Jasprit Bumrah - Best average in last 100 years (min 150 wkts)

[Rightarmfast]

27 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Ambrose was considered the out and out best bowler in ICC rankings for most of the 90s. No one considered the two Ws to be a deadlier duo than the two Cs. Especially not in England, Australia or South Africa. Ambrose is by far the best bowler of the 90s. not the best bowler of all time.that is marshall. 

 

Maybe you heard a different commentary. 

Here's my thought on Ambrose: He had a height advantage, and playing in a team which had a history of fast bowling. With some good fast bowling partners, it was easier to create terror. Had he been bowling for Sri Lanka, his threat would have reduced by 50%. He wasn't too high on variations unlike Wasim and the likes. Not saying he is not a legend. He is a legend but not the best.

 

Marshall: Again one of the best in history. But not a 150k's bowler. I would say Marshall was an 80's version of Dale Steyn. 

[Muloghonto]

12 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Maybe you heard a different commentary. 

No. I didn't. Also, as i said, check ICC rankings. The closest to Ambrose throughout the 90s was Donald. Not Wasim or McGrath. And the gap between Ambrose & Donald in ranking points was wider than between McGrath and Pollock in the early 2000s. 

12 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Here's my thought on Ambrose: He had a height advantage, and playing in a team which had a history of fast bowling. With some good fast bowling partners, it was easier to create terror. Had he been bowling for Sri Lanka, his threat would have reduced by 50%. He wasn't too high on variations unlike Wasim and the likes. Not saying he is not a legend. He is a legend but not the best.

 

Marshall: Again one of the best in history. But not a 150k's bowler. I would say Marshall was an 80's version of Dale Steyn. 

He also played for a team that was basically today's bangladesh + an ATG batter for batting. Man defended 100-150 run 4th innings scores more frequently than literally any other bowler in history of cricket. Despite this, he has a bowling average that no one has matched since him over a full career. had he India or Australia's batting lineup, he'd have faaaaaar better bowling average and far more wickets, as he'd not be stuck defending 80-100 runs and ending with figures of 15-10-25-1 in the 4th innings as the opposition wins by scoring 90/3. 

 

Marshall was a 150kph bowler in his prime. Just like Steyn was. Marshall was far smarter than Steyn, far nastier than Steyn and knew how to use the crease better than any bowler ever. i think you and i have a different concept of what a 150kph bowler is. I think of a 150kph bowler as someone who bowls between 147-152/153 kph for extended periods ( as in their prime). Not that every single ball or most of them will be 150kph+.  I think you think the latter way, which means there's like only 3-4 150kph bowler ever, such as Holding, Akhtar,Lee and Bond. 

The class between Ambrose and Wasim is easily seen by how well they performed against the best players of fast bowlers in their era: Australia, South Africa & England. Especially in their home conditions. 

 

True, Ambrose didnt have big banana swing like Akram or serious seam movement like Pollock & deVilliers. but what he did have was better control and accuracy than any pacer since him, by a significant margin. 

 

[MediumPacer]

19 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

animal protein is the biggest driver for height in humans. 
The biggest proof of this, is China: The Chinese population have significantly increased their average height in kids born in the last 30 years, due to exponentially more protein available in their diet in the last 30 years as compared to before. 

Yes, i know, you 'can' replace animal protein with plant protein. But not very effectively, since animal protein has one untalked of advantage over plant protein:its usually pure protein & some fat, with almost zero carbs in it. Ie, eat a piece of chicken/mutton/fish/beef etc: you get anywhere from 70-95% protein and 5-30% fat. 
Replace it with plant protein, such as beans, lentils, etc and you are stuck with 30-40% carbs in the mix. So its very hard to consume adequate plant protein to spur height growth, without massively over-eating carbs and getting fat. 

 

Yes,I know. But it doesn't work that well on Indian bodies,as our bodies we tend to be weak and unathletic.

[Nikhil_cric]

20 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

animal protein is the biggest driver for height in humans. 
The biggest proof of this, is China: The Chinese population have significantly increased their average height in kids born in the last 30 years, due to exponentially more protein available in their diet in the last 30 years as compared to before. 

Yes, i know, you 'can' replace animal protein with plant protein. But not very effectively, since animal protein has one untalked of advantage over plant protein:its usually pure protein & some fat, with almost zero carbs in it. Ie, eat a piece of chicken/mutton/fish/beef etc: you get anywhere from 70-95% protein and 5-30% fat. 
Replace it with plant protein, such as beans, lentils, etc and you are stuck with 30-40% carbs in the mix. So its very hard to consume adequate plant protein to spur height growth, without massively over-eating carbs and getting fat. 

