Kron Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 1 hour ago, bones said: Amazing bowler - very worried whenever we play against him - you're guaranteed troubles on all surfaces. Average of 20.7 over 36 games in tests and 23.6 in the 50 over version. I do want the 50 over format to be buried once and for all but in the format that counts his average is remarkable. If he can can keep it below 22 and rack up another 40 tests I will put him in my top 5. Currently he's just outside my top 10 and that's purely because he's played far fewer tests. If he somehow manages to get to 100 tests and maintains the same average he goes to number 1. Right now Steyn, McGrath, Mashall, Rabada, Garner, Ambrose, Hadlee, Philander, Cummins, Donald, Trueman, Murali, Imran Khan, Pollock and the 2 Ws to name a few are above him because they did it for 20, 30 more tests at least. For some of these bowlers that's 5 years worth of cricket. He has the potential and good luck to him with it. Impact and match winning ability wise he is easily better than any baki bowler and only the west Indian greats and a few others are better like mcg etc. Lol at philander and Pollock being ahead. raki05 and Ultimate_Game 1 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, bones said: Amazing bowler - very worried whenever we play against him - you're guaranteed troubles on all surfaces. Average of 20.7 over 36 games in tests and 23.6 in the 50 over version. I do want the 50 over format to be buried once and for all but in the format that counts his average is remarkable. If he can can keep it below 22 and rack up another 40 tests I will put him in my top 5. Currently he's just outside my top 10 and that's purely because he's played far fewer tests. If he somehow manages to get to 100 tests and maintains the same average he goes to number 1. Right now Steyn, McGrath, Mashall, Rabada, Garner, Ambrose, Hadlee, Philander, Cummins, Donald, Trueman, Murali, Imran Khan, Pollock and the 2 Ws to name a few are above him because they did it for 20, 30 more tests at least. For some of these bowlers that's 5 years worth of cricket. He has the potential and good luck to him with it. Rabada, Philander have failed big time in SC. Worse than Mahela outside SC, there is a reason RSA hasn't drawn one test in this part of the world for a decade. I am not even talking about stats, just the impact, like what Ashwin did in 2020-21 Australia. Cummins too is coasting on his home numbers, in India he has had zero impact. Bumrah OTOH has had a major role in 2 series wins in Aus, has also given multiple matchwinning performances in RSA, Eng. Edited June 15, 2024 by Gollum Kron, raki05, express bowling and 2 others 1 1 3 Link to comment
Gollum Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 56 minutes ago, Kron said: Steyn Waqar (not a great for me but ok) all failed in ko stages plenty of times. Ambrose? If you play under a fodder like rohit then you are bound to fail. Meek timid captain. If Bumrah fires in one WTC final or any world event, his stocks will rise sky high. All other areas covered, his bowling against bazballers on pattas earlier this year is something Rabada, Cummins, Hazlewood etc. have never come close to achieving. raki05 and Kron 1 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 58 minutes ago, Kron said: Steyn Waqar (not a great for me but ok) all failed in ko stages plenty of times. Agree, almost all Saffers were serial chokers in KOs. Even GOAT contenders like ABDV, Steyn, Donald. Smith, Amla, Morkel, Pollock, Kirsten, Gibbs, nobody fired for them. Kallis I will give a pass because he won them the 1998 mini WC in BD. MOTM in the final, MOTS. Total domination. Waqar is a curious case, I never considered him a threat in big games. Razzaq, Shoaib were more important players for Pak. raki05, Kron and Vilander 3 Link to comment
Gollum Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 (edited) 5-6 years from now I expect Bumrah to be a GOAT contender. In 2018 series in WI I remember some WI commentator remark how Bumrah reminded him of Andy Roberts.....now Andy along with Lillee were the pioneers of modern fast bowling, other WI guys and Imran/Hadlee took over from them. Highest praise. Kuldeep is another guy who if properly backed can be in the conversation of second best spinner of modern era (last 50 years say) after Warne. His ceiling is damn high. Edited June 15, 2024 by Gollum Kron and raki05 2 Link to comment
Majestic Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 1 hour ago, Kron said: Yes ok. Waqar is better than bumrah. His record is unbeatable in Australia and India. What a bowler he was. Peak ability doesn't matter. Only wickets. If only wickets matter then broad can be greatet. Bored greater than waqar. Also not even going to mention tampered balls etc and playing against weak batsmen in the early 90s. My only argument here is not to put yourself beyond time and already start arguing for greatness. Bumrah still has some more years to go before he can be mentioned in the topmost league. You may not need 600 test wickets but given that his career included a couple of long breaks due to injuries and often getting rested in between games which is why he has managed to pick only 160 wickets in 6.5 years means he needs to survive longer to really make a case for him as one of the top tier bowler of all-time. You can't become a top 5 bowler of all-time without picking 300 test wickets or 600+ international wickets( considering Bumrah is all format great). Kron 1 Link to comment
