The middle order question for Bharatiya cricket team

[Nash]

now it's time to give middle finger to middle order probelm. 

 

Rahul, surya, kishan,tilak,pandya. 

Pandya are always in as he is allrounder. 

Rahul/Kishan because of wicket keeping. 

Surya or tilak. I guess tilak should get some chances as he can bowl spin right arm off break. He can bat left arm. best option. 

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

We have KL, Iyer and Ishan in MO. If Hardik and Jadeja are more reliable, at least the top 3 can and should play no-holds-barred aggressive cricket in PP, at least this WC. Stop tuk-tuking top 3!!

 

Jadeja can be reliable. But useless reliable. His strike rate oflate has taken a nose dive. He plays like Test match in the backend. Tuk tuks till 49.4 overs and swings for bleachers.

[Norman]

I know it's been said multiple times already but Jadeja at 7 is still a huge probelm for us especially against decent sides. Basically, we need a perfect batting game like we did against Pakistan to get to 350+ where in a set top 4 batter bats his way through to the 50th over.. fortunately two set batters were there that day..

 

Even if we are 200/4 in 35 overs, we won't be sure of crossing even 320 thanks to this guy tuk tuning and our pathetic tail. 

[Norman]

This is why we should have groomed a couple of batting all rounders to counter Aus/Eng on batting paradises. It's useless to play the like of Axar, Thakur, Jadeja against those monster lineups. On a day Bumrah, Kuldeep, Siraj and Pandya are getting smoked, there's no way the above aren't. It only serves to weaken the batting..

 

I'd have something like this on a flat batting wicket against Aus/Eng..

 

Rohit

Gill

Kohli

KL

Kishan

Iyer/SKY

Tilak

Pandya

Kuldeep

Bumrah

Siraj 

 

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, Norman said:

This is why we should have groomed a couple of batting all rounders to counter Aus/Eng on batting paradises. It's useless to play the like of Axar, Thakur, Jadeja against those monster lineups. On a day Bumrah, Kuldeep, Siraj and Pandya are getting smoked, there's no way the above aren't. It only serves to weaken the batting..

 

I'd have something like this on a flat batting wicket against Aus/Eng..

 

Rohit

Gill

Kohli

KL

Kishan

Iyer/SKY

Tilak

Pandya

Kuldeep

Bumrah

Siraj 

 

 

 

 

You're relying too much on Tilak & Pandya to give you 10 overs each, plus no 6th bowling option.

Tilak is more of a 3-6 over bowler, Pandya a 5-8 over one, you still need another option who can bowl 4-8 overs alongside these 2.

 

Pandya can bat as low as 7, at no 8 he is not going to be useful. No 8 should go to a bowling allrounder who can bowl consistently 7-10 overs, can contribute 20-30 runs with bat and most importantly use the long handle (something like Chris Woakes).

Edited September 14, 2023 by singhvivek141

[Nikhil_cric]

48 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

You're relying too much on Tilak & Pandya to give you 10 overs each, plus no 6th bowling option.

Tilak is more of a 3-6 over bowler, Pandya a 5-8 over one, you still need another option who can bowl 4-8 overs alongside these 2.

 

Pandya can bat as low as 7, at no 8 he is not going to be useful. No 8 should go to a bowling allrounder who can bowl consistently 7-10 overs, can contribute 20-30 runs with bat and most importantly use the long handle (something like Chris Woakes).

England's bowling all-rounders also happen to be their best bowlers or at least offer a very unique skill set.  

 

Woakes was the best PP bowler in the world going into 2019 WC. Plunkett was an exceptional middle overs bowler etc.

 

 

If you look at the 2019 World Cup, Woakes in particular did not score a lot of runs and it came at a low strike rate. Highest of 40 against Windies I believe.

 

His batting numbers were awful for a number 7 unless you take into account that he was a world-class wicket-taking bowler. Plunkett at 8 was smacking the ball and was a brilliant number 8 with a high strike rate though he didn't add a lot of runs.

 

 

That is my gripe with the Rohit/Kohli and current Indian TM school of thought. This idea that our bowlers cannot bat and our batsmen cannot bowl is absolute nonsense and is simply a red herring to include guys who can do neither as "all-rounders".

 

Siraj and Kuldeep were batting in the Asia Cup with proper forward defensive, lol.  They need to be trained in basic power-hitting baseball style - not Test match style batting. All the tailenders - even Naseem Shah hits with a low, open stance and does not look to defend with high elbow.

 

Woakes might bat at 7 again. He failed with the bat once again yesterday. But then came back and took 3 wickets upfront.  Our #7 cannot power-hit consistently to save his life and neither can he break open the game in the middle overs with the ball unless the pitch is turning square.   

 

Travis Head and Glenn Phillips are being turned into 5th/6th bowling options even now -  a month before the World Cup but none of our batsmen will even think of even rolling their arm over and increasing their bowling workloads. 

 

We already have a genuine all-rounder in Pandya who is made for #7. He's much better with the bat than Woakes ever will be.  Just play your 4 best bowlers after that and work on their hitting technique. That's absolutely enough - more than enough. 

 

Take both Iyer and SKY/Varma and increase their off spin workloads . Just make sure they can give it a rip for 4 overs max.

 

Indian team got Shami and Bumrah to hit for a Test tour of England but can't do so for an LOI World Cup?  It's unbelievable the lengths they go to to justify   inclusion of extra bowling "all-rounder" simply because our batsmen can't be bothered to bowl a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[SM2907]

A batsman who is keeping for 50 overs is not the right choice for a no 4 position.  That batsman is better suited at 5 or 6 to spend less time in the middle.

Ishan does not look reliable for a no 5 batting position, the ones who can pull the team out of 20/3 or 60 for 3 position. One innings is not enough.

