. 

 

 

One thing to note. 

 

The ICFERs here would have called Kapil another trundler from trundler factory bcoz he never bowled 140+.

 

That's why I say to these experts that 140kph is not the be all end all. 

[Majestic]

14 hours ago, AKane said:

Even after the advent of Kapil - BCCI  did not realize that he needed a big strong partner ( not Chetan Sharma types )

 

Fast bowlers hunt in pairs. Lindwall and Miller, Trueman and Statham, Lillee and Massie, Proctor and Pollock, Lillee and Thomson, Willis and Botham, Imran and Sarfraz, Imran and Wasim, Wasim and Waqar, Donald and Pollock.....

 

A couple of cases besides Kapil who did not have a true partner -

 

Hadlee did not and that affected the NZ results. Imagine a Wagner type with Hadlee and things would have got..... more interesting.

 

Another case is Wes Hall.  When Hall had Griffith as a partner - WI were unbeatable. Then England did the "Griffith is a chucker" nonsense because they had been battered. Hall without Griffith while still a great bowler was not as effective. He overall averages 25+ similar to Jimmy Anderson. Hall does not look anything like "Jimmy" while bowling. Hall was terrifying - Big Charlie Griffith was worse. Look at Griffith videos on youtube. Clean action and no hint of chucking. Just fast.

 

If Kapil(peak)  had Srinath (peak) as a partner.... I know, I know.... if "ifs" and "buts" were fruits and nuts everyday would be Christmas.

Support is a valid point..Pacers hunt in pair and Kapil was lone warrior so had to do all the hard yards himself.

 

Kapil didn't even had a Kumble/Ashwin level spinner to reduce the workload so he gets some brownie points for it.

 

But his bowling career has to be divided into two halves.

 

First half(till 1983)- Excellent with bowl. Matches 62, wkts 247, 4 wkts per match is great level for a bowler. AVG 27, it could have been 23-24 if he had support.

 

Second half(post 1983)- Average bowler.

Matches - 69, Wkts 187, that's mediocre.

 

[Mariyam]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:15 AM, zen said:

Most of India’s top talents have equivalent or better option in top test playing countries. The players are mostly hyped by local fans as they lack options. Hardly anyone deserves to be in a world AT 11 if chosen from a neutral perspective. 
 

What about Sachin? Dhoni?

[zen]

1 minute ago, Mariyam said:

What about Sachin? Dhoni?

There are equivalent or better options. I don’t think Dhoni would be considered for a World AT Test 11 but at places like ICF you never know as some folks may think that he led India to two LOI world trophies and scored a 90 odd in the ODI final so he can be in a test world AT 11. 
 

[Mariyam]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

There are equivalent or better options. I don’t think Dhoni would be considered for a World AT Test 11 but at places like ICF you never know as some folks may think that he led India to two LOI world trophies and scored a 90 odd in the ODI final so he can be in a test world AT 11. 
 

I don't know about Test XI. Have no emotional investment in that format.

 

However, from my limited understanding of the game both Dhoni and Sachin are in the AT ODI team.

Its a toss up between Gilchrist and Dhoni, with not much to differentiate between the two. Both are all time greats.

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, Majestic said:

Support is a valid point..Pacers hunt in pair and Kapil was lone warrior so had to do all the hard yards himself.

 

Kapil didn't even had a Kumble/Ashwin level spinner to reduce the workload so he gets some brownie points for it.

 

But his bowling career has to be divided into two halves.

 

First half(till 1983)- Excellent with bowl. Matches 62, wkts 247, 4 wkts per match is great level for a bowler. AVG 27, it could have been 23-24 if he had support.

 

Second half(post 1983)- Average bowler.

Matches - 69, Wkts 187, that's mediocre.

 

 

Workload was always going to take toll of him. It was easy to see him off and go after others.

 

In the 1980s Kapil had bowled 4011 overs in Test and ODIs which was the highest for any bowler. Next best was Marshal 3374 overs by Marshall.

