Muloghonto Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 7 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said: I don't understand Muloghonto's argument . What is the correlation between nudity and worse outcomes for society? Is there even a correlation let alone can you prove causation. ? If anything Western society is a lot tamer now than it was in the Swinging sixties but nudity is a lot more common now. Just give such movies an adult rating and be done with it. Trust adults to be responsible enough to make their own choices. Next time, tag me, so i can respond. My argument: 1. The societies that advocate nudity also have worse outcomes than ours when it comes to pretty much all child raising & family metrics not directly dictated by societal wealth ( such as malnourishment or child mortalty, etc) : they have higher child mental illness rate, juvenile crime rate, child substance abuse rate, higher % of broken families, etc. So why should we advocate or accept the unique values of societies that have objetively lower outcomes than our own ? 2. There is no proven causation in anything social studies related. Causation != correlation is an argument that can be only made in empirical fields, such as pure sciences. Not in opinion driven studies such as social studies. 3. Western society is not a lot tamer now than in the 60s. swinging 60s got the name because swinging became even acknowledged back then. Now, western society swings far more, cant even define what a man or a woman is and has orders of magnitude higher rape crimes than us or pretty much anywhere in Asia, with record increases in mental illnesses. 4. Adult being responsible or not is irrelevant to the social contract. In public space, one must follow the accepted laws of the land. Which is that nudity is a crime. In private space do whatever you wish, thats your perogative. But in public space, the majority opinion dictates behaviour protocols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijy Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 2 hours ago, goose said: a new career in astrology beckons! indeed, behold my powers...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
putrevus Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 On 1/27/2024 at 7:22 PM, Muloghonto said: Ofcourse it is. The values you espouse are western liberal values and not Indian. Choice, like everything has limits. Women share public space with everyone else, so common ground rules are required for all- if you wanna prance around naked in your own private property, thats your perogative. In public space, it is subject to the wishes of all. Again, tell me why we should accept said values you espouse, when they lead to far shittier outcomes for society. If i am free to not look at them, then they are free not to offend my eyes in a public space. Problem is on your side, espousing **** values with **** outcomes. The question is, why. Or are you unaware that your precious western liberal values lead to shittier outcomes for women, children and families than ours ? What are those Indian values, taking the freedom away from women, or burning them alive when their husbands died.Raping the women/ 4 year old girls like animals in buses or in their houses.Or parading them naked in front of people in the name of religion and caste. They are not prancing around naked in public places, they are wearing clothes which make them feel good or comfy. They are not asking in to log into their websites or go to movie theatres. Someone is watching them do these things or they want to do it themselves. It is nobody else business. Stop disguising this male chauvinistic nonsense as morality , value and religious ethics. It has got nothing do with Indian or western values.Freedom to women to express themselves without being judged is their basic right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 8 minutes ago, putrevus said: What are those Indian values, taking the freedom away from women, or burning them alive when their husbands died. You realise that your precious westerners burnt just as many women as witches per year as indians burnt widows ? 8 minutes ago, putrevus said: Raping the women/ 4 year old girls like animals in buses or in their houses.Or parading them naked in front of people in the name of religion and caste. Given that western world has 20 times higher rape per capita than Asia on average, why would you associate raping women with our values and not western values ? 8 minutes ago, putrevus said: They are not prancing around naked in public places, they are wearing clothes which make them feel good or comfy. They are not asking in to log into their websites or go to movie theatres. Someone is watching them do these things or they want to do it themselves. It is nobody else business. If you live in a society, then what is legal or not is society's business, determined by popular consensus. Again, you are yet to explain why should we adopt these inferior values, as its demonstrable that westerners have shittier outcome than Indians at virtually everything in the west itself ? 8 minutes ago, putrevus said: Stop disguising this male chauvinistic nonsense as morality , value and religious ethics. It has got nothing do with Indian or western values.Freedom to women to express themselves without being judged is their basic right. Man, woman or anyone else- you do not have the freedom to do as you wish in public common space. You have that freedom on you private property. In common property, which the government lands are, democratic mandate determines what is acceptable conduct or not. So you can stop your disgusting pro-rape & pro-woman's sexual subjugation values taught to you by your western liberal masters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