 

So my choice would be

 

Shreyas Iyer at 4

KL Rahul at 5 as wk 

Hardik Pandya at 6

 

Shreyas Iyer looks a must at 4. All other options look makeshift

 

[prudent_kreeda]

For future , India should think of-  6 pure batsmen(with a WK and at least 1 part time bowler among the six) + Hardik + 4 genuine bowlers combination. 

This should be more so in critical games as one BIG reason for india failing in KO in last decade has been top 3 failing in such matches. Hence add a pure batter and have 4 genuine wicket takers.

There is this  wrong perception of batting depth by having a bits & pieces guy as your #8 . If 7 batsmen cannot get the runs , no point expecting a bits & pieces guy at 8 to get it .

Instead make Bhumra  and Kuldip to help get some runs and bhumra using the long handle a bit better.

Better prepare for a situation with bowlers (which could be once in 10-15 matches ) where we need to get say 15-20 runs in last 3-4 overs with one set batsmen and we are 7-8 down . For that we need # 8-11 to hang on and help the set batsmen to get over the line.

Jaiswal,Gill , Tilak, KL, Pant, Iyer/Surya,Hardik,Bhumra,Kuldip,Siraj & Prasidh should the combo we can start experimenting . 4 Genuine bowlers+hardik Plus 2 part timers for any emergency.

In the meantime try to develop a back up for 

1.  Hardik  - Raj Bava could be tried.

2. A  spinner who can bowl 8-9 overs with some decent batting ability  -Not many but Sai Kishore, Shahbaz. ( Sundar -looks a bit far away re: his bowling) could be looked at in place of declining Jaddu.

3. couple of reserve batters like - Ruturaj,Sai Sudarshan .

4. Pacers who can bowl at death and PP - ??

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by prudent_kreeda

[singhvivek141]

7 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

We already have a genuine all-rounder in Pandya who is made for #7. He's much better with the bat than Woakes ever will be.  Just play your 4 best bowlers after that and work on their hitting technique. That's absolutely enough - more than enough. 

 

Take both Iyer and SKY/Varma and increase their off spin workloads . Just make sure they can give it a rip for 4 overs max.

 

Agree, Pandya is now looking a much polished bowler and tbh..he is more functional as a bowling allrounder at no 7, we can make likes of Sundar bat at no 6 instead who seems to have a higher ceiling with bat.

 

But here comes the million dollar question, does Pandya sees himself as a no 7 batter ?.I think he has made very clear that he wants to bat up (4/5) mostly and not at 7. He may do it now for the WC around the corner, but I doubt he will be happy with this long term arrangement.

 

Post WC, I think we will see some structural changes. Maybe some fresh faces will play in the white ball format and hopefully we will be able to groom some of them for our no 7 & 8 positions. 

[Nikhil_cric]

11 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Agree, Pandya is now looking a much polished bowler and tbh..he is more functional as a bowling allrounder at no 7, we can make likes of Sundar bat at no 6 instead who seems to have a higher ceiling with bat.

 

But here comes the million dollar question, does Pandya sees himself as a no 7 batter ?.I think he has made very clear that he wants to bat up (4/5) mostly and not at 7. He may do it now for the WC around the corner, but I doubt he will be happy with this long term arrangement.

 

Post WC, I think we will see some structural changes. Maybe some fresh faces will play in the white ball format and hopefully we will be able to groom some of them for our no 7 & 8 positions. 

To be honest, I want his bowling more than his batting. He is the most consistent line bowler in this side. Difficult to hit consistently.  

 

Im not sure if batting will affect the overs he can give. If batting more deliveries is taking its toll, he should come in at 7 only and just look to attack from ball 1. I want him to bowl as much as possible. 

 

I think Hardik does see himself as a batter but that would be disappointing. It means he'll start trying to take his time and build an innings. 

 

He is an explosive athlete and we need his hitting and bowling. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

5 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

To be honest, I want his bowling more than his batting. He is the most consistent line bowler in this side. Difficult to hit consistently.  

 

Im not sure if batting will affect the overs he can give. If batting more deliveries is taking its toll, he should come in at 7 only and just look to attack from ball 1. I want him to bowl as much as possible. 

 

I think Hardik does see himself as a batter but that would be disappointing. It means he'll start trying to take his time and build an innings. 

 

He is an explosive athlete and we need his hitting and bowling. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this started to happen when he was injured for the first time, he started bowling sporadically and focused more on his batting skill.

 

Unfortunately, as you said, bowling is his stronger suit ..but he is kinda trying to go in opposite direction (maybe to prolong his career as he has back problems often).

 

But if that's indeed the case, what are our options ? Raj Bawa is the only one which comes to my mind as someone who has good capability in both streams...Vijay Shankar, V Iyer & Shivam Dube are batters who can roll their arm, as their secondary skill is just poor.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Just now, singhvivek141 said:

I think this started to happen when he was injured for the first time, he started bowling sporadically and focused more on his batting skill.

 

Unfortunately, as you said, bowling is his stronger suit ..but he is kinda trying to go in opposite direction (maybe to prolong his career as he has back problems often).

 

But if that's indeed the case, what are our options ? Raj Bawa is the only one which comes to my mind as someone who has good capability in both streams...Vijay Shankar, V Iyer & Shivam Dube are batters who can roll their arm, as their secondary skill is just poor.

 

Bawa is the only one I can think of too. Seam bowling all rounders are rare. 

 

The others you mentioned are more more like 6th bowler/batting all-rounders who will give you a few overs. 

Bawa needs to be developed and handled carefully.

 

But for him to play at 7, we need two batters who can bowl part time spin going forward. 

 

Hopefully, once this stubborn Kohli/Rohit duo are out of the white ball side, the likes of KL and Hardik can get youngsters to develop secondary skills.