Kron Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 1 hour ago, Gollum said: If Bumrah fires in one WTC final or any world event, his stocks will rise sky high. All other areas covered, his bowling against bazballers on pattas earlier this year is something Rabada, Cummins, Hazlewood etc. have never come close to achieving. Yea fair enough. Agreed. Link to comment
Kron Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 42 minutes ago, Majestic said: My only argument here is not to put yourself beyond time and already start arguing for greatness. Bumrah still has some more years to go before he can be mentioned in the topmost league. You may not need 600 test wickets but given that his career included a couple of long breaks due to injuries and often getting rested in between games which is why he has managed to pick only 160 wickets in 6.5 years means he needs to survive longer to really make a case for him as one of the top tier bowler of all-time. You can't become a top 5 bowler of all-time without picking 300 test wickets or 600+ international wickets( considering Bumrah is all format great). I think you should also factor in impact fear factor and match winning ability. There bumrah trumps the baki bowlers easily. But fair enough. Longeivity too is important. However there was a chart posted on reddit. Bumrah already has played 24 tests in sena vs 33 odd by wasim? That's crazy. For me if he wins us a series in England next time plus a draw on series win in nz then he is up there surely. Also he needs to win a wtc title. So basically wasim played more at home and west indies i guess which is fair cause at his prime west indies pak and Aussies were at the top. raki05 and Rightarmfast 1 1 Link to comment
Rightarmfast Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 4 hours ago, Gollum said: Let him deliver a match winning performance in one ICC KO. This is his 9th year in international cricket, yet shits his pant in Asia Cup KO. Never seen a potential ATG fail 100% of the times in KOs. By that logic, Ambrose, Walsh, Shoaib Akhtar, Dale Steyn, Shane Bond, Gough, Flintoff, Botham, Fannie de villiers, Donald, Pollock and many more, they were all pedestrian bowlers. I like your logic, though! Link to comment
Rightarmfast Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 4 hours ago, Majestic said: 8 years now? Yeah, 8 years where he managed to pick 159 wickets. Waqar Younis, a not so legendary fast bowler, picked 159 wickets in 4 years and ended with almost 800 all format international wickets. Hmm.. care to check which countries did he perform against and in were the wickets in home grounds or abroad? Also, do check for bottle caps and vaseline! raki05 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 8 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said: By that logic, Ambrose, Walsh, Shoaib Akhtar, Dale Steyn, Shane Bond, Gough, Flintoff, Botham, Fannie de villiers, Donald, Pollock and many more, they were all pedestrian bowlers. I like your logic, though! I never used the word pedestrian, don't imagine things. Shoaib's spell broke NZ in 1999 SF. Many on that list didn't play enough KOs. Bumrah plays at least one almost every year Link to comment
Rightarmfast Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 9 minutes ago, Gollum said: I never used the word pedestrian, don't imagine things. Shoaib's spell broke NZ in 1999 SF. Many on that list didn't play enough KOs. Bumrah plays at least one almost every year You didnt use pedestrian. And you are not even selective with your biases. Yes! Link to comment
Majestic Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said: Hmm.. care to check which countries did he perform against and in were the wickets in home grounds or abroad? Also, do check for bottle caps and vaseline! He performed against everyone and in all conditions at his peak(1990-1994). If you go by poor performance in 1-2 nation logic, even Pat Cummins averages would be worse away than at home and do check for sandpaper in his case then. Anyways, the discussion is about Bumrah. how many test wickets he has now - 159?? Name a truly great fast bowler since 1990 with wickets tally near him? The best I can think of are Shoaib Akhtar, Shane Bond, Ian Bishop. McGrath Ambrose Wasim Donald Waqar Walsh Pollock Steyn Anderson These names have all picked 350+ test wickets. Bumrah is an all formats great but he would need about 300 test wickets to get into conversation of top 5 fast bowlers of all-time. Once he reaches the 300 mark, his average may slip down to 22-23, his country wise record may go down in couple of nations so debating based on 150 wickets is absurd. Longevity deprives you of all the luxuries you may have in a short span of your career. Edited June 15, 2024 by Majestic Adamant 1 Link to comment
BacktoCricaddict Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 He is 30 now. All I want is for him to be injury-free and dominate for 4 more years. Then retire at his peak, leaving his legacy intact. What tarnishes most players, esp fast bowlers is hanging around to beat some arbitrary all-time record. For a test bowler, average and strike-rate matter. No other stat is worth hanging around for. raki05, Gollum, TellTheTruth and 3 others 1 5 Link to comment