putrevus Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 18 hours ago, gattaca said: They can wear what they want but what is their contribution or role on cinema industry they shouldn’t act in such movies where nudity is needed. Apart from being eye candy I haven’t seen many Indian movie actress having big roles in movies apart from dances and songs. It is not our place to tell anyone how to earn their money. If they are comfortable with nudity, why are we stopping it. We want a society where men are not treating women just as sexual objects but equals.That starts with giving them freedom to chose their way of life. It is an evolution just like society, we had filmamkers in past who made pictures like Arth, Mirch Masala or pink. Hopefully we get more filmmakers who are more interested in making films where women are not just objectified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 3 minutes ago, putrevus said: It is not our place to tell anyone how to earn their money. If they are comfortable with nudity, why are we stopping it. In that case, we should legalise organ harvesting/selling and blood sports. There will be plenty of savage westerners who will enjoy seeing a man killed on live tv and there are plenty of poor people who will easily consent to having their heads chopped off on tv if we paid 10 lakh to their families. So by your logic, who are we to interfere, if its consensual, right ? 3 minutes ago, putrevus said: We want a society where men are not treating women just as sexual objects but equals.That starts with giving them freedom to chose their way of life. No, it doesnt. Didnt work for the west, where sex crimes skyrocketed after giving said freedom to behave however they wish and have remained orders of magnitude higher than in Asia. Ideology must lose to practicality and practical data of 50+ years shows that sexual liberation is a disastrous idea. 3 minutes ago, putrevus said: It is an evolution just like society, we had filmamkers in past who made pictures like Arth, Mirch Masala or pink. Hopefully we get more filmmakers who are more interested in making films where women are not just objectified. what you call evolution, i call decadent decay. We have seen that too in several civilisations in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikhil_cric Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 17 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Next time, tag me, so i can respond. My argument: 1. The societies that advocate nudity also have worse outcomes than ours when it comes to pretty much all child raising & family metrics not directly dictated by societal wealth ( such as malnourishment or child mortalty, etc) : they have higher child mental illness rate, juvenile crime rate, child substance abuse rate, higher % of broken families, etc. So why should we advocate or accept the unique values of societies that have objetively lower outcomes than our own ? 2. There is no proven causation in anything social studies related. Causation != correlation is an argument that can be only made in empirical fields, such as pure sciences. Not in opinion driven studies such as social studies. 3. Western society is not a lot tamer now than in the 60s. swinging 60s got the name because swinging became even acknowledged back then. Now, western society swings far more, cant even define what a man or a woman is and has orders of magnitude higher rape crimes than us or pretty much anywhere in Asia, with record increases in mental illnesses. 4. Adult being responsible or not is irrelevant to the social contract. In public space, one must follow the accepted laws of the land. Which is that nudity is a crime. In private space do whatever you wish, thats your perogative. But in public space, the majority opinion dictates behaviour protocols. Unless you can prove causation , then it's not an objective fact and it's merely your subjective opinion on the matter. In other words , there is no argument other than "It offends my cultural/religious sensibilities". Many ab original tribes , including the women , were bare chested . Did that result in children's mental illnesses and juvenile crime? Tribal societies rarely had mental illnesses. Without proving causation , as you yourself admitted , you are claiming that it leads to objectively lower outcomes. The dissonance in that statement surely cannot be lost on you? And finally, nobody is calling for nudity in public spaces . Theatres and streaming devices in your houses are not "public" spaces. They are private spaces which not everyone has access to. Let individuals decide whether they want to consume such content or not. Vijy and Lone Wolf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 46 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said: Unless you can prove causation , then it's not an objective fact and it's merely your subjective opinion on the matter. In other words , there is no argument other than "It offends my cultural/religious sensibilities". Many ab original tribes , including the women , were bare chested . Did that result in children's mental illnesses and juvenile crime? Tribal societies rarely had mental illnesses. Without proving causation , as you yourself admitted , you are claiming that it leads to objectively lower outcomes. The dissonance in that statement surely cannot be lost on you? And finally, nobody is calling for nudity in public spaces . Theatres and streaming devices in your houses are not "public" spaces. They are private spaces which not everyone has access to. Let individuals decide whether they want to consume such content or not. Facts!!! Can't argue with this logic. Also Found that North Indians are more conservative compared to more liberal South Indians yet they happily consume adult content from both Bollywood & notably South Industry. Culture alone can't be the reason. Vijy and Lord 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 On 1/28/2024 at 10:43 PM, Muloghonto said: it is breaking the law actually. And yes, they are free to follow the law or suffer consequences of breaking the law. That is also a choice right there. Which law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 43 minutes ago, Lord said: Which law? Section 293 and 294 deal with obscenity in public space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 13 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Section 293 and 294 deal with obscenity in public space Obscenity is not defined. Even a saree could be obscene to some and not to other There is whole censor board to deal with those things. 293 mentions victim has to be under 20 yrs old. They put enough disclaimers to deal with it technically. Vijy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 9 minutes ago, Lord said: Obscenity is not defined. Even a saree could be obscene to some and not to other There is whole censor board to deal with those things. 293 mentions victim has to be under 20 yrs old. They put enough disclaimers to deal with it technically. 293 is the law that deals with porn. All cases have to be registered by police (FIR) and convicted in court. The censor board deals with movies and they have guidelines from the govt . Earlier even kissing scenes were banned from 40s-80s. Later they started allowing that. It wil take a while to allow nudity by the cendor board. Section 294 deals with nudity in public space. 