ravishingravi Posted October 23, 2023 Author Posted October 23, 2023 5 hours ago, bones said: The difference between the Ukranians and Syrians is there won't be stopped from going back to their homes. Israel has no intention of letting the Palestinians back. - they have history of this and the Egyptians know this all too well. I agree it's not black and white - but one thing is indisputable. The Israelis are occupying Palestinian territory illegally. Unfortunately last 17 years dies not confirm you thesis. Israel have been out of Gaza. If Egypt had to keep open border they very well could have. And which territory are they occupying illegaly ?
bones Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, ravishingravi said: Unfortunately last 17 years dies not confirm you thesis. Israel have been out of Gaza. If Egypt had to keep open border they very well could have. And which territory are they occupying illegaly ? I don't think you have any knowledge of this matter. Compare the current map of occupied land to the one proposed in 1947 and it's clear who is the occupier. Even if you used the 1967 map you can clearly see the Israelis occupying land which is Palestinian.
mishra Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 12 minutes ago, bones said: I don't think you have any knowledge of this matter. Compare the current map of occupied land to the one proposed in 1947 and it's clear who is the occupier. Even if you used the 1967 map you can clearly see the Israelis occupying land which is Palestinian. How many ME nations agreed to map in 1947? None. They disnt stop there. They went ahaed and tried to finish Israel and Jews from face of earth. Now Israelis occupy Golan Heights. Why should they hive up a land which they won after Arabs started military campaign against them. Same will happen to Gaza now. North of Gaza is done the day Israeli troops enter
bones Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, mishra said: How many ME nations agreed to map in 1947? None. They disnt stop there. They went ahaed and tried to finish Israel and Jews from face of earth. Now Israelis occupy Golan Heights. Why should they hive up a land which they won after Arabs started military campaign against them. Same will happen to Gaza now. North of Gaza is done the day Israeli troops enter Agreement or not, the Palestinians were kicked out of their homes. I wonder how you would feel like if the British decided you should be kicked out of your home without some reasonable compensation or even choice only for it to be handed over to someone else. I'm pretty sure you would feel how the Palestinians feel.
mishra Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, bones said: Agreement or not, the Palestinians were kicked out of their homes. I wonder how you would feel like if the British decided you should be kicked out of your home without some reasonable compensation or even choice only for it to be handed over to someone else. I'm pretty sure you would feel how the Palestinians feel. Why doesn’t same arguement apply to “land belonged to Jews before they were kicked out by Christians and Arabs.” You can’t pick and choose history, rules of engagement at ur convenience. PS: Middle path is needed, but both sides needs to give some slack. U don’t want to sign Abraham accord and call as well as execute rape of israeli girls but expect other side to recognise u as nation and do not bomb Hamas as they live among civilians. Edited October 23, 2023 by mishra
bones Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 4 hours ago, mishra said: Why doesn’t same arguement apply to “land belonged to Jews before they were kicked out by Christians and Arabs.” You can’t pick and choose history, rules of engagement at ur convenience. PS: Middle path is needed, but both sides needs to give some slack. U don’t want to sign Abraham accord and call as well as execute rape of israeli girls but expect other side to recognise u as nation and do not bomb Hamas as they live among civilians. I've made my position clear and you have made yours. You are not going to change my opinion.
ravishingravi Posted October 24, 2023 Author Posted October 24, 2023 9 hours ago, bones said: I don't think you have any knowledge of this matter. Compare the current map of occupied land to the one proposed in 1947 and it's clear who is the occupier. Even if you used the 1967 map you can clearly see the Israelis occupying land which is Palestinian. Right so you want to go back to 1967 position. Great. Now with your great knowledge of history, could you let us know why did we get to 1967 in first place. Part 1. Part 2 Are Arab nations including democratically elected Hamas willing to end the conflict if we go back to 1967. Part 3, you have conviniently not answered the question. Your assertion was that Egyptians and other Arab countries don't allow Gaza refugees because your mortal enemies Jews will occupy that land. Okay. In last 17 there are no Jews in Gaza, why is the border closed still ? And you are also confessing that Arab countries don't mind Gaza people losing their lives in crossfire if it can potentially help in not giving more land to Israel. Is that your play ? bharathh and coffee_rules 1 1
bones Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, ravishingravi said: Right so you want to go back to 1967 position. Great. Now with your great knowledge of history, could you let us know why did we get to 1967 in first place. Part 1. Part 2 Are Arab nations including democratically elected Hamas willing to end the conflict if we go back to 1967. Part 3, you have conviniently not answered the question. Your assertion was that Egyptians and other Arab countries don't allow Gaza refugees because your mortal enemies Jews will occupy that land. Okay. In last 17 there are no Jews in Gaza, why is the border closed still ? And you are also confessing that Arab countries don't mind Gaza people losing their lives in crossfire if it can potentially help in not giving more land to Israel. Is that your play ? What an absolute mess of a post. If Israel doesn't stop occupying Palestinian land and imprisoning them in the Gaza strip there will never be peace. If you bothered to read carefully I said, arab countries don't want to let refugees in because they know the Israelis won't them them back in. This has happened repeatedly before. The neighbours know letting Palestinians into their countries is a permanent move.