 

 

This is my understanding as well. Consumption of animal protein in India even among the meat eaters is nowhere near enough. 

 

And unfortunately you have a majoritarian culture that celebrates vegetarianism as a cultural and ethical ideal . So, even though incomes have gone up in the last 30 years, diets have hardly changed from being carb-heavy.   

 

 

[singhvivek141]

20 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Maybe you heard a different commentary. 

Here's my thought on Ambrose: He had a height advantage, and playing in a team which had a history of fast bowling. With some good fast bowling partners, it was easier to create terror. Had he been bowling for Sri Lanka, his threat would have reduced by 50%. He wasn't too high on variations unlike Wasim and the likes. Not saying he is not a legend. He is a legend but not the best.

 

Marshall: Again one of the best in history. But not a 150k's bowler. I would say Marshall was an 80's version of Dale Steyn. 

Anderson has more variations that Steyn...but we all agree Steyn is notches above Anderson as a bowler.

Same with Wasim, he was skillful, yet he was outbowled was Ambrose who has apparently limited skillset.

 

Fact is likes of Ambrose & McG looks boring...but they operate on the "fine margins". Little bit of movement off the deck and it takes the edge of the bat. They won't hit the timber often and move the stumps cartwheeling...but they will consistently push the batters on the edge.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Anderson has more variations that Steyn...but we all agree Steyn is notches above Anderson as a bowler.

Same with Wasim, he was skillful, yet he was outbowled was Ambrose who has apparently limited skillset.

 

Fact is likes of Ambrose & McG looks boring...but they operate on the "fine margins". Little bit of movement off the deck and it takes the edge of the bat. They won't hit the timber often and move the stumps cartwheeling...but they will consistently push the batters on the edge.

What @Muloghonto is refusing to acknowledge, by design or by bias, and what you haven't checked is that Ambrose has played 52 test matches, which is more than 50% of his total matches played, in his home conditions. And has been consistent in home conditions. He has played very few matches in tough subcontinent. 

When it comes to some of the other bowlers, they do not have such limited performance outside of their comfort zone. 

 

Ambrose or Mcgrath were not boring. But they were more intimidating because they had an equally lethal backup bowlers bowling in tandem. The batters on such pitches were already scared. 

But when you have a lethal bowling backup, in your own courtyard, thats a different level of comfort zone. 

Edited June 22, 2024 by Rightarmfast

[Muloghonto]

On 6/22/2024 at 8:46 AM, Rightarmfast said:

What @Muloghonto is refusing to acknowledge, by design or by bias, and what you haven't checked is that Ambrose has played 52 test matches, which is more than 50% of his total matches played, in his home conditions. And has been consistent in home conditions. He has played very few matches in tough subcontinent. 

When it comes to some of the other bowlers, they do not have such limited performance outside of their comfort zone. 

 

Ambrose or Mcgrath were not boring. But they were more intimidating because they had an equally lethal backup bowlers bowling in tandem. The batters on such pitches were already scared. 

But when you have a lethal bowling backup, in your own courtyard, thats a different level of comfort zone. 

The few matches he's played in subcontinent he's done quite well and is in the top 5 foreign bowlers in average and wickets taken in both England and Australia- somewhere where our pacers struggle. so playing 52 of 100 matches at home doesnt make a difference. 

 

[bones]

I didn't realise he was 30, I thought he was younger, maybe 28. Only 2 years I know but that's prime time for fast bowlers. He might be able to keep up his pace for 2 maybe 3 years but I doubt it. All the greats started to slow down at this age and then their skills with the ball came into play. He has a lot of skills but can he hold off injury with his action is the question.

 

An awesome bowler, in my opinion he was already the greatest T20 bowler, yesterday just created an ever bigger gap.

 

In terms of completeness, I maintain he needs to play another 40 tests and carry on taking wickets at his current rate to be in the dicussion of all time best. I don't think he will play that many because there's just too much travel these days and too much 50 over trash.

[MediumPacer]

6 minutes ago, bones said:

I didn't realise he was 30, I thought he was younger, maybe 28. Only 2 years I know but that's prime time for fast bowlers. He might be able to keep up his pace for 2 maybe 3 years but I doubt it. All the greats started to slow down at this age and then their skills with the ball came into play. He has a lot of skills but can he hold off injury with his action is the question.

 

An awesome bowler, in my opinion he was already the greatest T20 bowler, yesterday just created an ever bigger gap.

 

In terms of completeness, I maintain he needs to play another 40 tests and carry on taking wickets at his current rate to be in the dicussion of all time best. I don't think he will play that many because there's just too much travel these days and too much 50 over trash.

How many tests have the likes of Garner,Roberts,holding played?