TellTheTruth Posted June 15, 2024 Share Posted June 15, 2024 Also when ranking bumrah amongst all time greats you have to take into consideration the fact that he is the only Test cricketer in history to play almost exclusively in difficult test series away from home. He is naturally not going to get as many wickets as others that play half or more test matches at home and who play often against weaker teams. Gollum and raki05 1 1 Link to comment
Kron Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 1 hour ago, TellTheTruth said: Also when ranking bumrah amongst all time greats you have to take into consideration the fact that he is the only Test cricketer in history to play almost exclusively in difficult test series away from home. He is naturally not going to get as many wickets as others that play half or more test matches at home and who play often against weaker teams. What's funny is they were saying bumrah won't be as good in India. And loool he destroyed the bazzballing in form batsmen in that series. Averaged 16. No one else comes close. He is even better than steyn in Asian conditions. He doesn't even play minnows much apart from west indies here and there and some times lanka. He averaged 11 vs sri lanka. He doesn't stat pad like the waqar Younis and Phil trundler etc and many more. TellTheTruth, Gollum, express bowling and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment
Gollum Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 Our bowling since 2017 has become so well rounded that wickets have to be shared among 4-5 guys. That is why so few 5fers, 10fers. Even on Indian pitches, you have Ashwin, Jadeja, Kuldeep sharing the spoils, that's 3 great spinners to have (Lyon/Swann level all of them and on SC tracks superior to Warne) which is a rarity in the sport.....then Bumrah, Shami, before that Umesh who was king on our pitches. Same in SENA. So even 300 wickets is tough, was the same for the original WI quartet also, Garner, Roberts, Holding all finished with 200-250 test wickets, and that team had no spinner!!!!! Can't be harsh on Bumrah if he ends below 300 wickets, same with Shami bhai. I can't remember another team in modern cricket history which had 5 out and out wicket taking machines. That is why despite having 3 middle order bats averaging in low 20s (and one dud opener), we still held on to ICC number one ranking in recent times. Lord and Kron 2 Link to comment
Kron Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 49 minutes ago, Gollum said: Our bowling since 2017 has become so well rounded that wickets have to be shared among 4-5 guys. That is why so few 5fers, 10fers. Even on Indian pitches, you have Ashwin, Jadeja, Kuldeep sharing the spoils, that's 3 great spinners to have (Lyon/Swann level all of them and on SC tracks superior to Warne) which is a rarity in the sport.....then Bumrah, Shami, before that Umesh who was king on our pitches. Same in SENA. So even 300 wickets is tough, was the same for the original WI quartet also, Garner, Roberts, Holding all finished with 200-250 test wickets, and that team had no spinner!!!!! Can't be harsh on Bumrah if he ends below 300 wickets, same with Shami bhai. I can't remember another team in modern cricket history which had 5 out and out wicket taking machines. That is why despite having 3 middle order bats averaging in low 20s (and one dud opener), we still held on to ICC number one ranking in recent times. If only we had a smith or head. Instead of fraudli and pudgy roro Link to comment
Singh bling Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 On 6/14/2024 at 11:16 PM, Muloghonto said: you dont beat players for pace by being more menacing and due to the pitch. you do it with sheer pace. Holding & Marshall were definitely 150+ zone, Holding is the most consistently fast bowler to've ever played the game. Roberts is the only one where there is genuine question as to whether he was 150+ or not at his peak ( Garner wasn't). 75-76 study in Australia measured Holding and Roberts above 150 . Holding was only 22 at that time Link to comment
putrevus Posted June 16, 2024 Share Posted June 16, 2024 (edited) Bumrah is not better test bowler than Marshall yet. Marshall took 370 plus wickets at 20.99. Marshall had to contend for wickets with 3 other great fast bowlers. Let Bumrah reach 250 wickets before putting him as an ATG great fast bowler. He had two series on his hand but both test series, he came up very short one as a captain and anohter as bowler. So let us pump the brakes about putting him into ATG category. Ambrose and Walsh have more test wickets than Marshall but they themselves have told many times Marshall is best fast bowler from WI.Ambrose was not far behind Marshall as test bowler but Marshall was more skilled.Ambrose was far better odi bowler than Marshall. Whiteball cricket just like Steyn, Marshall is not ATG. Shami has outbowled Bumrah in 50 over world cups both in 2019 and 2023.So where does that put Bumrah in whiteball cricket? Edited June 16, 2024 by putrevus Adamant 1 Link to comment
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