ravishingravi Posted October 24, 2023 Author Posted October 24, 2023 4 hours ago, bones said: What an absolute mess of a post. If Israel doesn't stop occupying Palestinian land and imprisoning them in the Gaza strip there will never be peace. If you bothered to read carefully I said, arab countries don't want to let refugees in because they know the Israelis won't them them back in. This has happened repeatedly before. The neighbours know letting Palestinians into their countries is a permanent move. I think you keep going around the issue. Pointed questions as a person who doesn't fully support Israel but cant understand what you are talking about. 1) Egypt and other arab nation not taking refugees because Israel wont allow them back. When you say "back" where do you mean ? Gaza or some place else. Gaza is not under Israeli occupation since in 2006. Hamas rules Gaza. 1) Why were the borders closed for 17 years ? 2)Why are they closed now since Israel still doesnt occupy Gaza ? 2) If I assume your point that Israel won't le them back, what are you basing this thesis on ? Has Israel claimed Gaza ? Has Israel said anywhere it wants to occupy Gaza ? Please quote the source 3) What does this say about arab people and maybe even you ? You are willing to block Gazans in this land and risk their lives being lost in crossfire between Hamas and Israel because you dont want them to lost their land. Really this is your best explanation. Best way to test it is to open the borders and lets people in Gaza decide whether they care for their lives or their land. But you want to decide for them. So Gaza is an open prision thanks to you folks not letting them escape.
wanted_desi Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 2 hours ago, ravishingravi said: I think you keep going around the issue. Pointed questions as a person who doesn't fully support Israel but cant understand what you are talking about. 1) Egypt and other arab nation not taking refugees because Israel wont allow them back. When you say "back" where do you mean ? Gaza or some place else. Gaza is not under Israeli occupation since in 2006. Hamas rules Gaza. 1) Why were the borders closed for 17 years ? 2)Why are they closed now since Israel still doesnt occupy Gaza ? 2) If I assume your point that Israel won't le them back, what are you basing this thesis on ? Has Israel claimed Gaza ? Has Israel said anywhere it wants to occupy Gaza ? Please quote the source 3) What does this say about arab people and maybe even you ? You are willing to block Gazans in this land and risk their lives being lost in crossfire between Hamas and Israel because you dont want them to lost their land. Really this is your best explanation. Best way to test it is to open the borders and lets people in Gaza decide whether they care for their lives or their land. But you want to decide for them. So Gaza is an open prision thanks to you folks not letting them escape. This. Normal folks will leave everything behind to save the lives of their loved ones. I doubt they will even think if they will be allowed to come back or not. I have said it before that only thing in hand of these Arab nations is to let border open at this point of time and save people in middle of war zone.
bharathh Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 7 hours ago, bones said: What an absolute mess of a post. If Israel doesn't stop occupying Palestinian land and imprisoning them in the Gaza strip there will never be peace. If you bothered to read carefully I said, arab countries don't want to let refugees in because they know the Israelis won't them them back in. This has happened repeatedly before. The neighbours know letting Palestinians into their countries is a permanent move. Palestinians are the Rohingyas of West Asia. Ungrateful, two-faced, and absolutely undependable. Look at what they did in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc. when they were allowed to settle there. Lebanon became hell after the Palestinian refugees became militant and transformed from the Switzerland of the East to the hellhole it is today. The greatest genocide of Palestinians was actually done by the Pakistanis working for the Jordanians when the Palestinians tried to assassinate the King. Egypt knows that if they are let into their country, it will burn and they will probably lose the Sinai to these Zergs. All the Muslim countries keep the Palestinian issue alive to play the victim card, cry Islamophobia, and act like they are always put down when they themselves hate the Palestinians the most. However, they are useful to them for the above agendas. Even the Syria refugees - almost 0 were absorbed by Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi, Oman even though a lot of them border Syria. Ditto with Iraq
bsriharsha Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 22 minutes ago, bharathh said: Palestinians are the Rohingyas of West Asia. Ungrateful, two-faced, and absolutely undependable. Look at what they did in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc. when they were allowed to settle there. Lebanon became hell after the Palestinian refugees became militant and transformed from the Switzerland of the East to the hellhole it is today. The greatest genocide of Palestinians was actually done by the Pakistanis working for the Jordanians when the Palestinians tried to assassinate the King. Egypt knows that if they are let into their country, it will burn and they will probably lose the Sinai to these Zergs. All the Muslim countries keep the Palestinian issue alive to play the victim card, cry Islamophobia, and act like they are always put down when they themselves hate the Palestinians the most. However, they are useful to them for the above agendas. Even the Syria refugees - almost 0 were absorbed by Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi, Oman even though a lot of them border Syria. Ditto with Iraq Difference between PLO , it's offshoots hamas , Fatah .... And the normal Palestinian who just wants to be free and not trapped in a prison. It's the PLO which committed those actions and hence the countries like Jordan , Egypt are reluctant to take more Palestinians. Also , Israel will not win this by bombing more Gaza citizens. They'll end up only creating more terrorists.