[bones]

3 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

How many tests have the likes of Garner,Roberts,holding played?

Significantly more. Holding played 60 tests over 12 years. Bumrah is at 36 over 6 years. If Bumrah plays all the tests for the next 6 years he could end up there with Holding.

 

But there are other guys who did it for way way more. Ambrose and McGrath averaged low 20s with 100 and 130 odd tests.

 

For me McGrath is the most underrated bowler of all time and perhaps the GOAT bowler. If he was from the subcontinent with his stats, he's put Tendulkar/Wasim to shade.

[singhvivek141]

21 minutes ago, bones said:

I didn't realise he was 30, I thought he was younger, maybe 28. Only 2 years I know but that's prime time for fast bowlers. He might be able to keep up his pace for 2 maybe 3 years but I doubt it. All the greats started to slow down at this age and then their skills with the ball came into play. He has a lot of skills but can he hold off injury with his action is the question.

 

An awesome bowler, in my opinion he was already the greatest T20 bowler, yesterday just created an ever bigger gap.

 

In terms of completeness, I maintain he needs to play another 40 tests and carry on taking wickets at his current rate to be in the dicussion of all time best. I don't think he will play that many because there's just too much travel these days and too much 50 over trash.

Well has has done so far good in 36 tests...even if he ends with 55-60 tests at the similar avg...I would consider he has done enough.

 

With so much potential available in India...we should Ideally find more Bumrah's who all can play 40-50 tests each instead of relying on one Bumrah to play 80-90 Tests just to prove his longevity.

 

Edited June 30, 2024 by singhvivek141

[MediumPacer]

3 minutes ago, bones said:

Significantly more. Holding played 60 tests over 12 years. Bumrah is at 36 over 6 years. If Bumrah plays all the tests for the next 6 years he could end up there with Holding.

 

But there are other guys who did it for way way more. Ambrose and McGrath averaged low 20s with 100 and 130 odd tests.

 

For me McGrath is the most underrated bowler of all time and perhaps the GOAT bowler. If he was from the subcontinent with his stats, he's put Tendulkar/Wasim to shade.

Roberts didn't even get to 50.

 

Even 60 ain't that many,you said need another 40 test , that's nearly 80 test in total. By those standards most won't make it .

 

 

[bones]

43 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

Roberts didn't even get to 50.

 

Even 60 ain't that many,you said need another 40 test , that's nearly 80 test in total. By those standards most won't make it .

 

 

Yes and that's why he can't be in the GOAT debate even though skills/ability wise he should be.

[bones]

48 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Well has has done so far good in 36 tests...even if he ends with 55-60 tests at the similar avg...I would consider he has done enough.

 

With so much potential available in India...we should Ideally find more Bumrah's who all can play 40-50 tests each instead of relying on one Bumrah to play 80-90 Tests just to prove his longevity.

 

Fast bowlers are like magic dust - you really struggle to find those elite ones. Bumrahs and McGraths etc don't just fall off trees even in a cricket mad country like India.

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, bones said:

Fast bowlers are like magic dust - you really struggle to find those elite ones. Bumrahs and McGraths etc don't just fall off trees even in a cricket mad country like India.

Well even after losing McG, Australia was still able to find likes of MJ, Starc, Hazelwood, Cummins no ?

SA too after losing Donald & Pollock found out Steyn & Morkel....and now Coetzee, Rabada & Nortje.

 

You may not be able to find one 100% Bumrah...but if you be able to find 3 bowlers who are even if 85% of what one Bumrah can do, we are good.

Edited June 30, 2024 by singhvivek141

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Well even after losing McG, Australia was still able to find likes of MJ, Starc, Hazelwood, Cummins no ?

SA too after losing Donald & Pollock found out Steyn & Morkel....and now Coetzee, Rabada & Nortje.

 

You may not be able to find one 100% Bumrah...but if you be able to find 3 bowlers who are even if 85% of what one Bumrah can do, we are good.

oraiiiii we jeteeegaaaa raaaa

[Frustrated]

Bumrah's eco.rate in this WT20 has been 4.17 per over.  And average runs conceded per wicket is 8.26.    This is surrreal.  No words can describe this feat.    

[Ultimate_Game]

30 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

Bumrah's eco.rate in this WT20 has been 4.17 per over.  And average runs conceded per wicket is 8.26.    This is surrreal.  No words can describe this feat.    

 

An amazing amazing bowler! This tourney was all thanks to Boom Boom Bumrah! 

 

Deserved a couple of other tourneys and am sure will win some more before he hangs up his boots. I haven't seen such a complete bowler across formats, and nobody comes close when you put all the 3 formats together