293 is sale of obscene (nudity) to adults less than 20 years old. So, if in an illegal movie , a actress goes topless, she can be booked by this law as she is in the act of sale, if they catch a teenager watching that illegal movie. Vijy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 1 minute ago, coffee_rules said: 293 is the law that deals with porn. All cases have to be registered by police (FIR) and convicted in court. The censor board deals with movies and they have guidelines from the govt . Earlier even kissing scenes were banned from 40s-80s. Later they started allowing that. It wil take a while to allow nudity by the cendor board. Section 294 deals with nudity in public space. 293 is sale of obscene (nudity) to adults less than 20 years old. So, if in an illegal movie , a actress goes topless, she can be booked by this law as she is in the act of sale, if they catch a teenager watching that illegal movie. Don't think this thread is about porn. I'm referring to mainstream films that go through censor board before being released. putrevus and Chaos 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said: Unless you can prove causation , then it's not an objective fact and it's merely your subjective opinion on the matter. Correlation is sufficient in social studies and the correlation is strong. I dont have to use standards of empirical science in fields where they do not use it themselves. 3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said: In other words , there is no argument other than "It offends my cultural/religious sensibilities". Many ab original tribes , including the women , were bare chested . Did that result in children's mental illnesses and juvenile crime? We don't know- no data. 3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said: Tribal societies rarely had mental illnesses. Without proving causation , as you yourself admitted , you are claiming that it leads to objectively lower outcomes. Yes, because correlation is strong in this case. If X is significantly worse than Y and X has a unique attribute called Z, while X is a tiny minority and Y is a much bigger data set, then its logical to say avoid Z. 3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said: The dissonance in that statement surely cannot be lost on you? And finally, nobody is calling for nudity in public spaces . Theatres and streaming devices in your houses are not "public" spaces. They are private spaces which not everyone has access to. Let individuals decide whether they want to consume such content or not. No. Censors exist for a reason and individuals do not get to decide what content is accesible - that is perogative of society. accessing product is a public act, society has the right to control, restrict or ban any consumable product they choose to, that which isnt essential for survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 17 minutes ago, Lord said: Don't think this thread is about porn. I'm referring to mainstream films that go through censor board before being released. I quoted the law. Censor board has guidelines to not allow nudity in movies it certifies.The guidlines come from laws of the constitution. Other movies will be illegal and comes under the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 1 minute ago, coffee_rules said: I quoted the law. Censor board has guidelines to not allow nudity in movies it certifies.The guidlines come from laws of the constitution. Other movies will be illegal and comes under the law. Yes and I am saying no law is being broken as movies are passed by censor board before release. It refers to Bollywood only as mentioned in title coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 8 hours ago, Lord said: Yes and I am saying no law is being broken as movies are passed by censor board before release. It refers to Bollywood only as mentioned in title So then its fine for censor board to censor nudity from being released, period. Its their perogative to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I think there are two ways to look at it. Do you think Khajuraho also represents India? Everyone who are arguing @Muloghonto are justifying based on that. Now second part which is tougher to answer, I think Mulo is coming from. Do you think females from your own family be inspired and adapt Khajuraho? Even I cant answer this because I dont see anything wrong with other who want to adapt Khajuraho, But I will rather like my family mebers to take inspiration from other parts of Indian culture. Yes I am Hippocrat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 On 1/28/2024 at 4:53 AM, Muloghonto said: Because the lessons from western society should be obvious in what happens when you have too much freedom. And no, there is no such statute regarding freedom. Free country means you are free from government oppression and freedom of speech. Not to have public nudity. Why should we follow these idiotic western ideals, when it leads to objectively inferior outcome than our way, which is far in line with common human ethics worldwide ? Why do you insist on calling it public nudity? Except for designated areas earmarked by the respective states and except for certain religious people, public nudity is illegal in India. U/S 294 IPC. Nudity on screen is a different matter altogether. It is on screen, if at all, and has been regulated by a statutory GoI body; The Censor Board. Lets make that distinction. Vijy and Lord 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 On 1/28/2024 at 7:26 AM, jf1gp_1 said: nudity in some way shape or form has been around Indian cinema for a while now. Sharmila tagore, zeenat aman have dressed in a manner which was considered way ahead for our conservative society. Parinda which released way back in early 90s had Madhuri and Anil in a much talked about intimate scene. The difference today is social media. Had it been back then am sure Parinda would have been discussed for all the wrong reasons. Nana Patekar's role is Parinda is so under rated. Always gives me the creeps. One of the scariest roles as a villain. He doesn't scream. He doesn't behave like an out of control emo. Just cold calculated dialogues and crazy eye movement. Scary. Chaos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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