bharathh Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, bsriharsha said: Difference between PLO , it's offshoots hamas , Fatah .... And the normal Palestinian who just wants to be free and not trapped in a prison. It's the PLO which committed those actions and hence the countries like Jordan , Egypt are reluctant to take more Palestinians. Also , Israel will not win this by bombing more Gaza citizens. They'll end up only creating more terrorists. The PLO came from a vacuum? Why does the normal Palestinian always keep voting for Fatah, Hamas, etc.? Why do they always celebrate attacks on Israel? Why does the normal Palestinian not ask Hamas to stop the violence by returning all their hostages? There are so many of them. Is it that they revel in the violence and embrace the concept of matyrdom? Edited October 24, 2023 by bharathh
bones Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 Judging by the responses - it seems that many of the posters here are happy with Israel collectively punishing the Palestinians, an internationally recognised war crime.
mishra Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, bones said: Judging by the responses - it seems that many of the posters here are happy with Israel collectively punishing the Palestinians, an internationally recognised war crime. Most poster on icf have no sympathy with Terrorists , their sympathisers or terrorist ideology. Terrorism needs to be eradicated. You can reuse Your arguement that we agree to disagree
bsriharsha Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 47 minutes ago, bharathh said: The PLO came from a vacuum? Why does the normal Palestinian always keep voting for Fatah, Hamas, etc.? Why do they always celebrate attacks on Israel? Why does the normal Palestinian not ask Hamas to stop the violence by returning all their hostages? There are so many of them. Is it that they revel in the violence and embrace the concept of matyrdom? 1. Fatah is basically a warlord (Abbas) threatening people to vote for him. 2. Hamas was voted to power in 2006 in Gaza when Israel withdrew from the area. This was because people had gotten sick of Fatah's corruption. There were no elections after that 3. The average Palestinian in Gaza is as much a prisoner of Hamas as he is of the Israelis. 4. The average Palestinian would die by Hamas's hands of they rose up and asked the terrorists to give up the hostages 5. The average age of the Palestinian in Gaza is 23. This means that they have known no other leadership than what Hamas has brought. They didn't even vote for such a leadership. 6. Bibi basically said to his party , it's in their best interest to support Hamas so as to kill the 2 nation theory. Israeli leadership actively encouraged Hamas to weaken the 2 nation theory idea. It is possible to condemn terrorist attacks like what Hamas perpetuated on the Israeli citizens and it's also possible in the same vein to condemn what Israel is forcing on the Gaza population.
bharathh Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 1, 2 & 3. Poor Palestinians .. they are able to go to war against the technologically and militarily superior Israelis - but are unable to even protest against Fatah in the West Bank and the Hamas in Gaza. There are only 2M in Gaza and almost 3M in West Bank. Surely, there must be protests from their people outside of these "prisons" on overthrowing the Fatah and Hamas right? There must be strident voices against Hamas and Fatah from Palestinians in foreign countries - esp the West. Who are they? The average Palestinian only believes that their enemies are Jews and Israelis. Noone else. The only thing they yearn for is the total destruction of Israel - not for self-betterment. Does anyone think that if let's say the Jews of Israel vanish tomorrow - Palestinians will live peacefully in that land? What will Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah do? 4. Surely they can try to help Israel rid them of Hamas. So many of them go to Israel for work, medical support, etc. Why didn't they do jack to rid themselves when on Israeli territory? The normal Palestinians are terrorist sympathizers. They see the Israelis as people to enslave and kill 5. Same as the above. Poor 23 year olds. So dumb 6. Really? So it is the Israelis fault now. No sympathy for terrorist sympathizers.
bsriharsha Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, bharathh said: 6. Really? So it is the Israelis fault now. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000 This is written by a Israeli newspaper criticizing Netanyahu. Israelis are criticizing their leadership and the role they've played in encouraging Hamas. And yeah, pushing 2m people into an increasingly crowded prison in Gaza , building illegal settlements taking up more land from the Palestinians is Israel's fault. Call out both sides for the terrible deeds they've inflicted on people. It's really not that tough.
bsriharsha Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 I want all Islamic Terrorist outfits to be dismantled. But doing it the Israeli way will not kill Hamas as an organization. It's not going to help Israel out. People inside Israel know this. Yet keyboard warriors from India blinded by their hatred towards a religion refuse to see that.
bharathh Posted October 24, 2023 Posted October 24, 2023 5 minutes ago, bsriharsha said: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000 This is written by a Israeli newspaper criticizing Netanyahu. Israelis are criticizing their leadership and the role they've played in encouraging Hamas. And yeah, pushing 2m people into an increasingly crowded prison in Gaza , building illegal settlements taking up more land from the Palestinians is Israel's fault. Call out both sides for the terrible deeds they've inflicted on people. It's really not that tough. Behind a paywall. Can't read it. So who are the rational voices of Palestine outside of Palestine calling for the self-betterment of people?
Recommended Posts