 

In Indian history highest balls bowled by players

 

Kumble 55226

Bhajji 41551

Kapil 38942

Ashwin 32166

Zaheer 28952

Srinath 27039

 

 

...

[zen]

23 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

I don't know about Test XI. Have no emotional investment in that format.

 

However, from my limited understanding of the game both Dhoni and Sachin are in the AT ODI team.

Its a toss up between Gilchrist and Dhoni, with not much to differentiate between the two. Both are all time greats.

LOIs offer more scope. 
 

[AKane]

7 hours ago, Majestic said:

First half(till 1983)- Excellent with bowl. Matches 62, wkts 247, 4 wkts per match is great level for a bowler. AVG 27, it could have been 23-24 if he had support.

 

Second half(post 1983)- Average bowler.

Matches - 69, Wkts 187, that's mediocre.

 Kapil was certainly overbowled until 1983......

 

What I noticed was that his jump before delivery (although not as pronounced as Zaheer's) was present before 1983. It was largely gone after 1983. Just what I remember.

[vvvslaxman]

He was also an exceptional fielder. Those days fast bowlers were not that great in fielding. Kapil Dev was the best fielder in the Indian side who could literally field equally well anywhere on the ground.  Slip or close in field or deep field.  Courtney walsh in order to protect his arm would bowl from the boundary line instead of throwing. Kapil had this sling shot throw with pin point accuracy. Add the workload as a batsman. India was so so lucky to have someone like him in the 1980s. Otherwise 80s woudl have been a nightmare.

[Lord]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:31 PM, raki05 said:

imagine Chapri Pandya winning a wc as captain and scoring 175 batting at no. 7 in a virtual ko match and doing all this at age 23-24.Just think what would happen to ICF servers and storage.

no need to imagine. Its not happening

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

no need to imagine. Its not happening

Spot on, Kapil dev in four short years became world class allrounder and captain leading India to title against mighty WI against all odds.

 

Pandya on other hand is still neither this nor that even after 7 years in international cricket.Pandya has improved but still is not world class in anything.

Edited March 23, 2023 by putrevus

[zen]

I don't understand why an unrelated player like SDP has to be dragged into a Kapil v Southee thread (a test bowling thread)!  

 

Since Kapil's 175* is being discussed:

 

First, a great knock. One of the best in ODIs. 

 

Second, it came in a 60-over game. 

 

Third, Kapil did not perform much in WC KO games (though you can count the group game v Zim as important).

 

Fourth, such a performance has never been replicated by Kapil himself (putting it in a fluke category or maybe something like a Kishan having a great day against BD). In fact, Kapil Dev has never scored a 100 in a game that is 50 overs or less. He was actually removed from captaincy for playing a rash stroke in the 1987 WC SF v Eng (also did mundane formulaic captaincy). 

 

Fifth, his highest score in a 50-over game is 87 against WI in 1988. After that, he scored another 50 in that series, and then never scored even a 50 till he retired in 1994 (a 6-7 year period). 

 

 

No cricketer should try to be like Kapil Dev, who basically milked Indian cricket esp. based on one fluke knock and/or the WC win. (That period was a "Hai Hai" zamana where you could hear chants such as "Shastri hai hai" at stadiums. Kapil was booed in his last ODI as well, then he retired). Kapil Dev is NOT an ideal role model (maybe for trundlers to extend their careers). The assumption that any cricketer has to be like Kapil is laughable. Other cricketers can make an impact in their own way. 

 

Nothing, including dragging unrelated players in unrelated conversations, along with offering excuses, can polish Kapil's stats because he was inconsistent and mediocre for a large part of his career. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

Spot on, Kapil dev in four short years became world class allrounder and captain leading India to title against mighty WI against all odds.

 

Pandya on other hand is still neither this nor that even after 7 years in international cricket.Pandya has improved but still is not world class in anything.

 

Pandya once injured himself when he celebrated lol From a fitness point of view comparing Pandya with Kapil is an insult.